The rule on account sales.

[SuperBitMan]

18. Having multiple accounts and account sales are allowed, but account sales are discouraged.

According to the rule it simply means that someone is allowed to sell an account But the forum does not like account selling and advises people not to do it, from what I understand and from what is happening in the forum, selling account won’t get you banned immediately, but it can cause problems and it is seen as a bad practice.
So my question is why making selling account legal meanwhile you don’t like members doing it and they can be tagged a bad person in the forum if they are caught doing it. Is just like telling me I’m free to use your personal things and then when i use it, you tag me a thief.

I know the forum motive is to be free as possible but it’s not entirely free because some things are not permitted here for example plagiarism, a ban is attached to those who do it.
I think the rule on account sell should be on one side not standing on two side, you can’t permit something and at same time sees it as something bad and then discourage people from doing it.
If you are caught selling your account you may likely get a negative tag even though it’s not against the forum rules.
Where do we stand in this rule.

[nutildah]

If you are caught selling your account you may likely get a negative tag even though it’s not against the forum rules.
Where do we stand in this rule.

Seems like you grasp the situation pretty clearly. The forum rule is that account sales are allowed. When it comes to tags, that's up to everybody's personal preference.

Account sales are so bad now that I will negative tag every bought account I come across. Its just people pretending to be someone they're not -- dishonest at best and fraudulent at worst.

[(BTC)]

Forum account progression takes time, effort, and lots of work. The reward is recognition, lessened restrictions posting-wise, and the ability to customize avatar/signatures. It's a reward because for most users, it directly translates to being able to earn income by posting and being taken more seriously for other buisness opportunities like providing services like escrow, loans, campaign management, etc. There's an obvious timegated wall to surpass to incentivize good behavior/quality posting in the long run.

Acc trading circumnavigates the proof of effort and work it takes to get the reward, and is seen as a lazy/untrustworthy approach that undermines other user's time spent getting to where they are in the community from a reputational standpoint. The fact that it's not against the rules, falls similarly in line to scams not being moderated for the most part. Spamming and plagiarism seems to get you insta-nuked, because from a moderation perspective, these practices can lead to an unsavory forum "clenliness" and cause a lot of manual attention from staff to deal with it all the time if left alone. Unlike scams, you can't caveat emptor plagarism/spam. You just gotta suffer through it.

You can do it, but it's fruitless because there are several members out there that dedicate time to point out, tag, and spread awareness to the transgression of doing so. All your left with is an account that no one will go near due to stolen valor (bought valor?) and is nothing more than a shell of the previous owner.

[Upgrade00]

I agree with you on this. I understand the forum stand point that moderating account sales officially will not be an easy task to do wasting time moderators should be using to check spam, but there could have been no rule at all leaving it to the community trust system.
If I could think of one time that account sales will be necessary, the rule can be interpreted to mean, except when completely necessary do not engage in account sales, but I can't think of any at all.

This isn't an issue however. The community has modified the rule and account sales are not tolerated at all. You'll not get your account banned but if caught you'll most certainly be tagged.

[Fiatless]

If you are caught selling your account you may likely get a negative tag even though it’s not against the forum rules.
Where do we stand in this rule.

Buying a high-ranking account while you are a newbie is deception. It's like brandishing a PhD certificate while you are a college undergraduate. Such accounts need to be tagged because they are not who they claim they are. Buying an account in its totality should be discouraged because it could lead to scam and other criminality. 

[_act_]

So my question is why making selling account legal meanwhile you don’t like members doing it and they can be tagged a bad person in the forum if they are caught doing it. Is just like telling me I’m free to use your personal things and then when i use it, you tag me a thief.

But do you know that someone can buy an account, and be given negative feedbacks, but if the person that bought it is not bothered and start posting good in a way that will convince people on this forum. Do you know that such negative trusts can be removed one by one by the people that gave it? But if the forum is against account sales, probably the person would have been banned. The rule is a good one and should be left like that.

[LoyceV]

If you are caught selling your account you may likely get a negative tag even though it’s not against the forum rules.

Negative tags aren't handled by the forum. So in general you shouldn't tag someone for breaking forum rules, let Mods handle the rule breakers. Why give the forum more work for something that isn't really a big problem?

why making selling account legal

What's the point of making something illegal if you can't enforce it? All it will do is push account sales to external platforms.

