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Author Topic: Ripple vs Bitcoin  (Read 13331 times)
Polycoin
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April 07, 2014, 06:34:23 PM
 #141

Ripple is centralized....

Bitcoin is not centralized....

Bitcoin is 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000^100000000000 times better than Ripple.

Polycoin Troopers, Assemble!
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April 07, 2014, 09:47:45 PM
 #142

Why did Ripple Labs choose to create XRP rather than use Bitcoin to secure their transactions?
Some reasons I can think of (I do not work for or am affiliated with Ripple Labs by the way, so these are just what I think their reasons are):

BTC are very slow (orders of magnitude slower) to confirm compared to Ripple's ledgers.
Jed said from the beginning he doesn't like the idea of burning electricity to secure the network.
Ripple validators would need to track the ledger _and_ the Bitcoin block chain.
Bitcoin scales poorly, if transactions on Ripple were done on Bitcoin, transaction volume would go through the roof (reminds me that I have to collect stats about transaction volume), already now Ripple likely has a higher transaction volume than Bitcoin, which is currently hard capped at less than 10 TX/s (imagine being able to only do 10 trades globally per second!)
Bitcoin transactions are crazy expensive (https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5044482 estimates one typical transaction to cost about 0.8 mBTC).
Marketing reasons probably too, also even though it is improving, BTC don't have the best rep out there. It would be kinda hard to get banks to buy BTC first to transact something on Ripple, a fact that Mastercoin, Counterparty et.al. are going to find out soon enough.
Of course also the possibility to make/earn money from the system while being able to go fully open source with it asap (they do not earn money by providing the infrastructure or software, they earn money by people using their product and they hope for the network effect to kick in so there is no fork emerging that is more popular than their network)

They messed up a few things too by the way, calling XRP "ripples" is what bugs me most. Instead of calling the smallest unit (1 µXRP) "drop", they should have jsut called the whole currency "droplets", "waves" or something else. Especially their first target market (this forum) did simply treat it as another altcoin and by having the same name, it messed up a lot imho. (It's like a large bitcoin exchange calling itself "Bitcoin" - just see the confusion with The Block Chain and blockchain.info already)

So who "controls" the ripple protocol. You talk about nodes. Bitcoin is controlled by a democracy of hash power. Who can implement/control the ripple protocol?



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themusicgod1
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April 07, 2014, 10:20:33 PM
 #143

...
So who "controls" the ripple protocol. You talk about nodes. Bitcoin is controlled by a democracy of hash power. Who can implement/control the ripple protocol?

Who 'controls' TCP/IP?  Protocols are not 'controlled'.  If you speak the protocol to a node on the network, the network will listen to you, and you become part of it.  Ripple is not really that democratic, it is more consensus-based.  This might be a little hard to wrap your head around, but it can work.
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April 07, 2014, 10:21:54 PM
 #144

How will Ripple Labs comply with government sanctions?
Similar to "sanctioning" the Bitcoin foundation there is not a lot to "sanction" at Ripple Labs to begin with... the network can and will go on, no matter what RL does.

I guess they would just follow whatever sanction hits them, though I don't see it having any effect on Ripple itself.
So if Ripple Labs is shut down, the network will go on just fine and all transactions will be accounted for in the ledger?

How will Ripple Labs comply with government sanctions?

How do any core bitcoin developers left in the US intend to comply with government sanctions?
It doesn't matter where Bitcoin core developers are if they stay anonymous.

Yeah but the bitcoin core developers do not seem to be mostly anonymous.
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April 07, 2014, 10:30:02 PM
 #145

Ripple is centralized....

Bitcoin is not centralized....

Bitcoin is 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000^100000000000 times better than Ripple.

Actually you're an alt account noob.

Mining has become increasingly centralized and exchanges are centralized.
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April 07, 2014, 10:32:51 PM
 #146

How will Ripple Labs comply with government sanctions?
Similar to "sanctioning" the Bitcoin foundation there is not a lot to "sanction" at Ripple Labs to begin with... the network can and will go on, no matter what RL does.

I guess they would just follow whatever sanction hits them, though I don't see it having any effect on Ripple itself.
So if Ripple Labs is shut down, the network will go on just fine and all transactions will be accounted for in the ledger?

How will Ripple Labs comply with government sanctions?

How do any core bitcoin developers left in the US intend to comply with government sanctions?
It doesn't matter where Bitcoin core developers are if they stay anonymous.

