Ripple vs Bitcoin

[blacksails]

The only thing I wanna know about ripple is where can I exchange them for bitcoin.

I got 30,000 I wanna offload

Sell and withdraw through bitstamp.
Another way is to sell on bitstamp for IOU:s and withdraw through this: https://dividendrippler.com

[1714879021]

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[1714879021]

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[grifferz]

The only thing I wanna know about ripple is where can I exchange them for bitcoin.

I got 30,000 I wanna offload

Both Bitstamp and Kraken deal in Ripple and Bitcoin. I believe Kraken is currently having USD withdrawal issues though, so is not a good choice if your fiat is in USD not EUR.

[Sukrim]

The only thing I wanna know about ripple is where can I exchange them for bitcoin.

I got 30,000 I wanna offload

...you have 30k Ripples (XRP), not 30k "Ripple".

What do you want in return?

Both Bitstamp and Kraken deal in Ripple and Bitcoin.

You can only buy XRP on Bitstamp, you can buy BTC.Bitstamp on Ripple with XRP though and deposit them in your Bitstamp account. They require AML docs for that.

[acoindr]

Possible, but not likely, since if Ripple takes off, XRP (ripples) will become viable as a store of value too. ...

I doubt it, since as I've said there is no way to verify how many ripples there are in existence.

The better system addressing the problem Ripple purports to may be Open Transactions, where everything is decentralized and verifiable. Perhaps the Ripple supporters should promote with a community where verification isn't held in such high regard.

[Sukrim]

Possible, but not likely, since if Ripple takes off, XRP (ripples) will become viable as a store of value too. ...

I doubt it, since as I've said there is no way to verify how many ripples there are in existence.

The better system addressing the problem Ripple purports to may be Open Transactions, where everything is decentralized and verifiable. Perhaps the Ripple supporters should promote with a community where verification isn't held in such high regard.

Just because you don't understand how something works does not mean it is not possible to do. You can access any ledger with a simple API call and do a sum operation over all XRP yourself if that helps you in your quest of verifying the number of XRP... XRP are as verifiable as BTC and I even told you in the thread you linked how to do that.

Open Transactions is a neat system, true, it still is not in use anywhere besides alpha/beta testing though as far as I've seen.

[acoindr]

Just because you don't understand how something works does not mean it is not possible to do. ...

I asked you how to verify how many ripples exist and you responded with things like:

There is also a bunched together amount released by RippleLabs (https://www.ripplelabs.com/xrp-distribution/) with no further/cryptographically verifiable proof behind that. ...

and

It looks like about in the right ballpark though, from looking at the distribution of XRP between wallets atm.

To which I replied:

That's a numeric statement posted on a website. That doesn't cut it.  

and

That doesn't cut it either. It needs to be mathematically verifiable.

You then responded:

The oldest available ledger is #32570 (with about 100 entries) so this is currently the genesis one, the older ones are presumably lost or at least not available until JoelKatz finally publishes the transactions that took place in these first 1 1/2 weeks so these ledgers can be restored back to 0. Since then there is a unbroken hashed chain of headers (also cryptographically linked to the transactions and account state at each point of time). Nodes verify this by getting the most recent finalized ledger and continuing from there. Since transactions in Ripple only operate on account balances, not on inputs like Bitcoin, and you can only branch at the top not "mine" on an earlier "block", there is no explicit need for keeping history, not even headers.

How much value do you really think Bitcoin would have today if the blockchain's genesis block was "unavailable"?

[grifferz]

So once and for all, perhaps Sukrim could clarify: if those earlier ledgers from before #32750 ever appeared, could they prove existence of additional ripples, thus making acoindr's point correct that we currently cannot know how many ripples exist?

Or can there absolutely never be any more ripples than are shown to exist in ledger #32750?

Just so we don't have to go through this back and forth ever again, as I feel like this is at least the third time of seeing it for me even in my short history on bitcointalk.

[BittBurger]

Here - let me put it this way.

If you're an investor and want to get involved in the 2nd most probable "coin" system (misnomer for Ripple, i know) then you can currently drop $5,000 and purchase 500,000 ripple (XRP).