[Hazink]

from what I understand and from what is happening in the forum, selling account won’t get you banned immediately, but it can cause problems and it is seen as a bad practice.

A bought account is never banned, not that it doesn't get banned immediately, it can only get banned when it commits a crime that will lead to it getting banned, and not in a case of just being an account that changed ownership.

So my question is why making selling account legal meanwhile you don’t like members doing it and they can be tagged a bad person in the forum if they are caught doing it. Is just like telling me I’m free to use your personal things and then when i use it, you tag me a thief.

Buying an account is legal because, like it or not, you can't stop the buying of an account, at least for the reason why it's allowed, as stated in the forum rules.

Q: I saw a guy selling Bitcointalk accounts. Why is that allowed?
A: Since we can't effectively prevent these sales (proxies, TOR, sales on other forums), we don't because otherwise we would be giving the users a false sense of security.

Another thing is that the forum itself discourages the buying of accounts, not that they are against it. The reason why a bought account likely gets tagged is as a result of preventing the user from taking advantage of whatever reputation the old account owner might have built in the background and also publicly in the forum.

I know the forum motive is to be free as possible but it’s not entirely free because some things are not permitted here for example plagiarism, a ban is attached to those who do it.

. Being free does not mean it should promote stealing. Plagiarism is equal to stealing because it's taking what does not belong to someone.

I think the rule on account sell should be on one side not standing on two side, you can’t permit something and at same time sees it as something bad and then discourage people from doing it.

I also believe the account sales rules should be adjusted but not on this aspect which you are proposing.
Account selling is allowed but merit buying isn’t allowed  

If you are caught selling your account you may likely get a negative tag even though it’s not against the forum rules.
Where do we stand in this rule.

The forum rules are being monitored by all, and punishment for breaking the rules is being handled by the moderators, and in the case of account sales, the person involved being tagged has nothing to do with the forum rules. The DT decides that and when they suspect a risk they issue out tag the moderator don't moderate scam, and account sales is somehow treated as scam since it could be used to scam victims.

19. Possible (or real) scams and Trust ratings are not moderated (to prevent moderation abuse).

One solution that might not be acknowledged, but if thoroughly followed could help. If someone who is buying an account or the seller doesn't have any ill intentions, then following the suggestion given here could help. How about an official accounts sales thread in marketplace
Or a public statement of wanting to buy an account, a reason for buying an account and letting it be known to all that the account is for a certain purpose and not a scam using another person's identity.

[alegotardo]

I agree with you on this. I understand the forum stand point that moderating account sales officially will not be an easy task to do wasting time moderators should be using to check spam, but there could have been no rule at all leaving it to the community trust system.
If I could think of one time that account sales will be necessary, the rule can be interpreted to mean, except when completely necessary do not engage in account sales, but I can't think of any at all.

This isn't an issue however. The community has modified the rule and account sales are not tolerated at all. You'll not get your account banned but if caught you'll most certainly be tagged.

Honestly, I understand it this way:
Let the person sell, tell them it is "okay".
You know why? Because someone who sells or buys an account is certainly a person of bad character, someone who wants to obtain some undue benefit without merit, without effort, right?

And it is practically certain that sooner or later this person will be exposed because the writing style changes a lot when it changes ownership... its impossible for someone to write like the previous owner, to have the same habits, the same opinions, it is impossible to contradict themselves.

So, when they are exposed (and this usually happens soon) they will have such a bad reputation that they will realize they lost a lot of money for nothing... this is an exemplary punishment for someone who tried to gain an advantage unethically.

So, let them sell/buy, the community will take care of the rest!

[philipma1957]

I still argue the forum should make it not legal. I think consistency is important and this setup now is not consistent .

I also would argue that the current setup could cause legal ramifications since the forum is usa based.

Ie some one buys JJG's account or philipma1957's account.

It is legal to do so. Dogooder's tag the new owner. The new owner sues the forum for full disclosure of all the ips of the daggers.

Or better yet people in the collectibles sections sell their account legally and all the pms they ever sent are visible to the buyer.

The new buy tries and succeeds in robbing a dozen or so pm info fueled members.

