How sane is it to use a pictogram or pictography to keep seed phrases?

[Dex_master25]

‎The idea of using pictogram or pictography to keep or save key phrases or seed phrases seems like a genuine way besides inscribing these phrases on metal plates or writing them on paper and hiding it somewhere safe.
‎Although using pictograms or pictography to secure a very important information like a seed phrase may be a more creative approach for me because it aims to provide security through obscurity, I wonder what others may think of this approach to saving their seed phrases while saving Bitcoin on a hardware wallet or air gapped wallet.

‎That is, an individual holder or investor decides that instead of writing down the actual words, it would be better to use hand-drawn symbols or images that only them can decode.
‎
‎What do you think?
‎

[nakamura12]

I think there's aso a flaw when using it. What if there's two meaning or what it means in one or two of the pictogram that a person is using then the words will be different. It is indeed secured when they don't even know what you are storing since what they will see are bunch of symbols. Well, there are other ways to store seed phrase that is also secured.

[(BTC)]

I think the variety of ways you can obfuscate your private key into a variety of different methods is awesome. It can be fun and you can personalize your backup in any creative way you like.

The only downside is - the further you stray from the 24 word format, the more you are relying on your own memory or knowledge of your backup method. Dementia and other forms of cognitive impairment can onset onto anyone.

Sometimes it's best to keep it simple. If satoshi-era wallets can remain untouched for 15+ years, they must be doing something right.

A relevant excerpt from the Glacier Protocol document page: https://glacierprotocol.org/docs/overview/

"There is no such thing as perfect security. There are only degrees of security, and those degrees come at a cost (in time, money, convenience, etc.) So the first question is: How much security are you willing to invest in?"

[ultrloa]

‎The idea of using pictogram or pictography to keep or save key phrases or seed phrases seems like a genuine way besides inscribing these phrases on metal plates or writing them on paper and hiding it somewhere safe.
‎Although using pictograms or pictography to secure a very important information like a seed phrase may be a more creative approach for me because it aims to provide security through obscurity, I wonder what others may think of this approach to saving their seed phrases while saving Bitcoin on a hardware wallet or air gapped wallet.

‎That is, an individual holder or investor decides that instead of writing down the actual words, it would be better to use hand-drawn symbols or images that only them can decode.
‎
‎What do you think?
‎

If you are good with that then you can use those thing to secure your seed phrases. But if you are forgetful and still learning those things maybe there's huge risk for you to lose your funds especially if you will not remember the meaning of those symbols you input.

So much better don't put to much technical things that might cause you a problem. Since I think writing your seed phrase or engraving it on metal sheet still one of the safest option to do. What you need is to get a safe place to hide it to make sure that your wallet is safe from those people have evil plans towards what you are hiding on your wallets.

[Catenaccio]

‎The idea of using pictogram or pictography to keep or save key phrases or seed phrases seems like a genuine way besides inscribing these phrases on metal plates or writing them on paper and hiding it somewhere safe.
‎
‎What do you think?

I don't know about pictogram or pictography but if it is your creative idea, I am very skeptical that it is good to use. Because Bitcoin was created since 2009 and Bitcoin mnemonic seed was created some years later, and since then many wallet backup methods were created and used. The principle of making wallet backups is don't complicate it too much as you might get big troubles later.

That is, an individual holder or investor decides that instead of writing down the actual words, it would be better to use hand-drawn symbols or images that only them can decode.

The vital principle is the wallet backups must be able to used for wallet recovery later, and if you try to make too unique wallet backup methods, perhaps in the future you will forget what you did and how to recover your wallet.

Generally I don't think you backup idea is good.

Seed Backup Threat Model

Loss due to complexity / not being able to restore from backup

[nc50lc]

That is, an individual holder or investor decides that instead of writing down the actual words, it would be better to use hand-drawn symbols or images that only them can decode.
‎What do you think?