Now wouldn't it be nice if ripple went from $0.01 to .... say .... $1.00 ?

There have been estimates that if the network gets going, and does what its made to do, it would be realistically valued at $5.00 one day.

Just sayin.  500,000 x $5.00 = $2,500,000.

And it doesn't even compete with Bitcoin, so there is no conflict of interest.

Why not take a shot?  I did.

-B-

[Beliathon]

i dont think ripple is even worth spending time or thought on

Disagree, although I admit I had the exact same attitude until about a month ago when I started reading up on it proper.

bitcoin is revolution

Strongly agree.

[acoindr]

Now wouldn't it be nice if ripple went from $0.01 to .... say .... $1.00 ?
 ...

I'm sure Ripple insiders would love that. Remember, you can say the same about any of a number of alt-coins.

Why not take a shot?  ...

What if the price going from $0.01 to $1.00 was the cue for Ripple insiders, which could easily hold 50 Trillion or more XRP, to dump a portion of their new wealth on a now liquid market resulting in a crashed price and loss for all the suckers that bought in at $1.00, thinking it's the next Bitcoin?

[acoindr]

So once and for all, perhaps Sukrim could clarify: if those earlier ledgers from before #32750 ever appeared, could they prove existence of additional ripples, thus making acoindr's point correct that we currently cannot know how many ripples exist?

Or can there absolutely never be any more ripples than are shown to exist in ledger #32750?

Just so we don't have to go through this back and forth ever again, as I feel like this is at least the third time of seeing it for me even in my short history on bitcointalk.

Sukrim? Anyone???

Where are the vocal Ripple supporters from earlier in the thread on this question?

[Sukrim]

Just because you don't understand how something works does not mean it is not possible to do. ...

I asked you how to verify how many ripples exist and you responded with things like:

There is also a bunched together amount released by RippleLabs (https://www.ripplelabs.com/xrp-distribution/) with no further/cryptographically verifiable proof behind that. ...

and

It looks like about in the right ballpark though, from looking at the distribution of XRP between wallets atm.

This is about the amount held by RippleLabs in their wallets, not the total amount in circulation in the Ripple system. This is like estimating how many BTC are being held by Satoshi. It is about 1 million, give or take, however it is hard to say for sure which address belongs to him. They did not relase a list of addresses that belong to them (which is why I wrote "no further/cryptographically verifiable proof").

How much value do you really think Bitcoin would have today if the blockchain's genesis block was "unavailable"?

Bitcoin operates on a different model (transaction inputs/outputs) and thus needs to be able to track every single coin. Ripple operates on balances, so it does not need full history to work. The situation is not ideal, however as you can see (and verify!) since ledger 32570 the amount of XRP was either stable or has gone down between ledgers, also there is no valid transaction in Ripple to issue new XRP. You can only transfer them or use them as fee (in which case they get destroyed forever).

So once and for all, perhaps Sukrim could clarify: if those earlier ledgers from before #32750 ever appeared, could they prove existence of additional ripples, thus making acoindr's point correct that we currently cannot know how many ripples exist?

Or can there absolutely never be any more ripples than are shown to exist in ledger #32750?

Just so we don't have to go through this back and forth ever again, as I feel like this is at least the third time of seeing it for me even in my short history on bitcointalk.

It would be very unexpected to see that more than 100 billion XRP existed prior to #32570. With current transaction types etc. it is impossible in Ripple to issue more XRP, so the amount in #32570 is the maximum we know about and it is very likely that the total maximum was 100 billion in ledger #0 as advertised (and as any rippled at that time and since then would have produced for a newly bootstrapped system).

It could theoretically be possible that more XRP have existed in these ~2 weeks, however at least at the time of #32570 there were definitely less than that (99999999999.996320 XRP to be exact) in total. SINCE THEN we know exactly how many XRP exist at any point of time, even if for whatever reason another 100 billion XRP existed before and were secretly destroyed before #32570, this does not change the current situation or the future. XRP that are destroyed can not be brought back, so there can absolutely never be more XRP than right now (which is true for every point in time since 1.1.2012).