The forum gets sued for allowing the account to be sold. We all recognize the danger of an established long term account getting sold mant will tag it. Yet the forum allows the sale. Simply a way to cause trouble.  Frankly I am surprised issues over this have not happened already.

[LoyceV]

I still argue the forum should make it not legal.

What if CasinoXYZ gets a new owner, and their account "CasinoXYZ" moves to the new owner? Or what if the casino fires the employee who took care of the account, and hires someone else to take care of it now? I'd argue those cases shouldn't be handled by the forum.

The forum gets sued for allowing the account to be sold.

Any account can get sold without the forum's knowing about it. Without regular KYC checks, how is theymos supposed to know who's behind my keyboard?

[logfiles]

The rule is pretty easy to interpret. The forum administration is trying to say "We do not moderate account sales since we already allow people to have multiple accounts, but account sales is a bad practice. If you get caught by community members, you may get tagged by them"

They are trying to avoid scenario where they will have to KYC you to prove that your account was not sold in case of a dispute so they are not going to moderate account sales, just like they won't moderate scam.

[Doan9269]

If you are caught selling your account you may likely get a negative tag even though it’s not against the forum rules.
Where do we stand in this rule.

Seems like you grasp the situation pretty clearly. The forum rule is that account sales are allowed. When it comes to tags, that's up to everybody's personal preference.

Account sales are so bad now that I will negative tag every bought account I come across. Its just people pretending to be someone they're not -- dishonest at best and fraudulent at worst.

In addition to this, we should always remember one thing about this forum on how it make it clear that scam or any thing related to this is not moderated as well, that means you will not be banned when you engaged in scam but I can assure you that anyone that does that evil thing will definitely be tagged, so there's no moderation to some certain things, but members on their own can contribute their best towards ensuring that things are done in the right way by justifying on every user that violates doing the right thing.

[SuperBitMan]

The forum gets sued for allowing the account to be sold.

Any account can get sold without the forum's knowing about it. Without regular KYC checks, how is theymos supposed to know who's behind my keyboard?

You can find out that an account has changed hands through there writing style and by saying a different thing from what the former person says, I believe they have caught some set of people through this way, even though it’s not a 100% correct way to find out if an account has changed hands or has been sold out to another person.

I Think right now what the forum should do is to make account selling illegal since it’s already illegal in the eyes of everyone in the forum.

If you are caught selling your account you may likely get a negative tag even though it’s not against the forum rules.
Where do we stand in this rule.

The forum rule is that account sales are allowed. When it comes to tags, that's up to everybody's personal preference.

Yeah but the tags will still be inline with the rules and regulations of the forum, if any tag is against the forum rules it’s abuse of DT power.
Can you give a negative tag to someone who talks about US being the world? The answer is no even if you don’t agree with him or her, so giving tags is still done based on the forum rules and regulations.
I think it’s better the forum amend that rule of account selling and make it illegal since it’s already illegal to almost everyone in the forum, so it will be known to everyone, if a newbie buys an account and then claims he was not aware it will lead to negative feedback on the account he bought based on the forum rule, can we actually blame him or her?

[EarnOnVictor]

18. Having multiple accounts and account sales are allowed, but account sales are discouraged.

So my question is why making selling account legal meanwhile you don’t like members doing it and they can be tagged a bad person in the forum if they are caught doing it. Is just like telling me I’m free to use your personal things and then when i use it, you tag me a thief

I believe the person who wrote that clause had a good reason for it. However, it could still be faulted because it wasn't well-defined. Writing it shabbily like that could encourage bad actors, which is why it looks questionable

There should have been a clause that states that 1. doing that should be open, 2. the reason must be well-stated, 3. with both potential buyers and sellers acknowledged. And above all, the buyer must be capable to handle the account just as the seller.

Imagine a high profile account is being handled by another deserving personality. If transactions like that had occurred in the past, some of the accounts lost to health issues/death, users' sudden wealth abandonment and unexplainable behaviours wouldn't have been redundant.

[LoyceV]

You can find out that an account has changed hands through there writing style and by saying a different thing from what the former person says, I believe they have caught some set of people through this way, even though it’s not a 100% correct way to find out if an account has changed hands or has been sold out to another person.

