Are the miner fees really the only filter we need?

[PepeLapiu2]

So in this whole spam war, and for the last 5 years since this spam attack started, we've been told over and over that Bitcoin doesn't need any spam filters. That the miner fees are the only filter needed to filter out spam.

And this was used as an excuse for the last 5 years to do nothing about the growing spam on chain. And it was also used as one of the excuses to drop a spam filter with core 30.

"The fees are the only filter we need."

So we've been told for the last 5 years.

But is it even true?

Is there some magic smoke in the fees that somehow chases away only spammers but not actual real Bitcoin users?

The answer is absolutely not. The idea that fees are enough to weed out spam is absurd. We have been gaslighted for the last 5 years into believing an absolute lie.

Let's just look at the Segwit exploit for example, which is pretty much the most popular spam right now.

When I use Segwit, I usually get a 50% Segwit discount at best.

But when spammers cram their dickbutt.jpeg in Segwit, they routinely get a 75%+ discount. And here is an example of this:

https://mempool.space/tx/d8fcb4e1773dab015310c593f0612f0b9b029d24e01416f26414a357a2c13093

In the case above, the inscription got a 74.8% discount.

So if spammers routinely get a bigger discount than monetary Bitcoiners, what are the fees really filtering in the end?

Seriously, when spammers get a bigger discount than monetary users, who is getting filtered out by the fees?

I would submit that Satoshi understood that fees might not be enough to weed out spam. This is what Satoshi replied when confronted with the idea of Lady Gaga videos on the chain:

That's one of the reasons for transaction fees.  There are other things we can do if necessary.

So whenever we are told that the fees are the only filter we need, they are lying to us.

And when they tell us that the spam can't be stopped, and we might as well ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist, we are again being lied to.

Run Knots friends, run BIP110

Cheers, Pepe

[wxxyrqa]

It can be said that commissions work as an economic filter, but it is important to remember that they cannot distinguish spam from legitimate transactions. It all happens very simply.If you paid more, you end up getting your share of the block.  Given this, we can conclude that in this case ordinary users suffer. In my opinion, it is better to ask the question differently, that is, the problem may not be in the fee, but in how the protocol processes transactions that differ from each other.

[CryptSafe]

It can be said that commissions work as an economic filter, but it is important to remember that they cannot distinguish spam from legitimate transactions. It all happens very simply.If you paid more, you end up getting your share of the block.  Given this, we can conclude that in this case ordinary users suffer. In my opinion, it is better to ask the question differently, that is, the problem may not be in the fee, but in how the protocol processes transactions that differ from each other.

This is just like the highest bidder takes it all. The higher the transaction fee, the faster the confirmation, as miners would be jostling to confirm transactions/mining of blocks, they would also accept higher fees also for whoever is willing to pay for it, and once that happens, the other normal transactions are neglected, hence you see the delay in confirmation when your fee is very low. They prioritize higher fees in most cases because they have a lot to benefit from such transactions.

[slaman29]

I don't know if anybody ever said fees is the only thing, like you pointed out satoshi said there are always other things.

But I'm not sure what you're trying to make the main point here. Are we saying we need to censor? Or just saying that spam should wait and be taxed? I like the second idea.

[PepeLapiu2]

This is just like the highest bidder takes it all.

You are not factoring in the Segwit discount. Real Bitcoin monetary transactions get a smaller Segwit discount than spam transactions that use the Segwit exploit. So a spam transaction that effectively pays less in fees will be more profitable to the miner than a monetary transaction of the same size.

I don't know if anybody ever said fees is the only thing

You never heard that "The miner fees are the filter"? That's what I have been told over and over for the last 5 years. The implication was that the miner fees should be the only filter. Which, as I already explained, is effectively filtering out legit Bitcoiners with smaller Segwit discount.

But I'm not sure what you're trying to make the main point here.

My point is that for the last 5 years, every time the nodes asked for something to be done about spam, the excuse to do nothing was that the fees are the filter, and anything else is either in effective or censorship.
And even when they decided to blow up a spam filter last year, they claimed it didn't work, it's censorship, and the fees are the only filter we need. Clearly we were gaslit.

Are we saying we need to censor?

Preventing spam on Bitcoin is not censorship. No more than not allowing a Christian preach in a Muslim or Jewish temple constitutes a breach of your freedom of religion. Bitcoin is money. You are free to use Bitcoin to buy a pancake or a jpeg. But neither your pancake nor your jpeg belong on the Bitcoin chain.