There have been estimates that if the network gets going, and does what its made to do, it would be realistically valued at $5.00 one day.

...Where?! I do not value all XRP at ~500 billion USD... Feel free to buy whatever you want, speculating on XRP however is not much different than speculating on anything else AND you have a company that is determined to hand out still ~ 7 times the amount of XRP that is currently distributed between users.

If you want to use Ripple, buy ~50 XRP or so (0.001 BTC atm.), if you want to speculate beyond that good luck but it's not something that I personally would do or recommend. Ripple's usefulness is far beyond XRP as cryptocurrency, but that's just my opinion of course.

[Onar]

XRP stripped off the fundamental technologies that makes bitcoin actually work. Controlling the value of a XRP is centralized and entirely in someone else hands, and so is the XRP themself.
Neither does it have the incentive to stay decentralized built into it the way bitcoin does.

I will continue to claim this for as long as people think they are comparable.

In general, a cryptocurrency do not need to be desentilized to have succes. Bitcoin agenda is to be a desentilized currency. But other coins can have other strategies. I do not think the mainstream market is concerned about desentilisation or not, as long as the currency work.

[softron]

Where can i sell ripple for fiat

[acoindr]

Sukrim, thank you for your apparently honest answers. I would ask people to replace "Ripple" with "Bitcoin" to see how shaky IMO it sounds:

It would be very unexpected to see that more than 100 billion XRP existed prior ....

With current transaction types etc. it is impossible in Ripple to issue more XRP, so the amount in #32570 is the maximum we know about ...

... and it is very likely that the total maximum was 100 billion in ledger #0 as advertised ...

[grifferz]

Where can i sell ripple for fiat

Looks like you can sell ripples for EUR on Kraken. I haven't, but it seems the functionality and order book is there.

[grifferz]

It would be very unexpected to see that more than 100 billion XRP existed prior to #32570. With current transaction types etc. it is impossible in Ripple to issue more XRP, so the amount in #32570 is the maximum we know about

Is it at all possible that a transaction type existed before #32570 that could have allowed more XRP to be created, and then that transaction type was removed prior to ledger #32570 being published?

[Sukrim]

Sukrim, thank you for your apparently honest answers. I would ask people to replace "Ripple" with "Bitcoin" to see how shaky IMO it sounds:

It would be very unexpected to see that more than 100 billion XRP existed prior to #32570. With current transaction types etc. it is impossible in Ripple to issue more XRP, so the amount in #32570 is the maximum we know about

Is it at all possible that a transaction type existed before #32570 that could have allowed more XRP to be created, and then that transaction type was removed prior to ledger #32570 being published?

To be fair, you guys are asking me all the time about "theoretically possible", "at all possible" etc. - there are a lot of things "theoretically possible" in Bitcoin too. Yes, it is theoretically possible that this happened (though I cannot think of any reason why it should have and also have not found any evidence for that in any way).

I hate speaking in absolutes when they are not justified (e.g. "there will be 21 million BTC" is provably wrong - there will be for sure less than that because some miners did non issue themselves all 50 BTC in coinbase in the past) so it might sound more sketchy than needed if I were a bit more bold with wording (then I seem to attract trolls again who claim I lie or try to make Ripple look like something it isn't).

The older ledgers were lost because of a software bug by the way, not because of a conspiracy. There is a slow ongoing effort to still recover/reconstruct these old ledgers, so this might very well be just a temporary issue.

[cbeast]

Shouldn't this be Ripple vs Ethereum? Ethereum has a stronger development team and wider scope than Ripple. Bitcoin isn't even designed to do the same thing.

[Sukrim]

Shouldn't this be Ripple vs Ethereum? Ethereum has a stronger development team and wider scope than Ripple. Bitcoin isn't even designed to do the same thing.

This assessment is based on what exactly?

Anyways, I agree: Ethereum, eMunie, NXT, Mastercoin, Colored Coins etc. are the things you should compare to Ripple, Bitcoin is just something that is very well designed to be traded on these platforms.