FYI: comparing Bitcoin to fiat makes you sound ignorant or lazy or poor

[legiteum]

Imagine a restaurant chain advertising that their pizza is the best in the world, and to demonstrate this they explain how much better they are than their competition:



Would you buy pizza from this restaurant? Probably not. In fact you'd think they are idiots.

That's what people sound like when they say Bitcoin is so much better than USD or other sovereign currencies.

People use USD to purchase things for cash, or to pay for things, and as a measure of relative value. Nobody "invests" in USD. Nobody buys USD in hopes of having more money later. It's not an investment, and nobody looks at it that way. The only explanations for somebody investing in their sovereign currency is that they are:

1. Lazy: they don't feel like doing anything with their money and they let it sit there.
2. Poor: they don't really have any money to invest, they live hand-to-mouth.
3. Ignorant: they aren't aware there are ways to grow your money with investments.

(And it's usually a combination of these).

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is an investment. Sophisticated investors invest in Bitcoin in hopes of it going higher in value in the future. (Yes, it's still used occasionally as a transfer means but in that case BTC is converted in/out of quickly).

Bitcoin competes with stocks, bonds, sports betting, Kalshi, gold, land, and a bunch of other things that are investments in the sense of a purchase being made in the hope that it is later worth more.

When talking about how wonderful Bitcoin is, talk about how much more money you made or would have made had you invested in BTC versus other investments, not something that obviously is not an investment and doesn't try to be.

Bitcoin does not compete with USD, EU, or any sovereign currencies. To say it does is like saying your pizza competes with a plastic disk made for throwing around the backyard.

[HONDACD125]

Well, your example does make sense, because if a brand tries to show that they are better than their competition, they might look stupid and that might make people think that they are probably not better if they have to justify their betterment this way. However, some very big brands still do it, and they do pretty good with how they do it. If you have ever seen some advertisements of Pepsi vs Coke, you would know what I'm talking about, because they often mock each other in their ads in a way that catches the attention of so many people, and it's fun and engaging and it doesn't have the impression we are talking about here.

Bitcoin was not created to become an investment asset, even though it has become one in the present, but Satoshi didn't created it to become this, but since it had a limited supply and we know that when an asset has a limited supply and it starts to get a lot of demand, its value increases eventually, which is what happened with Bitcoin, and slowly, it has now become more of an investment asset than an alternative decentralized P2P payment system, which was why it was created, so I think some comparisons are justified considering why Bitcoin was created and why it is actually better than fiat currencies for a few specific things, like storing your funds on your own without involving a third-party.

[BlackHatCoiner]

Maybe legiteum is ignorant, lazy and poor, as he can't even keep up with his own goalposts.

USD is an investment, as is Bitcoin, as is NVDA, as is gold, as is buying shares of a local business, as is betting on a sports team winning on the weekend. All of these things involve varying degrees of risk, both upside and downside.

Which one is it? Is USD an investment or it isn't?


I'll answer with a humiliating tone. USD is a number-go-down investment relative to bitcoin. Everything that you hold can be traded, and therefore anything you own is an investment relative to something else. If you buy Pokemon cards, and they go up relative to USD, you have a successful investment. If you buy bitcoin, and it goes up relative to Ribeye steak, your purchasing power has gone up.

Maybe excluding fiat currencies from this inviolable nature of value is the ignorant and arrogant thing to do.

It is true however that Bitcoin does not compete with USD in terms of currency usage. It competes with it in terms of US treasuries, and the eventual realization that holding US treasuries will make you poor, while holding bitcoin will make you rich.

[legiteum]

However, some very big brands still do it, and they do pretty good with how they do it.

They compare their expensive pizza to cheaper pizza, or NY style pizza to Chicago-style pizza to make themselves look better.

But they don't compare their pizza to a Toyota minivan. That's what saying, "Bitcoin is so much better than USD!" sounds like.

Bitcoin was not created to become an investment asset, [...]

Correct, but that's not the reality today, and it hasn't been for 15 years. It's like saying the Internet was created for a few scientists to link their test results, or Coca Cola was invented as cold medicine. Maybe interesting history, but that's not even remotely relevant now. Nobody compares Coca Cola to Robitussin because it would sound pretty stupid.

I'll answer with a humiliating tone.

The only one you are humiliating with this sort of talk is yourself. Just saying...

[PrivacyG]

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is an investment. Sophisticated investors invest in Bitcoin in hopes of it going higher in value in the future. (Yes, it's still used occasionally as a transfer means but in that case BTC is converted in/out of quickly).