Or just saying that spam should wait and be taxed? I like the second idea.

If you want to make it harder for spammers on Bitcoin, you should run a Knots node, or even better and run a BIP110/UASF node.

[un_rank]

You are not factoring in the Segwit discount. Real Bitcoin monetary transactions get a smaller Segwit discount than spam transactions that use the Segwit exploit.

What do you mean segwit discount and exploit? Segwit addresses are available for anyone to use and they help to reduce the tx size. This is not an exploit but was a BIP to help lower the feerate.

Bitcoin is money. You are free to use Bitcoin to buy a pancake or a jpeg. But neither your pancake nor your jpeg belong on the Bitcoin chain.

It is a public chain and people should be allowed to do what they want on it whether or not they like it. The feerate means there is a cost to do what you like which eliminates a big percentage of spam that could have hit the network.

- Jay -

[Bastketsrus]

It can be said that commissions work as an economic filter, but it is important to remember that they cannot distinguish spam from legitimate transactions. It all happens very simply.If you paid more, you end up getting your share of the block.  Given this, we can conclude that in this case ordinary users suffer. In my opinion, it is better to ask the question differently, that is, the problem may not be in the fee, but in how the protocol processes transactions that differ from each other.

Good point. Fees don’t really tell spam from normal transactions, they just prioritize whoever pays more. That’s why it’s useful to understand fees, especially when sending BTC to places like bitcoinbetting.

[Satofan44]

It can be said that commissions work as an economic filter, but it is important to remember that they cannot distinguish spam from legitimate transactions. It all happens very simply.If you paid more, you end up getting your share of the block.  Given this, we can conclude that in this case ordinary users suffer. In my opinion, it is better to ask the question differently, that is, the problem may not be in the fee, but in how the protocol processes transactions that differ from each other.

This sounds like a smart argument on the surface, but if you dig deep into this you will realize that you could not be more wrong. How exactly do you plan to enforce this? How on a technical level is the protocol able to distinguish "legitimate transactions" whatever that means from "spam"? Here is a hint, it can't. This would lead to a cat and mouse game similarly as the one with direct filters, you didn't actually propose anything different at all except propose applying a filtering mechanism for fees. I as an attacker or a "spammer" can adapt my protocol's transactions to be in the same form and size to whatever you set as "legitimate transactions". In the end, all you would do is punish normal Bitcoin users because many types and shapes of transactions you would de-prioritize but you would not accomplish anything at all. Users should avoid participating in these subjects unless they have some basic knowledge in information theory.

Good point. Fees don’t really tell spam from normal transactions, they just prioritize whoever pays more. That’s why it’s useful to understand fees, especially when sending BTC to places like bitcoinbetting.

You can't differentiate spam from normal transactions using any mechanism that involves fees. I can easily update my protocol to make my "spam" look like normal transactions (whatever this is supposed to mean). What idiotic proposal will people who support these stupid ideas come up with then? Limit the number of transactions per address? Limit per 24 hours? As a last and desperate proposal, KYC per address to allow "normal transactions" from "real users"?  

[Cryptomultiplier]

So in this whole spam war, and for the last 5 years since this spam attack started, we've been told over and over that Bitcoin doesn't need any spam filters. That the miner fees are the only filter needed to filter out spam.

And this was used as an excuse for the last 5 years to do nothing about the growing spam on chain. And it was also used as one of the excuses to drop a spam filter with core 30.

"The fees are the only filter we need."

So we've been told for the last 5 years.

But is it even true?

Is there some magic smoke in the fees that somehow chases away only spammers but not actual real Bitcoin users?

The answer is absolutely not. The idea that fees are enough to weed out spam is absurd. We have been gaslighted for the last 5 years into believing an absolute lie.

Let's just look at the Segwit exploit for example, which is pretty much the most popular spam right now.

When I use Segwit, I usually get a 50% Segwit discount at best.

But when spammers cram their dickbutt.jpeg in Segwit, they routinely get a 75%+ discount. And here is an example of this:

https://mempool.space/tx/d8fcb4e1773dab015310c593f0612f0b9b029d24e01416f26414a357a2c13093

In the case above, the inscription got a 74.8% discount.

So if spammers routinely get a bigger discount than monetary Bitcoiners, what are the fees really filtering in the end?

Seriously, when spammers get a bigger discount than monetary users, who is getting filtered out by the fees?