Yeah but the bitcoin core developers do not seem to be mostly anonymous.
Well, Satoshi for one. Cryptocurrency developers are growing geometrically. Who knows who will be the next coding superstar? Privacy is an important subject to many of them.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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April 07, 2014, 10:48:45 PM
 #147

Well, Satoshi for one. Cryptocurrency developers are growing geometrically. Who knows who will be the next coding superstar? Privacy is an important subject to many of them.
Satoshi is gone for over 3 years now (he was one of the very few anonymous core devs) and developer numbers seem to grow horizontally (everyone is creating their own forks left and right), not so much vertically (developing "deeper" into the system) unfortunately. This is a bit off-topic though...

https://www.coinlend.org <-- automated lending at various exchanges.
https://www.bitfinex.com <-- Trade BTC for other currencies and vice versa.
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April 08, 2014, 12:17:40 AM
 #148

I see Ripple also tried their own quasi-mining attempt with the Computing for Good project.  But like everything else they do, it fails before it even gets off the ground.

What are you talking about? It has been off the ground for months, it only got temporarily halted because a) the distribution was not fair b) IBM revamped the website which messed with RippleLab's code

We've got ourselves another Bitcoin retard!

Quote
Team,

We’re writing to you with the sad news that we have decided to phase out the Computing for Good giveaway--in its current form--over the next month. This decision was not easy.

Quote
We’re winding down the giveaway during April 2014, and will first shut off new user registration, and then slowly decrease the amount of daily distributed XRP.

https://ripple.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=6343

I see nothing temporary about this.  Show me where the project is going to continue.

1ProphetnvP8ju2SxxRvVvyzCtTXDgLPJV
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April 08, 2014, 12:48:23 AM
 #149

Why did Ripple Labs choose to create XRP rather than use Bitcoin to secure their transactions?
Some reasons I can think of (I do not work for or am affiliated with Ripple Labs by the way, so these are just what I think their reasons are):

BTC are very slow (orders of magnitude slower) to confirm compared to Ripple's ledgers.

Ripple has a very low transaction rate at the moment and very few gateways and validators compared to Bitcoin. It's too soon to tell which would be faster on equal footing. Normal purchases are reasonably assured with zero confirmations.

Jed said from the beginning he doesn't like the idea of burning electricity to secure the network.
Electrophobia?

Ripple validators would need to track the ledger _and_ the Bitcoin block chain.

That depends on what you are using Bitcoin for. Coordinating an attack on the ledger and on Stratum would be very difficult, so you wouldn't need a blockchain to scrub.

Bitcoin scales poorly, if transactions on Ripple were done on Bitcoin, transaction volume would go through the roof (reminds me that I have to collect stats about transaction volume), already now Ripple likely has a higher transaction volume than Bitcoin, which is currently hard capped at less than 10 TX/s (imagine being able to only do 10 trades globally per second!)

That's not stopping Colored Coin, Mastercoin, and Counterparty from developing layers over Bitcoin. Bitcoin is growing organically. A baby cheetah does not run 60 mph. Bitcoin is capable of outprocessing every other centralized payment system when the block size limit is increased.

Bitcoin transactions are crazy expensive (https://gist.github.com/gavinandresen/5044482 estimates one typical transaction to cost about 0.8 mBTC).

Bitcoin doesn't need to replace every face to face transaction, but even if it did, compared to other payment systems, it is cheap. Typical transaction fees tend to be 0.1 to 0.3 mBTC. It's possible for such an exception as 0.8 mBTC, but wallet management with coin control will mitigate these costs when smarter wallets are created.


Marketing reasons probably too, also even though it is improving, BTC don't have the best rep out there.

They said the same thing about the internet in the mid '90s. There is no such thing as bad publicity.

It would be kinda hard to get banks to buy BTC first to transact something on Ripple, a fact that Mastercoin, Counterparty et.al. are going to find out soon enough.

Credit unions take care of their community and care about their members. They will adapt to what best servos their membership. But I presume you mean central banks and investment banks. Their services will no longer be required. Crowd funding is the future. There are plenty of jobs for bank employees in the food service industry.

Of course also the possibility to make/earn money from the system while being able to go fully open source with it asap (they do not earn money by providing the infrastructure or software, they earn money by people using their product and they hope for the network effect to kick in so there is no fork emerging that is more popular than their network)
Motivating development is a double edge sword. Financial incentives create observational bias due to the strong emotional nature of those invested. That's why I advocate a focus on Bitcoin in order to share resources and gain from the greater adoption rather than early adoption speculation. Bitcoin has been growing exponentially and with each year it gains more momentum.