There's no standard to it so if you ever forgot how you encoded your words into pictogram, you're screwed.
On the other hand, if it's too simple, it wont do anything because a thief will still think that it's important and will most likely get that it's representing a seed phrase.

So, stick to the standards like using words and a separate "BIP39 passphrase",
Even if you forgot, the words may not be useful on its own but once you seek technical advise why it's empty, someone will likely say that "it might have a passphrase"
which can lead you to seek for your separate backup or even from faint memory, there may be a chance to bruteforce the correct passphrase.

[Catenaccio]

So, stick to the standards like using words and a separate "BIP39 passphrase",
Even if you forgot, the words may not be useful on its own but once you seek technical advise why it's empty, someone will likely say that "it might have a passphrase"
which can lead you to seek for your separate backup or even from faint memory, there may be a chance to bruteforce the correct passphrase.

I agree that using a wallet passphrase to add extra security for a wallet is better than trying to do something untested about security for wallet backups. Dex_master25 does not need to invent anything and use his fund for testing while there are enough available good options to choose and use that have been created by developers, tested by tech gurus in community and millions of users over many years.

What is wallet passphrase
Recovery code passphrases

[qwertyup23]

There are tons of security measures in order to keep your seed phrases at least secured and hidden. The problem is, with tons of security measures being introduced, it becomes relatively difficult to remember each and every combination especially if you consider the time invovled.

For example, if you happen to use pictograms as a security measure for your seed phrase, you may remember the correct combination let's say 3-5 years from now. The problem now lies with extended years given that there will always be that possibility of you missing that combination.

I remember a few years ago, there was this FaceBook account that I wanted to keep private. I changed its password and put different combination and numbers and I made it sure to really remember it. A few months passed and I totally forgot about my password, thus ultimately losing my FB account all-throughout.

[rat03gopoh]

Such a backup method lacks a standard interpretation. Besides relying on memory, you're required to rely on the consistency of your brain. For example, if you use a picture of a damaged red car to represent the word "crash," if your perspective isn't consistent 10 years from now, you might interpret the same photo as "red."

It's like remembering the answer to an account recovery question, like what your favorite food was as a child. I've repeatedly failed to remember that over the years.

[Amphenomenon]

‎What do you think?
‎

There are so many security measures and I bet you know you might not be the first to think about this, but the truth is while there are many security methods, many are flawed and through scrutiny this is found.

It might sound so good and secure at first until verified by many and this why standards exist also.

Regarding security it's better to stick with what has been tested and trusted.

[joniboini]

Maybe if we can measure how secure the encryption is, we'll know the exact answer to this. For now, I agree with others, I'd rather stick to the standard instead of making a new one unless I'm just doing it for fun.

It's an interesting question, though. I wonder if we can measure entropy with this. My bet is that it will probably be easier to crack, just a gut feeling.

I remember a few years ago, there was this FaceBook account that I wanted to keep private. I changed its password and put different combination and numbers and I made it sure to really remember it. A few months passed and I totally forgot about my password, thus ultimately losing my FB account all-throughout.

Sounds like me. I also tried to be cool and made some cool encryption with my password before I used a password manager. After a few weeks or so, I failed to recall them. So, unless I regularly type or recall it, I bet I'll forget most of them too.

[khaled0111]

If you are going to use pictography as a second layer of security, like encoding your wallet seed then storing the encoded message in a safe place that only you can access then that would be fine. Keep in mind that you need a foolsafe method that allow decoding the message later and not relying on your memory.
But, if you are planning to encode the seed and keep it in plane sight then I wouldn’t recommend that. No matter how obscure it seems, you can be sure that someone will be able to decode it.

[PrivacyG]

Other than what another Member said above about Dementia, you could simply have an accident tomorrow and forget what you hid today and how you did it.  Hell.  The roof above you right now could fall and cause similar damage or worse.