I would submit that Satoshi understood that fees might not be enough to weed out spam. This is what Satoshi replied when confronted with the idea of Lady Gaga videos on the chain:

That's one of the reasons for transaction fees.  There are other things we can do if necessary.

So whenever we are told that the fees are the only filter we need, they are lying to us.

And when they tell us that the spam can't be stopped, and we might as well ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist, we are again being lied to.

Run Knots friends, run BIP110

Cheers, Pepe

From my perspective and experience so far, the fees enable you to get mined, while other filters have to only determine the existence of your transactions on the network.
Miners fees may be the only final gate following so many security and technical checks. It determines your validity and compliance to the rules of the network.

[PepeLapiu2]

From my perspective and experience so far, the fees enable you to get mined, while other filters have to only determine the existence of your transactions on the network.
Miners fees may be the only final gate following so many security and technical checks. It determines your validity and compliance to the rules of the network.

I disagree. Paying miner fees allow you to move where you want in the cue to get confirmed. You are basically bidding to get confirmed, or buying block space.
But paying a miner fee doesn't determine validity or compliance anymore than saying the sender of the Nigerian prince email paid his internet bill, therefore his email is valid and not spam.

It can be said that commissions work as an economic filter, but it is important to remember that they cannot distinguish spam from legitimate transactions.

Spammers know very well that Bitcoin is for money, and only for money. Which is why they try so hard to make their spam look like a monetary transaction. They do this with fake pubkeys, fake script hash, fake Segwit data, the Segwit exploit, and the Taproot exploit, along with dust outputs.

And so while they try hard to obfuscate their spam as legit transactions, there are ways to make their life harder. See the Cat BIP, Knots implementation, BIP110/RDSF, and other proposals are being worked on. The idea that spam can't be prevented or suppressed is false.

It all happens very simply.If you paid more, you end up getting your share of the block.

You are ignoring what I explained in OP. In the case of Segwit, spammers pay less than legit Bitcoiners as they get a bigger discount. So I ask again, if the spam gets a bigger discount than legit Bitcoiners, who is getting filtered out by miner fees?

Given this, we can conclude that in this case ordinary users suffer.

Again, you are ignoring what I said in OP. If a spammer does a 30kb transaction, he gets a 75% discount and he only pays for 7.5kb of it while a legit Bitcoiners who does the same 30kb transaction will get around 50% discount at best and pay for 15kb of it.

Here, clearly, the spammers benefit and real Bitcoiners suffer.

What do you mean segwit discount and exploit? Segwit addresses are available for anyone to use and they help to reduce the tx size. This is not an exploit but was a BIP to help lower the feerate.

Segwit stands for Segregated Witness. But spammers found a way to shove their junk files in the Segwit discount. So they effectively get to post their jpeg on chain for free. At least the jpeg part of their transaction is stored by the 90,000 nodes for free. This is an abuse of the network. They are not users, they are spammers, attackers, grifters.

It is a public chain and people should be allowed to do what they want on it whether or not they like it.

Bitcoin is money, not a junk file sharing network.

The feerate means there is a cost to do what you like which eliminates a big percentage of spam that could have hit the network.

As I already explained, spammers cheated the system into getting a bigger Segwit discount than legit Bitcoin transactions. So in this case the fees are filtering out legit Bitcoiners for the benefit of spammers and grifters

[slaman29]

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You never heard that "The miner fees are the filter"? That's what I have been told over and over for the last 5 years. The implication was that the miner fees should be the only filter. Which, as I already explained, is effectively filtering out legit Bitcoiners with smaller Segwit discount.
<>
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Preventing spam on Bitcoin is not censorship. No more than not allowing a Christian preach in a Muslim or Jewish temple constitutes a breach of your freedom of religion. Bitcoin is money. You are free to use Bitcoin to buy a pancake or a jpeg. But neither your pancake nor your jpeg belong on the Bitcoin chain.
<>
If you want to make it harder for spammers on Bitcoin, you should run a Knots node, or even better and run a BIP110/UASF node.

Thanks for all your responses I really appreciate that you took the time.

Honestly didn't know this phrase until I saw it from your post, or at least maybe it never impacted me to remember it.

I guess my words on censorship is about the definition of spam, and who determines this. I always remember the message in 2009 that satoshi himself embedded into Bitcoin. Some people consider that spam. If satoshi included a picture instead, who knows? right?