I have seen investors invest in Dollars in hopes of it going higher in value in the future.  A ton of people from my country keep their savings in Euro to keep their purchasing power or to increase it.

When talking about how wonderful Bitcoin is, talk about how much more money you made or would have made had you invested in BTC versus other investments, not something that obviously is not an investment and doesn't try to be.

You are right.  Dollars are not an investment as they always only make you more poor while Bitcoin gives you more value at the end of the day.

[Ambatman]

Bitcoin does not compete with USD, EU, or any sovereign currencies. To say it does is like saying your pizza competes with a plastic disk made for throwing around the backyard.

It's not competing as a money
It's an alternative
Better as a store of value as history has shown.
They both cater to different need and target market and this market here is saying Bitcoin is better
Because it ticks the box they consider important.



And by the way people invest in dollar
I did when my country was corroded with inflation and USD felt relatively better.

[Yamane_Keto]

US dollar is an investment for countries with high inflation and rapidly depreciating local currencies.
Despite its stable value and reputation as a store of value, gold is an investment when you can't buy stocks, real estate, or dollars.

In the future, Bitcoin's price will stabilize, yet investors will still view it as an investment.

[Alphakilo]

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is an investment. Sophisticated investors invest in Bitcoin in hopes of it going higher in value in the future. (Yes, it's still used occasionally as a transfer means but in that case BTC is converted in/out of quickly).

I have seen investors invest in Dollars in hopes of it going higher in value in the future.  A ton of people from my country keep their savings in Euro to keep their purchasing power or to increase it.

When talking about how wonderful Bitcoin is, talk about how much more money you made or would have made had you invested in BTC versus other investments, not something that obviously is not an investment and doesn't try to be.

You are right.  Dollars are not an investment as they always only make you more poor while Bitcoin gives you more value at the end of the day.

Bitcoin investment is simply just a means to stop your savings investment from being subject to inflation, because it has the potential to rise and double its value in time, even though it still classifies as a medium of exchange, but its value due to its speculative nature is a defense against inflation or the devaluing nature of fiat currency.
Bitcoin isn't a direct replacement for the cash in your wallet it is more like a growth asset hence why it is called digital gold to begin with.

[Frankolala]

No doubts that Bitcoin is a good investment to throw some value into because it increases in value overtime  based on history but that doesn't mean that USD isn't better than a lot of countries Fiat currency. Those countries see USD as an investment to them because the value increases over their Fiat currency with time. However, it's better to hodli Bitcoin than USD because Fiat loses its purchasing value overtime because of endless printing.

[alani123]

I'd argue that a pizza store could advertise their pizza as better in many ways that are much more tangible than how a bitcoiner could explain bitcoin as being better money than USD.

How am I supposed to spend BTC buying coffee? The age old question.
I'd have to wait for many minutes for sufficient confirmations.
Or both of me and the merchant would have to be on an equivalent non-mainnet solution like L2s or LN.

With food things are much more tangible, less philosophical. Our cheese comes from free range cows from our city. We spread each pizza the traditional way by hand bake our dough with flour and olive oil from local producers. This is something your child can understand because eating a variety of foods covers their everyday needs, so everyone has basic food knowledge.

But not everyone has monetary and computer science knowledge. Money is not essential to life. It's a pretty modern tool. It's very recent that money started being used by the masses, although it existed for a couple thousands years in humanity's tens of thousands of hears of existence. And let's not speak about computers, who became popular not much earlier than the 90s. There's people still in their 40s who grew up without computers and had to learn to adapt later in life. And further, just because we use something doesn't mean we have a true understanding of it. But with food, if you don't know how to prepare it you'll either starve or at the very least live a very miserable life.

Anyway, I don't think this is a good argument in the OP.
Bitcoin's good traits have to be promoted but the ability to transact easily isn't really a strong advantage compared to FIAT solutions.

[legiteum]

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is an investment. Sophisticated investors invest in Bitcoin in hopes of it going higher in value in the future. (Yes, it's still used occasionally as a transfer means but in that case BTC is converted in/out of quickly).

I have seen investors invest in Dollars in hopes of it going higher in value in the future.  A ton of people from my country keep their savings in Euro to keep their purchasing power or to increase it.

I get that there might be a few edge cases, but I could probably fit them into the "poor" or "lazy" buckets, too. It's not smart to leave large amounts of money in cash in your portfolio. And with apps like Robinhood and so on, it's easier than ever to move money to better-yielding instruments rather that some particular currency (some sovereign currencies are very volatile and can act like Bitcoin does, e.g. an investment that people use in order to try to make more money).

