DOES WHALES MANIPULATION CONTRADICT BITCOIN DECENTRALIZATION?

[PhilosopherKing]

've been going back and forth and racking my brain on this for sometime and it keeps being me back to the same thing. It is fine we'll say bitcoin is decentralization, no central authority, no single control. We'll still say and know that the price can get swunged by some group of guy that we know as WHALES.

this leaves some questions open because we'll say bitcoin is decentralized, should it not reflect in the whole part of it behaviour.

Bitcoin isn't physical, so I don't think anyone has seen bitcoin before. The part that is visible is the price that most lots interact with everyday. That makes the price part of BTC. If small circle of people can come together and swing the price by the moves they take in the market, is bitcoin still fully decentralize in all aspects?

yes, the WHALE guys don't control bitcoin, they can't change bitcoin rules, that part a'int questionable. Just questioning whether bitcoin is decentralize when a important part of it which is the price is not.

Feel free to drop you thought.

[Luke3bird]

Bitcoin isn't physical, so I don't think anyone has seen bitcoin before.

Bitcoin is a digital product and you can not see bitcoin physically literally.

There are collectibles that are physical existence with Bitcoin private keys hidden for the collectible owners but even so, it's not Physical bitcoin. It's just a physical stuff with attached Bitcoin private key.

[TheUltraElite]

The exchanges show bitcoin price in terms of fiat. Hence buying/selling will have an impact on "price".

But decentralization means no central authority is controlling the flow of bitcoin. Which has nothing to do with price in terms of fiat currency. So whales can buy sell what they want, it will impact the price but they cannot control the flow of bitcoin.

Price is important only when it comes to trading, otherwise the value of 1BTC is always 1BTC.

[X-ray]

First thing first, how can you be sure the market movement is controlled by whales instead of organic market movement? Is there data to back this because an inflow from institutional investor doesn't mean whales controlling the market.

Microstrategy is buying bitcoin by the billions, market doesn't even move by inch. Bitcoin's trading volume and market cap is too big for some random whales to control it.

In the worst case of bitcoin's price getting manipulated by the whale, bitcoin is still decentralized. Transactions are uncensored. Everything happens through consensus. Anyone who use bitcoin as a currency will use it normally.

I have deep belief that price have nothing to do with bitcoin's decentralization.

[legiteum]

We discussed this a while back in a thread I created here:

Bitcoin Whale Theory v1.0

Tl;dr, the market is certainly influenced by Whales, and it's certainly likely that at least some of them are manipulating the market for profit (what would be illegal with stocks is perfectly legal with BTC).

But Whales can't make the price go to zero or a million--they likely make their money with small fluctuations.

As for decentralization:

• Bitcoin is not "decentralized" in any tangible way for ~97% of holders since most use a broker or an app or the ETFs to get BTC.
• Bitcoin's original purpose in decentralization was to avoid governments stopping the network, which is now pointless since digital currencies are perfectly legal, and lots of defacto "centralized" cryptos like ETH, XRP, SOL, etc. are gigantic and used by millions.
• Nobody cares about this, since all that matters is that you sell Bitcoin for a higher price than you paid for it so you can buy more stuff for your life.

[bitbollo]

As decentralized network anyone can "make whatever he want" but basically can't shut off or make any "real change" to the network itself.
Even if Whales have many coins they can't influence how the network works for obviously reason (nodes, miners, protocol structure...)

Whales have been part essential of the growwth of bitcoin ecosystem and network. If they would be "the bad actors" would create a paradox here.

More the coins (hence the network) get strenght = More monetary value (not only FIAT but Service etc) = More decrease their interest to manipulate it.

Like a win win situation... the more the network is valuable due to "good operators" (remember in early times many issues arises with even double spending etc etc...) ... the more each coin has value - a kind of rewarding for your staking/good work for the network. (my humble 2 satoshi on this argument....)

[aoluain]

^
Thats it, so many people are fixated on the FIAT value the market sets on Bitcoin and they
only see it as Bitcoin. They lok at their wallet and can only relate to the FIAT value.