Thanks for all the answers, I will remember Knots now.

[icoprofits]

Segwit was meant to help regular users save on fees. That the discount ended up benefiting inscribers more than monetary users is an outcome nobody wants to address.

[BlackHatCoiner]

But when spammers cram their dickbutt.jpeg in Segwit, they routinely get a 75%+ discount.

I thought the OP_RETURN limit relaxation was what spammers abused, no? Did I dream about the endless topics you created whining about Core being pro-spam with the limit relaxation? Is it not a good narrative now? You know. Now that it clear spammers would pay multiples of the same amount they'd pay with Segwit.

At least I'm glad we're past OP_RETURN now. One step at a time. Now the next season of threads will be about just how Segwit was an Epstein conspiracy to discount spam and "filter out" monetary use.

[DaveF]

But when spammers cram their dickbutt.jpeg in Segwit, they routinely get a 75%+ discount.

I thought the OP_RETURN limit relaxation was what spammers abused, no? Did I dream about the endless topics you created whining about Core being pro-spam with the limit relaxation? Is it not a good narrative now? You know. Now that it clear spammers would pay multiples of the same amount they'd pay with Segwit.

At least I'm glad we're past OP_RETURN now. One step at a time. Now the next season of threads will be about just how Segwit was an Epstein conspiracy to discount spam and "filter out" monetary use.

Remember everything that the luke cult does not like is the enemy of BTC

Makes you wonder if any of them have any BTC or if they all lost it and are now just bitter and want to put forth their view of it so they can come up with some scheme to get some crypto.

Shrug, no matter how much they really want to think differently no matter how many nodes they spin up to try to sybil attack BTC it's not going to matter if miners & exchanges don't support it.

-Dave

[Satofan44]

Segwit was meant to help regular users save on fees. That the discount ended up benefiting inscribers more than monetary users is an outcome nobody wants to address.

It can not be addressed, until you stop insisting on delusional ideas and other bullshit those that have skills and knowledge in this field will never listen to you. Core should isolate themselves even more and only entertain comments from provably knowledgeable people and those that have demonstrated merit. Everyone else is noise and stupid.  

But when spammers cram their dickbutt.jpeg in Segwit, they routinely get a 75%+ discount.

I thought the OP_RETURN limit relaxation was what spammers abused, no? Did I dream about the endless topics you created whining about Core being pro-spam with the limit relaxation? Is it not a good narrative now? You know. Now that it clear spammers would pay multiples of the same amount they'd pay with Segwit.

At least I'm glad we're past OP_RETURN now. One step at a time. Now the next season of threads will be about just how Segwit was an Epstein conspiracy to discount spam and "filter out" monetary use.

If you indulge idiots on their delusions and stupidity, they will always come back and ask for more. This is why discussing with idiots is a waste of time, for topics that we are talking about here there is an objective truth -- no mater how much modern liberal ideas want to infuse subjectivity in everything in order to desperately demand validation for their errors. The recent changes with OP_RETURN has once again validated that Core is right, and those that were on the opposing side of this issue are idiots that should not be listened too. The mistake was keeping luke-jr relevant at all for so long instead of banning them from the official channels, they are after all centralized and based on merit. Whatever you give in to them, spam will come back again in a new form and they will ask for more things to be done instead of admitting that they were wrong from the beginning. This has no end, and it would require that KYC be done per address in order to make transactions at all with many limits in numbers and quantity per 24 hours - and even then it would not work.

[Smartprofit]

I don't know if Bitcoin's high fees are really enough to combat spam...🙋

However, I am absolutely certain that a split between miners and developers is dangerous for /the first cryptocurrency/. I remember 2017 very well and all the talk about the upcoming hard fork. Everyone expected that (as a result) we would get two Bitcoins, and it would be difficult to determine which one was real.🤷

I remember Roger Ver and Jihan Wu's scam (promoting Bitcoin Cash) well. I remember numerous small transactions that slowed Bitcoin down (this was done intentionally). I remember one evening when Bitcoin Cash reached the second-largest market cap on CoinMarketCap. I remember the moment when the price of 1 Bitcoin Cash = 1/2 Bitcoin.

 I wouldn't want the discussion about how to combat spam on the Bitcoin network to lead to "bad guys" using it to destroy Bitcoin. For example, I wouldn't want the Bitcoin Core development team to be removed from working on Bitcoin's code. In my opinion, there aren't that many truly professional crypto developers in the world.💁