I also get (as some here have mentioned) that in difficult situations with your country people don't have access to anything else but USD as an alternative to their own country's currency. But people in this situation use either actual USD/EU/etc. or a stablecoin. Bitcoin is about future returns and volatility, not stability.

In the future, Bitcoin's price will stabilize, yet investors will still view it as an investment.

Why would that be? Why will Bitcoin's price ever stabilize? What would cause that? There's certainly no evidence that it is becoming more stable over time, nor does such a thing make any sense for a product that is freely traded.

Of course in other threads we're talking about the US government taking over Bitcoin's governance, and they could turn it into a stablecoin, but that doesn't seem like it's going to happen anytime soon .

However, it's better to hodli Bitcoin than USD because Fiat loses its purchasing value overtime because of endless printing.

This is exactly why I wrote the OP: this is a straw man.

Instead of USD, you can put your money in any number of thousands of investments, not just Bitcoin. Bitcoin competes with those other investments, not USD etc.

[Alpha Marine]

So if the US dollar starts gaining against the British pound, and people who have pounds convert them to dollars to hold, then sell later and make a profit, would that stop the dollar from being a currency?
There's no point trying to box Bitcoin into one. They are not mutually exclusive. It can be a commodity, because obviously, it has the features of a commodity, it can be a tradable asset, a store of value or a currency.
The people advertising the pizza store may be stupid, they may be doing a bad job at advertising their pizza, but they are still a pizza store at the end of the day.

It may not be much, but people receive payments in Bitcoin. I have received payments in Bitcoin for jobs and I have made payemnets in Bitcoin.

I have seen investors invest in Dollars in hopes of it going higher in value in the future. 

I have done it. In 2023, when the political instability in my country, I bought USDT and held it for a while, soon after the elections, the dollar gained against my local currency, and I made a profit. Some people even held till December that year, but my local currency gained again, and they didn't make much. So I don't understand what he's talking about.
I don't know what his agenda against bitcoin is.

[legiteum]

The people advertising the pizza store may be stupid, they may be doing a bad job at advertising their pizza, but they are still a pizza store at the end of the day.

They are also being dishonest because they are implying that their product's only competitor is made out of plastic and tastes terrible. They are trying to make sure none of their customers will ever hear about Domino's or Papa John's.

I don't know what his agenda against bitcoin is.

There's no agenda against Bitcoin here. Perhaps certain proponents of Bitcoin, but not Bitcoin itself.

Bitcoin would be better off if more people more clear about describing it. BTC has outperformed many stocks, land, gold, and other investments, and/or it might have better investment characteristics than those or (one would argue) better long-term prospects.

In other words, nobody asks: "is BTC a better investment than USD?". That's a strawman.

Instead they ask questions like:

* "Is BTC a better investment than gold"

* "Is BTC a better investment than NVDA"

* "Is BTC better than playing bets on PolyMarket"

Etc.

[Alpha Marine]

In other words, nobody asks: "is BTC a better investment than USD?". That's a strawman.

They don't need to ask if BTC is a better investment because people don't traditionally use USD as an investment on its own. They do it against another currency. Not because the dollar does not increase in value on its own, but it rarely happens, and not in a significant way to be an investment.
It would be crazily stupid for an American in America to hold USD in the hope that the value increases. But it would not be stupid for an Indian to convert his INR to USD in the hope that the USD would gain against his currency.

Funny how you also ignored the part where I said I have received BTC for my work and have BTC as an option of payment for clients who are willing to pay in BTC. You also ignored the part where I said I've paid payments in BTC. I'm talking cross-border payments that would have needed an intermediary, more fees and more time.

You can't tell me you have not seen services and businesses online, at least, that accept Bitcoin as a means of payment. So what do you call that? Isn't that Bitcoin as a currency?
I have told you that a thing doesn't need to be only a currency, or only an asset, or only a commodity, or only a store of value. Maybe in the traditional sense, it may be so, but when a thing has the characteristics of more than one, then it can be both or even more.

In fact, it is because Bitcoin is a currency with superior qualities that makes it a great asset today. If Bitcoin were built just as an asset and nothing more, it most likely wouldn't have been what it is today. An asset has to give value to have value. If you take away the currency side of Bitcoin, then what is it? It's nothing, it's just a beautifully written code.
This is what people who criticise Bitcoin as an asset miss. They ask questions like "So what does Bitcoin give?" Since gold is a precious metal, and equity is part of a company. That is because they ignore the currency aspect of it, and that is what gives Bitcoin value.

