DT1 Operational Security: Why Engagement Is a Trap

[Vod]

(Created with help from AI)

We are DT1. We vetted the DT2 members doing investigative work and we put our names behind the trust scores that keep this forum usable. But it also means we have targets on our backs.

The troll is obvious if you've been here as long as I have: they push something sketchy, tag a DT1 member who stays silent, and declare "even Default Trust won't touch this" — hoping newbies don't look closer. Or they bait a response, twist a few words out of context, and spend the next months/years using your own credibility to sell their narrative. Either way, they profit and your trust score (and earning potential) takes a dive.

This isn't about being right. On an anonymous forum, "winning" an argument with a throwaway account is impossible. The account has nothing to lose and your reputation is the only collateral in play.

What I Ask

If you see a DT1 member staying silent in a thread where they're being baited, don't mistake that silence for ignorance or agreement. It's discipline.
If you see a troll declaring victory because someone didn't bite, don't validate it with a reply that drags you in too. A simple negative trust rating from a DT1 with clean hands carries more weight than any wall of text.
Finally, let your DT2 picks investigate and fight while you let your ratings speak. Stay clean so those ratings still matter when it counts.

Discuss: What patterns have you seen? Where has silence worked, and where has engagement backfired?
DT1-only so we can speak plainly without feeding the cycle we're describing.

[Vod]

Bump - I see most DT1 members are being strategically silent, but for any DT member that wants to bring up any anti-troll ideas, now is your chance.

[holydarkness]

Umm... I'll be honest that I don't know that DT2 are the one we use to do investigative work...... because that won't work for me. My line of work is mostly majorly about bridging between players and casinos where violation is made and it turned into whodunnit, a situation that I have to handle myself because I'm personally in touch with casinos, of which the trust to share and discuss matters were and are and will be built over months [if not years] of active participation that showed them that I am neutral instead of someone who inherently see casino as evil being and corrupt entities.

So yeah, I have to handle things myself.

Why engagement is a trap? Where has silence worked? And where has engagement backfired? Well, I think I can say "just pick any thread in SA that I oversee, you'll see someone who constantly lurking me. And that is where everything is wrong. Engagement always backfire into wall-of-OOT-text as the member kept recalling past cases to built strawman against me, or insist on a thing that they clearly failed to understand correctly, but insist on that as "the fact". Engaging with them to get them aligned with the current situation always turn into wall of derailment text. Silence? I tried to ignore them and had to unignore them after a suspiciously long sudden non-responsive from a player I bridged, and it turned out, they encuraged the player to not engage as I am "corrupt", and I only learned about this after I have to "engage" by not ignoring, so... silence clearly doesn't work.

What patterns have I seen? Well, as I mainly dwell in SA and in SA alone, and rarely walk to this sister thread of her, I engage with very few people, the overseers of the cases who mostly give one or two insight, terms about casinos that I am not familiar with, or POV that beneficial in helping me build the puzzle [I treat every thread as "puzzle" where both parties give me pieces of truth that I need to set and arrange to get the bigger picture called "the truest truth"] the only pattern I see [and very disturbing one] is one specific person shadowing me over and over and over and derail the development of resolution by them constantly giving discouraging post and misleading narrative and false understanding, that I am somewhat sure has to be deliberate as they've been informed about what actually happened, over and over and over, and yet they stick with what they have in their mind and perceive every other thing as misinformation.

Since on your second post you ask for any anti-troll ideas, I will assume you're open for a discussion on what I do to this tro... being. Well: they want spotlight, so I give them the spotlight and watch them squirm when they're forced to put value in where their mouth were. Result? Currently catastrophic as they choose a shortcut of their infamous "peer pressure" instead of really bridging. But I am sitting and drinking my gin as I watch them try to run from the spotlight.

One that I know also work on this personal tr... uhh, stalker of mine: challenge them with something big. It will make them stop and think. And only after that, they will begin to really consider. They currently owed me 1,560,000 USD, an amount they have to pay because they're so adamant about "flag is just a flag and sportsbook doesn't need to obey", oblivious that "turnkey" dynamic and agreement exist. And ironically, a type-3 flag will be raised against them, if they failed to pay me. And all that just because they're so stubborn.

So, tl;dr: in my case engagement or non-engagement is both a trap, a lose-lose case. Solution: confront their intelect with high stake "wager". In my cases they're in form of them embarassing themselves in mediation skill despite them bragging about being in mediation years longer than me, and an inhuman wager that he lost.