In incidental cases for high-profile accounts, sure. But for millions of accounts, you can't expect the forum admin to start tracking all this.

I Think right now what the forum should do is to make account selling illegal since it’s already illegal in the eyes of everyone in the forum.

So is scamming. But you can't expect the forum to decide on each and every case.

Imagine a high profile account is being handled by another deserving personality.

That's a good point: what if my wife uses my account to show her pizza? The account wasn't sold, but it shows the slippery slope you're entering.

[lovesmayfamilis]

I agree with you on this. I understand the forum stand point that moderating account sales officially will not be an easy task to do wasting time moderators should be using to check spam, but there could have been no rule at all leaving it to the community trust system.
If I could think of one time that account sales will be necessary, the rule can be interpreted to mean, except when completely necessary do not engage in account sales, but I can't think of any at all.

This isn't an issue however. The community has modified the rule and account sales are not tolerated at all. You'll not get your account banned but if caught you'll most certainly be tagged.

Honestly, I understand it this way:
Let the person sell, tell them it is "okay".
You know why? Because someone who sells or buys an account is certainly a person of bad character, someone who wants to obtain some undue benefit without merit, without effort, right?

And it is practically certain that sooner or later this person will be exposed because the writing style changes a lot when it changes ownership... its impossible for someone to write like the previous owner, to have the same habits, the same opinions, it is impossible to contradict themselves.

So, when they are exposed (and this usually happens soon) they will have such a bad reputation that they will realize they lost a lot of money for nothing... this is an exemplary punishment for someone who tried to gain an advantage unethically.

So, let them sell/buy, the community will take care of the rest!

Definitely, and you're right about that. The seller will be caught, but you know, there's a remark that says criminals like to be caught.

Here is a real example of how a person who has repeatedly been caught up in all sorts of misconduct sells his accounts in this way, after which all his accounts remain with a negative tag, including the account of a direct seller.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5579284.msg66580731#msg66580731

It's not a bad idea to buy an account from someone useful (here I'm talking from the buyer's side) and maintain his style, but if the seller grows his accounts on his own and then sells them as some kind of substandard product, then double fraud already appears. And if such accounts are caught, then they are talking about the "defects" of the product or the "defects" of the buyer.

[Cookdata]

So my question is why making selling account legal meanwhile you don’t like members doing it and they can be tagged a bad person in the forum if they are caught doing it. Is just like telling me I’m free to use your personal things and then when i use it, you tag me a thief.

The forum threats accounts sale as civil case in the sense that it's the community that handle the judgment, they don't see it as criminal case liketheft, this is why the DT existed in the first place.
If the Administrator want to put every account on investigation, they are in the best position to clearly address them, however it will looks like a dictatorship, if the administrator grants the IP access to moderators, the IP address logs alone will solve all this but this is discourage by the community.

I know the forum motive is to be free as possible but it’s not entirely free because some things are not permitted here for example plagiarism, a ban is attached to those who do it.
I think the rule on account sell should be on one side not standing on two side, you can’t permit something and at same time sees it as something bad and then discourage people from doing it.
If you are caught selling your account you may likely get a negative tag even though it’s not against the forum rules.
Where do we stand in this rule.

I see plagiarism fight as way of protecting the forum integrity rather than the users integrity. If the forum becomes a place where everyone copy and post informations that are not original and as well copyright infringement, it will not be about the users anymore, it will be a legal case against the forum and since the forum doesn't identify users, everyone is faceless, Theymos will be the one to be stand for the forum. You don't want to see such in the forum.

The forum is not perfect, expect it to be run on a ways that are friendly and considerable but personally, the community fight against account sale is working properly.

[Rikafip]

What's the point of making something illegal if you can't enforce it? All it will do is push account sales to external platforms.

People getting tagged over account sales already pushed account sales to external platforms, given how few of those account sales offers appear now on bitcointalk.

[Lida93]

You may not get banned for buying an account but you're likely to get tagged with feedback to alert whosoever wants to deal with that account without knowing it's not same user that's now handling it.

I think I idea to prevent possible scam and impersonation is what has really prompted the tags on bought account, and since it's often difficult to differentiate between a hacked account and a bought account, tagging it becomes necessary.