If the USD had a "halving" to reduce its supply and a limited supply alone, you would see that people would buy it and hold, even though it is centralised, hoping for its value to increase because reducing the supply of a thing when the demand remains the same or increases, will increase the price of that thing.  But this won't stop the USD from being a currency. Would it?

So the better question should be "Is Bitcoin a better currency than USD?"
And yes, it is. Unlike USD (and all other fiat currencies), with Bitcoin, you don't need a bank or any other payment system to send money to another person, as long as the recipient is willing to accept BTC.  You can send that money to any country without any "middleman".
You don't have to worry about the devaluation of your currency. Your savings won't be eaten by inflation.
It may not be among the most popular currencies or the most used, but when you compare it against any other fiat, it's superior.

Your argument should be on the fact that people no longer use Bitcoin for what it "truly" is or what it was "meant to be", since most people use it as an investment or store of value. But with the genius of Bitcoin, everybody is free to use it however they see fit. They can decide to hold, use it to buy pizza, use it to preserve their wealth or whatever way they see fit. It is not a cult that says, "You must use it like this"

[X-ray]

People use USD to purchase things for cash, or to pay for things, and as a measure of relative value. Nobody "invests" in USD. Nobody buys USD in hopes of having more money later. It's not an investment, and nobody looks at it that way.

Bitcoin, on the other hand, is an investment. Sophisticated investors invest in Bitcoin in hopes of it going higher in value in the future. (Yes, it's still used occasionally as a transfer means but in that case BTC is converted in/out of quickly).

First thing first, there are people who legitimately invest into USD out there especially from a country with weak foreign currency. They don't buy gold but USD, why? because it's very liquid and can be used for international transaction in case they want to do transaction settlement.

Second, Bitcoin was initially designed as a currency, the internet currency to be precise. The limited total supply make it deflationary but it's still a currency regardless. Don't be too rigid. Anything that can be used for payment and have value can be used for both currency and investment tool.

[BlackHatCoiner]

I don't know what his agenda against bitcoin is.

There's a conflict of interest. He's the creator of this "Haypenny", which is a centralized service that allows you to create and send memecoins. It's advertised as "the fastest digital currency", which explains his misunderstandings on final settlement and how bitcoin is "slow".

I'm afraid time is too valuable to sit and write on a Bitcoin forum with no financial incentive. Very few people left still do this.

[legiteum]

Your argument should be on the fact that people no longer use Bitcoin for what it "truly" is or what it was "meant to be", since most people use it as an investment or store of value. But with the genius of Bitcoin, everybody is free to use it however they see fit. They can decide to hold, use it to buy pizza, use it to preserve their wealth or whatever way they see fit. It is not a cult that says, "You must use it like this"

Yes, I deal with the real world and not the world a few religious people want to see it .

When you ask me what "Christmas" is, I'll tell you that it's about Black Friday, Black Monday, the Boxing Day sales, and the thing the world's retail calendar revolves around.

Others bring up this "Jesus Christ" thing, which apparently had something to do with Christmas... 2000 years ago .

Today, Bitcoin is about investment. It is a terrible means of money transfer compared to its competitors, and very few (although not zero) people use it that way--and 99.9% of the business of Bitcoin is focused on its role as an investment instrument.

Hence, when people say "Bitcoin", most people think, "investment". Not all, but most. That was the message of the OP: an FYI to people who use Bitcoin in a way that most don't, or have a religious attachment to it the most people do not understand.

Sophisticated investors look at yield and ask themselves, every day, whether they are getting the best yield for their savings. They only use USD or some other currency as a temporary location for funds to move money from one investment to another, or to immediately spend it on themselves. People with very little money don't have access to sophisticated tools like Robinhood because they live in countries that... have problems. This is definitely a niche where people cannot look at investing the way most western people do.

I get that, in this posting, I've been a bit of an asshole by using harsh language to describe people who are in these situations. I apologize for that.

If you can get past the poor phrasing on my part, the message is still useful: the average developed-world upper-middle class investor would probably have the same biases I've presented here: that comparing Bitcoin to USD sounds... wrong to them (and even sounds like slimy marketing-speak, i.e. somebody trying to compare their product to something that is a strawman).

[...] "Haypenny", which is a centralized service that allows you to create and send memecoins. [...]

Haypenny is not a memecoin, nor is it a platform for memecoins. Haypenny is a stablecoin designed for very small payments, such as unlocking a news article, and transactions can be as small as a penny with zero transaction fees and settlement in milliseconds.