They messed up a few things too by the way, calling XRP "ripples" is what bugs me most. Instead of calling the smallest unit (1 µXRP) "drop", they should have jsut called the whole currency "droplets", "waves" or something else. Especially their first target market (this forum) did simply treat it as another altcoin and by having the same name, it messed up a lot imho. (It's like a large bitcoin exchange calling itself "Bitcoin" - just see the confusion with The Block Chain and blockchain.info already)

Naming conventions tend to be organic. In my opinion, the most significant quantity of bitcoins is the minimal dust unit of 5300 Satoshis (plus transaction fee) which should be the base unit for now. They will probably be the base units of Colored Coins.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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April 08, 2014, 12:55:06 AM
 #150

Well, Satoshi for one. Cryptocurrency developers are growing geometrically. Who knows who will be the next coding superstar? Privacy is an important subject to many of them.
Satoshi is gone for over 3 years now
OMG! How did he die? Or maybe you mean they are using their own names now and are working atomically on Bitcoin and its derivatives. Parallel projects don't hurt Bitcoin. Their failures make Bitcoin look stronger. Many of their new ideas can still be incorporated into Bitcoin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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April 08, 2014, 12:55:42 AM
 #151

so far, NO ONE can explain even one benefit of Ripple.  is this a joke?

I asked you a question so I could address your concerns - the fact that you're ignoring me and just postulating the lack of benefits of Ripple suggests you have an agenda.

I didn't see the question , what is the question

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April 08, 2014, 12:47:54 PM
 #152


1) Ripple predates bitcoin
2) *Ripple Labs* is trying to get the big business and banks behind it -- bu tremember Ripple Labs is approximately 0% of the network.  Some of the rest of the network have given up on it.  Some of the rest of the network is working to get big business and banks behind it.  Some of the network is trying to make things work in house, between friends or in other situations that have nothing to do with big business.   And guess what?  The latter two categories outweigh ripple labs' efforts by several orders of magnitude.   Like Bitcoin, Ripple is not a business.  It's a collection of communities and businesses.  It's basically a very small economy.  That's like saying "Guatemala is trying to get big business and banks to invest"....sure it's probably true, that the government of Guatamala does these things but this ignores the vast majority of effort and projects undergone in that economy.  "A major mover with the right backing" cannot outmove a billion chinese people realizing that Ripple is useful to them in organizing their lives without government.  That's where we're trying to go.

3) Stop calling them 2.0 platforms.  Bitcoin 1.0 isn't released, and there will, someday be a Bitcoin 2.0, and these platforms are not that.  This is abuse of version numbers for political reasons.
 

1. Some distant relative of Ripple that absolutely doesn't resemble Ripple of today was around before.  But the architect of the modern Ripple "Jed McCaleb" didn't start writing code until 2011, long after bitcoin started and he has stated himself that he wanted Ripple to be what Bitcoin wasn't.  From Wikipedia, "This led to the development of a new Ripple system in 2011 by Jed McCaleb. It was designed to eliminate Bitcoin's reliance on centralized exchanges, use less electricity than Bitcoin, and perform transactions much more quickly than Bitcoin."  So yes, Ripple as we know it came after Bitcoin and was a response to it. 

2. Without the work that Ripple Labs has done, there would be 0 Ripple!  Oh yeah, and by the way, who owns most of the Ripple?  That is a pretty big deal.  Usually if somebody owns more than half of the money, they also hold the keys.  I am sure Ripple Labs is doing more.  I am just guessing they are monitoring the network and trying to secure it.  I am also just guessing to they are working and testing new versions of code that will later be released with their stamp of approval.   

3.  Bitcoin was the first generation cryptocurrency using the blockchain.  There are lots of other first generation coins.  The 1.0 and 2.0 doesn't refer to version release numbers, it refers to generations of technology.  Since Ripple was not a clone of Bitcoin but was redesigned from the ground up to be a completely different platform (yes, it is a platform) that is more robust, handles more processes, and is quicker and easier, it represents a generational shift in between the first generation platforms.  So, yes it is a second generation platform but instead of writing "second generational platform", it is much easier to say "2.0".  There are many others including CounterParty, MasterCoin, Bitshares, and NXT.  Ethereum will at least be a 2.0 and maybe even a 3.0 depending on how a person looks at it.  By the way, "3.0" symbolizes for "third generation platform". 

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April 08, 2014, 02:47:29 PM
 #153

what is good about ripple? why would i use it? Huh

Depends on where you're coming from. If you're a bitcoin user, its main benefit is as a distributed fiat / crypto exchange system. In the future, given enough adoption, it can also function as a Bitpay + reverse Bitpay system.