They overlook all the other aspects of Bitcoin, the essential elements which have  contributed
to its survival since 2009.

Whales can move the market and have done so in the past, our best defense against
them is to stay patient and not react to the market spikes. Market spikes are temporary.

[Bastketsrus]

^
Thats it, so many people are fixated on the FIAT value the market sets on Bitcoin and they
only see it as Bitcoin. They lok at their wallet and can only relate to the FIAT value.

They overlook all the other aspects of Bitcoin, the essential elements which have  contributed
to its survival since 2009.

Whales can move the market and have done so in the past, our best defense against
them is to stay patient and not react to the market spikes. Market spikes are temporary.

Yeah true, people focus too much on price and forget the bigger picture. Staying patient and ignoring short-term moves is the better way.

[adultcrypto]

The whales exist only due to the price relative to the quantity of bitcoin they can buy or sell. They have no business with the design and attributes of bitcoin and cannot force any change in the bitcoin protocol. Furthermore, bitcoin decentralization is a core feature of bitcoin that is also independent of the price. The whales can manipulate the price for sure because they have the capital to create imbalance in demand and supply.

[Smartprofit]

What exactly is Bitcoin decentralization? In my view, decentralization consists of three components: mining decentralization, ownership decentralization, and development decentralization. 🙋

Therefore, strictly speaking, we can formalize the concept of decentralization and calculate an index that would show us Bitcoin's current decentralization (as far as I know, such an index does not yet exist). This index will change over time.

It's obvious that, for example, Michael Saylor's Bitcoin purchases worsen the decentralization situation, while forum members' purchases improve it...

To what extent does Bitcoin price manipulation by "whales" reflect Bitcoin's degree of decentralization? In my opinion, it doesn't. ... Price manipulation rather reflects the size of "paper Bitcoin," the very derivatives used to carry out the manipulations. There's no direct connection to Bitcoin itself.  Spot ETFs, stocks, bonds, futures, options, and Polymarket bets: these are all tools for manipulating Bitcoin's price. And the manipulators, in most cases, don't care about Bitcoin itself. Or its price, either. They're only interested in profit.

[mcdouglasx]

Whales can influence the price of Bitcoin in the short term, but at the end of the day, the price is dictated by market supply and demand. Therefore, we cannot assume that this means decentralization is lost. It's like assuming that because mining pools exist, mining is centralized. In short, the price is not fixed by the protocol. Decentralization means that there is no single entity that controls the code; anyone can mine and verify transactions. You can't just print Bitcoin or falsify transactions. Bitcoin's multi-billion dollar influence in the market does not affect decentralization.

[Findingnemo]

All they can do is to only manipulate the prices, but the decentralized nature of bitcoin will continue as it is.

For example one can own 20 million bitcoins but it doesn't mean they have any control over the remaining 1 million bitcoin that is what the no central authority means, the coins will behave as it is and prices are prone to manipulation especially it is free market.

[Luke3bird]

All they can do is to only manipulate the prices, but the decentralized nature of bitcoin will continue as it is.

For example one can own 20 million bitcoins but it doesn't mean they have any control over the remaining 1 million bitcoin that is what the no central authority means, the coins will behave as it is and prices are prone to manipulation especially it is free market.

With majority of bitcoin compares to total supply, the holder can dump those coins on the market but will there be any benefit from such dump?

There will be no benefit while it's challenging to collect such huge Bitcoin portfolios and people who are owners of such portfolios will never do stupid dump like that. They collected bitcoin over a long time for profit, not for loss and they will not dump their coins for triggering a market crash and get loss with their own portfolios.

Small investors don't have big capital and can not have big portfolios like whales have but they can manage their Bitcoin portfolios like whales.
How to manage Bitcoin like a whale?

[hero_the_bossman]

All they can do is to only manipulate the prices, but the decentralized nature of bitcoin will continue as it is.

For example one can own 20 million bitcoins but it doesn't mean they have any control over the remaining 1 million bitcoin that is what the no central authority means, the coins will behave as it is and prices are prone to manipulation especially it is free market.