Ohh, look, seven days cool down has ended. Yes, this is you, Rating Place

[Vod]

Umm... I'll be honest that I don't know that DT2 are the one we use to do investigative work...... because that won't work for me.

Of course I didn't mean everyone - each person has their own interest, and mine has passed the point of fighting with new biased anonymous trolls.   So you go HD, and I will cheer you on!

These cowards have never accomplished anything in the past, no matter how persistent they may be.   The default trust system was changed by respected members.  The merit system evolved with the help of well known names.  Respected programmers make changes the users want.  Forcing change by obfuscation does not work in controlled threads.  

Once a person outright lies to me, I stop trusting them.  When they repeatedly lie, I remember the past.  I could type "I love children that aren't afraid to laugh loudly" and I would see a partial quote manufacturing a new tone.   So I try not to give them any ammunition, but they are slimy.  :/

[joker_josue]

This way of putting things is very subjective.
Today I might be DT1, tomorrow DT2, and the following week not DT at all.
Therefore, things must be analyzed separately.

First of all, someone who is currently a DT1 should remember that they reached this position through their behavior over time. Therefore, their behavior should not change just because they have become a DT1. The same will apply to DT2.

Secondly, if someone feels they are being unfairly attacked, whether they are DT1 or not, they should seek to defend themselves if they feel they should.

Finally, I think people sometimes take what others say on the internet too personally. Therefore, I think that in cases of trolling, the best solution is always to ignore it. People's actions reveal more than a long debate.

I often say: never argue with a stupid person. You'll stoop to their level, and they'll win because they have experience. 

[Vod]

I often say: never argue with a stupid person. You'll stoop to their level, and they'll win because they have experience.  

They can still copy your words without adding anything relevant, then argue over it anyway.  They think their opinion matters to be in every thread.  Never underestimate the stupidy of a stupid person.

[nutildah]

Ultimately I think you have a good point here. Its good not to take the bait and to try to rise above pointless drama when possible. Sometimes we are tempted to give in but most of the time less is better: present the meat of the argument and let it stand for itself.

Perhaps the most interesting moment of my Bitcoin Conference experience last month was when I sat and talked with Peter Todd for about 5 minutes. I told him about my Faketoshi expose thread, how I was hounded by trolls for years afterward, and how I should've avoided engaging in "NO U" type arguments and bickering.

He said "sometimes negativity is a good thing." 

I'm not sure the story applies to DT issues but there's a lesson in there somewhere.

[Vod]

Ultimately I think you have a good point here. Its good not to take the bait and to try to rise above pointless drama when possible. Sometimes we are tempted to give in but most of the time less is better: present the meat of the argument and let it stand for itself.

I appreciate it man.  Please don't get me wrong - I do respect the way you handle yourself with the trolls - it's just not for me anymore.  Before I made the mistake of trusting repeated lies and had my thick skin pierced I used to be the same way.  You were there - I played around with them the same way you do now.  It's fun and less crowded here when the voices get loud.

In this thread I try to show them that I don't reward temper tantrums.  Then they switch to the repeating game so in the near future they can accuse us of discussions we were not even part of.    We have seen this nasty behavior before in other scammers for years.

[examplens]

This way of putting things is very subjective.
Today I might be DT1, tomorrow DT2, and the following week not DT at all.
Therefore, things must be analyzed separately.

It's important to follow up, and if you become DT2, you have to switch to investigative work. 

Bump - I see most DT1 members are being strategically silent, but for any DT member that wants to bring up any anti-troll ideas, now is your chance.

I don't know if it's called strategy, but some of us, when we don't have anything concrete to say, simply keep quiet. 

Isn't ignoring the most effective way to fight trolls? If they don't have an audience, trolling is futile.

Let me be constructive here. Maybe we could create a system like flags to mark trolls, so someone doesn't accidentally enter a discussion with them. With 2 or 3 DT1 votes, it becomes active and visible on the profile, so everyone can ignore them.

[albon]

If you see a DT1 member staying silent in a thread where they're being baited, don't mistake that silence for ignorance or agreement. It's discipline.

I get your point about seeing silence as discipline, especially when someone is trying to drag you into drama. However, @Vod, silence can sometimes be taken by newbies as silent approval.

I think if a DT1 member doesn't have time to check the thread, they could leave a quick note such as-> [I haven’t reviewed this yet] or [I will look into it later.] This would help readers to do their own research and make it clear that their silence should not be seen as support for what's being promoted there.