Exactly. Its not a competitor to bitcoin. Ripple is different in many ways and plays a different role. Ripple is currency agnostic, what means that you can use it to trade whatever you want. For bitcoiners, for example, where many tx right now happens off-blockchain, based on trust relationships with exchanges and payment processors, ripple is a good option because is puts sellers and buyers from different exchanges in the same place. Bitstamp is a ripple gateway, so you can withdraw BTC or USD to your ripple wallet and from there, place orders to buy from other entities (individuals or companies), like Justcoin or Kraken.
If you don't like cryptos, you can use ripple to trade FIAT currencies, Gold, dymes, Forever Stamps, etc.

Ripple brings a decentralised discovering and trading system for whatever people think has value, no reason to hate it.

People who might hate ripple are entrepreneurs who are over committed to a "there must be only one" philosophy, very similar to actual bankers philosophy.
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April 08, 2014, 04:40:23 PM
 #154

Bitcoin is better !!
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April 08, 2014, 05:52:25 PM
 #155

...
So who "controls" the ripple protocol. You talk about nodes. Bitcoin is controlled by a democracy of hash power. Who can implement/control the ripple protocol?

Who 'controls' TCP/IP?  Protocols are not 'controlled'.  If you speak the protocol to a node on the network, the network will listen to you, and you become part of it.  Ripple is not really that democratic, it is more consensus-based.  This might be a little hard to wrap your head around, but it can work.

TCPIP suffers from the double spend problem which is why is isn't used to transfer money.
So the only way we have been able to solve that problem is thru an open ledger, that open ledger is agreed upon by everyone (consensus). In bitcoin hash power (and the economic motivation that stems from having hash power) dictates the open ledger, what dictates maintainence of a trustworthy open ledger in ripple?



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Rainbot
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April 08, 2014, 06:53:13 PM
 #156


3.  Bitcoin was the first generation cryptocurrency using the blockchain.  There are lots of other first generation coins.  The 1.0 and 2.0 doesn't refer to version release numbers, it refers to generations of technology.  Since Ripple was not a clone of Bitcoin but was redesigned from the ground up to be a completely different platform (yes, it is a platform) that is more robust, handles more processes, and is quicker and easier, it represents a generational shift in between the first generation platforms.  So, yes it is a second generation platform but instead of writing "second generational platform", it is much easier to say "2.0".  There are many others including CounterParty, MasterCoin, Bitshares, and NXT.  Ethereum will at least be a 2.0 and maybe even a 3.0 depending on how a person looks at it.  By the way, "3.0" symbolizes for "third generation platform". 
The way I see it, blockchain transactions as direct currencies are Bitcoin. Derivative backed currencies and instruments that only use minimal blockchain transactions for security are B2. Complex large scale multisig and nLockTime investments will be B3 because they will define entirely new business models. Perhaps Ethereum or something similar will fill that role, but more likely it will be a Microsoft or Oracle product.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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April 08, 2014, 09:39:11 PM
 #157

so far, NO ONE can explain even one benefit of Ripple.  is this a joke?

I asked you a question so I could address your concerns - the fact that you're ignoring me and just postulating the lack of benefits of Ripple suggests you have an agenda.

I didn't see the question , what is the question

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=557988.msg6101868#msg6101868
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April 08, 2014, 09:41:39 PM
 #158

Ripple has a very low transaction rate at the moment and very few gateways and validators compared to Bitcoin. It's too soon to tell which would be faster on equal footing. Normal purchases are reasonably assured with zero confirmations.  


24 hr Transaction Volume:

$1,349,494.36

Granted that's not bitcoin big, but that's still not too shabby for an average day.

( http://www.ripplecharts.com/#/ )

The bigger question is what does volume even mean on Ripple?
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April 08, 2014, 09:50:13 PM
 #159

So yes, Ripple as we know it came after Bitcoin and was a response to it. 

Technically true but they had a lot to start with, including protocol detail up to and including the ideas surrounding XRP.  Yes it's grown a great deal beyond what it was, but it is effectively the same system that had a prototype back in 2007.  There's a reason why Ryan Fugger got bought out.

2. Without the work that Ripple Labs has done, there would be 0 Ripple!  Oh yeah, and by the way, who owns most of the Ripple?  That is a pretty big deal.

You mean 'most of the XRP'.  XRP is not really money, regardless what RL will tell you, and there is enough of it out there for the Ripple network to work even if the rest were hoarded, and even if it's not distributed in a fair manner, this is not a problem for the system.  This has been argued over and over again.  Unless you consider XRP to be a threat to bitcoin, in which case why would you bother?  Bitcoin has the avantage of network of scale and trust and a 4 year lead on that.  There is no contest.

Instead of writing "second generational platform", it is much easier to say "2.0". 


It is godamned lazy is what it is.
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April 08, 2014, 09:57:53 PM
 #160

Ripple, the annoying "coin" I keep have to filter away on coinmarketcap.com

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