Although we need to say that if one owns 20 mil of BTC.. he can basically control it So it's not the best case to show up speaking about decentralization.. But I overall agree with you, nobody as of now would be able to gather that much of coin. The market is working against it.

[BitBrainers]

Bitcoin cannot be manipulated. Full stop. What Wall Street manipulates is the paper circus they built around it. ETFs. Futures. Options. Prediction markets. Every one of them a counterfeit claim on a real asset they cannot control.
This is the oldest trick in finance. They did it to gold. Fifty-to-one paper claims on every real ounce. They suppressed the price for forty years. Until they could not anymore.
They will try the same thing with Bitcoin. And they will fail. Because Bitcoin settles on chain every ten minutes. Gold does not. There is no vault to audit. There is only the blockchain. And the blockchain cannot lie.
Every paper Bitcoin eventually has to settle against a real one. When that moment comes, and it is coming, the people holding cold storage win. The people holding tickers get a phone call and a check for a number that no longer means anything.

Not your keys. Not your Bitcoin. Not your future.

[Findingnemo]

All they can do is to only manipulate the prices, but the decentralized nature of bitcoin will continue as it is.

For example one can own 20 million bitcoins but it doesn't mean they have any control over the remaining 1 million bitcoin that is what the no central authority means, the coins will behave as it is and prices are prone to manipulation especially it is free market.

Although we need to say that if one owns 20 mil of BTC.. he can basically control it So it's not the best case to show up speaking about decentralization.. But I overall agree with you, nobody as of now would be able to gather that much of coin. The market is working against it.

Technically they still own that 20 mil bitcoin and only can control 20 mil bitcoins but they can't really have anything to control in how the bitcoin blockchain works, it will just stays the same that is what I said bitcoin will still be decentralized and the remaining coins will not be affected in any away apart from price manipulations.

[Dunamisx]

Bitcoin is not concerned by the influence of the Whales in the market space, either they are buying or dumping could only place a little significance on the market price for a short time, while we solely based on the demand and supply within the Bitcoin network, does Wales could have the ability of manipulating the market price over a short period of time does not make it centralized, this is one of the security measures that has been made available for the network to ensure all activities and not centralized.

[ContentWriter]

We discussed this a while back in a thread I created here:

Tl;dr, the market is certainly influenced by Whales, and it's certainly likely that at least some of them are manipulating the market for profit (what would be illegal with stocks is perfectly legal with BTC).

Do you have hard irrifutable data to back this up? What is the proof that one or more whales are influencing the market of Bitcoin which is worth billions of USD?

[tbct_mt2]

Bitcoin is not concerned by the influence of the Whales in the market space, either they are buying or dumping could only place a little significance on the market price for a short time, while we solely based on the demand and supply within the Bitcoin network, does Wales could have the ability of manipulating the market price over a short period of time does not make it centralized, this is one of the security measures that has been made available for the network to ensure all activities and not centralized.

If considering whales are different than attackers, with me I can easily see that whales do their manipulations in the market for profit. They can Long or Short Bitcoin for profit as well as investment in long term too, but the common purpose is getting profit from Bitcoin market time to time, in a very long term, not in short term so they won't dump Bitcoin to kill the Bitcoin market.

So realizing their manipulations this way, we will see that whales want the market to recover after all, so if I can hold my bitcoin, I will go through hardest time easily and can enjoy the party set up by whales.

[legiteum]

We discussed this a while back in a thread I created here:

Tl;dr, the market is certainly influenced by Whales, and it's certainly likely that at least some of them are manipulating the market for profit (what would be illegal with stocks is perfectly legal with BTC).

Do you have hard irrifutable data to back this up? What is the proof that one or more whales are influencing the market of Bitcoin which is worth billions of USD?

There's certainly lots of evidence. (Go read our original thread).

Circumstantially, it would be utterly stupid for Bitcoin whale not to manipulate the market. As I said, with stocks and other investments this would all be illegal, but with crypto it's perfectly legal, so why not do it? It's basically free money for these guys.