Traditional methods of storing Bitcoin are only a handful for a very good reason.  There are obviously a TON of ways you can do this.  Hell.  You could arrange some items in your furniture in such a way that you could use to find your Seed.  But years down the line you may end up moving one item by mistake and months later you realize you screwed your self up very hard.

In the same way.  Using a pictogram, pictography, any unconventional method could make things really difficult or even impossible to solve for you if you forget how it was done.  If you want to make sure you or anyone else will never ever get access to your Bitcoin, choose an unconventional way of storing Bitcoin.

I have an example we all probably went through at least once in our life time.  Did you ever forget a Password you never remembered again?  Do not make this mistake with your Bitcoin too.

[promise444c5]

The more you try to complicate it the more you get closer to losing your holdings.. Keep it simple and try to be watchful.

Did you ever forget a Password you never remembered again?

I encrypted a file with a password I thought I could remember, but I added some extra combinations that made it harder. After 14 days, it took me almost 15 minutes of trying different options before I figured it out.

I was lucky to remember mine , but it still took me that long after just a few days. I can only imagine what would happen if I relied on memory alone for the next 3 to 5 years…  brute forcing won’t work with what I used, probably won’t  even remember any base pattern talk more of having a sickness that could affect memory.

[tvplus006]

...‎That is, an individual holder or investor decides that instead of writing down the actual words, it would be better to use hand-drawn symbols or images that only them can decode.
‎‎What do you think?
‎

If you have a single wallet from which you need to save the seed phrase in this way, then this method may be acceptable. But the main problem is that everyone has more than one wallet, and, accordingly, it will be problematic to remember the initial phrase in this way for each wallet.

[Zaguru12]

If you have a single wallet from which you need to save the seed phrase in this way, then this method may be acceptable. But the main problem is that everyone has more than one wallet, and, accordingly, it will be problematic to remember the initial phrase in this way for each wallet.

Even if it is actually one wallet, it is still risky in my opinion, because you will completely trusting your own memory which is one you should never do when backing up one’s seed phrase. If you decide to then not trust or rely on your memory and opted to write it out then it is same as the other way of writing down the seed phrase from the start and carries same risk because if it gets to the hands of bad actors then it would still be recoverable.

For me I think writing the seed phrase out and adding an extra layer like passphrase which is backed up in another place is much better than, trusting your memory with patterns and designs

[noorman0]

The more you try to complicate it the more you get closer to losing your holdings..

This is sound advice. I can't believe these crazy ideas were originally created by people with genuine security literacy or simply overly skeptical individuals. The requirement for offline backups is clear: they should never touch digital devices. Furthermore, the threat is their own environment, which shouldn't be difficult to assess compared to online threats.

[CryptoVoyager24]

Worst idea ever. Seen users do this and forget what their own drawings meant 2 years later.
Dont invent custom cryptography. Write the standard words on steel and hide it. Simple is secure.

[NotATether]

Or you could also place your seed words in a QR code, print the qr code somewhere accessable, and then lock the actual 24 words far far away.

That way you'd confuse a lot of "casual thieves" who are in a rush to take valuable stuff, and only need a phone camera to restore it.

[2Pizza410000BTC]

‎The idea of using pictogram or pictography to keep or save key phrases or seed phrases seems like a genuine way besides inscribing these phrases on metal plates or writing them on paper and hiding it somewhere safe.
‎Although using pictograms or pictography to secure a very important information like a seed phrase may be a more creative approach for me because it aims to provide security through obscurity, I wonder what others may think of this approach to saving their seed phrases while saving Bitcoin on a hardware wallet or air gapped wallet.

‎That is, an individual holder or investor decides that instead of writing down the actual words, it would be better to use hand-drawn symbols or images that only them can decode.
‎
‎What do you think?
‎

I would say that it can be used for anyone's convenience. If you are very skilled and experienced in this matter and can draw good pictures, then you can save the seed phrase of the wallet by drawing a picture according to your decision. But whatever you do, you have to work very carefully so that there are no errors and you do not face any problem in accessing the wallet later.