After making that clear, they are free to stay silent afterward. At least then people would understand the silence better.

[joker_josue]

This way of putting things is very subjective.
Today I might be DT1, tomorrow DT2, and the following week not DT at all.
Therefore, things must be analyzed separately.

It's important to follow up, and if you become DT2, you have to switch to investigative work. 

Sorry, but I didn't understand this one to continue the investigation...

If you see a DT1 member staying silent in a thread where they're being baited, don't mistake that silence for ignorance or agreement. It's discipline.

I get your point about seeing silence as discipline, especially when someone is trying to drag you into drama. However, @Vod, silence can sometimes be taken by newbies as silent approval.

A newbies doesn't even have the notion of what a DT1 is.

[Vod]

I think if a DT1 member doesn't have time to check the thread, they could leave a quick note such as-> [I haven’t reviewed this yet] or [I will look into it later.] This would help readers to do their own research and make it clear that their silence should not be seen as support for what's being promoted there.

This is what I am trying to avoid.  "Forcing" DT members to do something or not do something, or be considered in favor or not in favor based on action / non-action will never work.   We become trusted when users trust our words/actions, and each of us has our own personality that has served us well to get here.    Imagine the stress waking up in the morning having to mark dozens of threads before you leave for your 12 hour shift.  :/

Excellent discourse though.  This discussion alone can help newbies understand what DT can/cannot do.

[holydarkness]

Bump - I see most DT1 members are being strategically silent, but for any DT member that wants to bring up any anti-troll ideas, now is your chance.

I don't know if it's called strategy, but some of us, when we don't have anything concrete to say, simply keep quiet. 

Isn't ignoring the most effective way to fight trolls? If they don't have an audience, trolling is futile.

Let me be constructive here. Maybe we could create a system like flags to mark trolls, so someone doesn't accidentally enter a discussion with them. With 2 or 3 DT1 votes, it becomes active and visible on the profile, so everyone can ignore them.

If I may insert myself in this, sadly that is not an option for me. I, as DT1 [though that title --I dare say-- serves only as a gold-inked name-tag made from tungsten, as it bear very heavy weight but it give some benefits and credentials of blind-trust, to vouch my own name, when needed, to mediate users] can't just keep quiet.

I have about two blood-hound with butt-hurt feeling, one because I bruised their ego years ago, when they think and vouched for me that I'll mediate blindly and I stand firm in neutral ground. The troll has been following me with Sadako's and Toshi's grudge ever since [the boy named Toshi, right? Tadao?]. Silence and put them on ignore just made me lost grip in mediating both players and casinos to walk with me to the truest truth.

Literally just now, a casino is slipping away from me, and I have to try to grasp them hard, as hard as someone can hold a mist, because they took a look at the thread they're supposed to attend, and saw the hostility and false-narrative made by the user.

That is the extensive of a damage one can made, when one troll left unattended.

And about flag... ironically and sadly, that's one of the way I prepared and seemingly have to take to put some sense into this troll: by a flag, because they got into an agreement with me for something that they're so stubbornly deny, and --very much too late-- they only realized they're on "Oh shit," shit, when it's neck deep in them.

[Vod]

Let me give an example of an interaction I had with a troll this morning.  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5583521.0

Unless he is a reseller for all these companies, these keys do not bring revenue to their owners.    I called him a thief for selling stolen keys (he wrote the subject line), and he replied saying that is proof I am a pedophile.   

He calls that jump reasonable.  I see it as a warning to stay far away from him and his perverted supporters. 

[Stalker22]

~
He calls that jump reasonable.  I see it as a warning to stay far away from him and his perverted supporters. 

You just cant have a reasonable conversation with some people.  Stupid is as stupid does, after all!

Honestly, I have no idea what the best course of action would be in such cases.  Some days I have the patience to feed the trolls and watch the fireworks, and other days I remember that the "Ignore" button is free therapy.

[Vod]

Honestly, I have no idea what the best course of action would be in such cases.  Some days I have the patience to feed the trolls and watch the fireworks, and other days I remember that the "Ignore" button is free therapy.

I really want to help him though.  Jumping from selling stolen keys to posting scenarios of minors in sexual positions is a serious cry for help.   I am going to be reaching out on this one.  

(See?  I engaged, now I'm trapped)

[Stalker22]

I really want to help him though.  
~

You are too soft-hearted for your own good.  I just hope you know what you are getting yourself into here.  Hehe!