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Author Topic: Lightning and Ark are Bitcoin, not an altcoin :)  (Read 634 times)
legiteum
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Today at 01:08:46 AM
 #61

In other words, you need to wait for the transaction to have the appropriate number of confirmations to be sure you haven't been ripped off just like you do when you don't use LN and use the Bitcoin chain natively.
No. Read the post(s) again, or read the Lightning whitepaper, or ask an AI, whatever.


I've pasted several ChatGPT answers here. You guys don't seem to like them, so you ignore them.

Quote
You _only_ need an on chain transaction if the channel partner cheats - and he can only cheat on chain.

Correct, and you have no way of knowing they cheated until after the transaction--by definition. Hence you need to check every single transaction to make sure, and you need to do this before you deliver whatever goods you would deliver in exchange for the transaction. That is, unless you fully trust your trading partner, but if you trust them, there's no point in using Bitcoin and you can instead use any number of traditional centralized trading mechanisms.

No matter how you phrase and re-phrase and re-re-phrase the functionality of LN, you can't get around the fact that, fundamentally, LN and all L2s essentially batch up transactions for later execution on the main Bitcoin blockchain, and before they do that, you have no way of knowing whether the transaction is valid or not--unless you check each transaction on the chain, thereby defeating the purpose of the L2.

I've always wondered why L2s even exist since they are a completely useless waste of time, and the market has overwhelmingly agreed with this. Now I see that it's a crutch Smiley. For some, L2s have to exist and magically mitigate Bitcoin's fundamental architectural tradeoff, which is a story one can tell to any audience as longs they have zero technical acumen. Hence that audience can be lead to believe that "Bitcoin" really will run every single transaction on the planet someday because you've expanded the definition "Bitcoin" to be Bitcoin and also not-Bitcoin.

d5000 (OP)
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Today at 02:27:40 AM
 #62

I've pasted several ChatGPT answers here. You guys don't seem to like them, so you ignore them.
These were not related to my question but to some irrelevant topic. And you continue to evade the question, and any technical details.

Let me rephrase the question for you:

You said that "some entity" or "node" in LN can "pretend" that they made a transaction to your wallet, but they didn't, and you would lose the funds due to that.

Again, I want to know which entity is that exactly (hint in the last post) and how they can do to convince you that they transacted coins to you.

I also want to know what changes if the node of your channel partner has a "malicious fork" of the software, how this entity can then trick the Lightning contracts (HTLCs/PTLCs and RSMCs) and steal funds without you being able to exit via your own branch of the HTLC/PTLC/RSMC.

If you make such a claim, you have to explain it. Otherwise I can also claim anything Tongue

Correct, and you have no way of knowing they cheated until after the transaction--by definition. Hence you need to check every single transaction to make sure, and you need to do this before you deliver whatever goods you would deliver in exchange for the transaction.
No, wrong Smiley

Have you read any of my posts or any material about Lightning?

Yes, you have to observe the blockchain, but once you do and find out someone tried to cheat, you can re-claim your funds. The transaction to do that is already on your device, you only have to broadcast it.

This does not mean that they can just cheat and you don't notice. It's a two step process. If you try to cheat, then your channel partner will punish you (LN-penalty, Eltoo works differently but I don't like Eltoo).

Again you don't trust. You observe and if something looks wrong, you punish.

LN is indeed a bit of a bundling mechanism, but most transactions (nearly all of them) never need to see the chain. Why would you cheat if you're punished in nearly all cases, because all the "victim" needs is a Bitcoin client able to broadcast a transaction? The risk-reward profile is simply too bad for an attacker.

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legiteum
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Today at 04:42:11 AM
 #63

I've pasted several ChatGPT answers here. You guys don't seem to like them, so you ignore them.
These were not related to my question but to some irrelevant topic. And you continue to evade the question, and any technical details.


They were absolutely relevant, and I've gone over (and over and over and over) technical details.

Quote
LN is indeed a bit of a bundling mechanism, but most transactions (nearly all of them) never need to see the chain. Why would you cheat if you're punished in nearly all cases, because all the "victim" needs is a Bitcoin client able to broadcast a transaction? The risk-reward profile is simply too bad for an attacker.

In the world of info security, "nearly" is also known as, "100% compromised".

But okay, fine, I'll use some of the LN nomenclature instead of talking in generalities about architectural trade-offs. I've been doing this a long time and tend to trust undeniable paradoxes and have thus learned that the details don't matter, but... what the heck...

Lighting works by first making a transaction on the Bitcoin blockchain to transfer sats into a shared (two key) wallet.

Right off the bat, this is a non-starter for most transaction contexts, since most typical services on the Internet will not know ahead of time with whom they are transacting. Hence, in most applications, they will need to perform an on-chain transaction for every single new transaction. This is probably the first reason LN doesn't seriously compete with native digital currencies--because in all practicality, you need to perform an on-chain (read: slow/expensive) transaction for every interaction.

Hence, using Lightning without the Lightning Network is, for almost every application, a pointless waste of time and needless increased complexity and risk, aka you are much better using the Bitcoin chain directly.

Now, if you use LN, you have a different set of problems, and in all practicality you are going to be doing a lot of on-chain transactions in order to provide liquidity to the given destination. For starters, you need to take money out of your wallet and put it in a channel--and if you want it back, you need to close your channel, and when you close your channel, you need to make an on-chain transaction. And also, as we've discussed, LN breaks the religion of Bitcoin's decentralization since you are now absolutely dependent on a small number of well-connected servers.

Hence when you use Lightning with your own channel, or when LN doesn't facilitate the transaction (which can happen a LOT), you actually do DOUBLE the amount of on-chain transactions (open, transact, close).

Now, one could argue that LN solves this as long as every single Bitcoin user uses LN--hence you would just keep all of your Bitcoin locked in your channel, and thus not available to spend on anything non-LN.

In other words, if the WHOLE WORLD was LN, and that's the way every single Bitcoin transaction occurred, then you would probably see consistently lower transaction latency, but then there wouldn't be any reason to have the Bitcoin chain itself.

So YES, I absolutely understand how Lighting and LN works, and NO, it doesn't create magic that gets you around universal trade-offs. Centralized=fast, decentralized=slow. That's the law of the land.

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Today at 11:29:05 AM
 #64

[...] if you ask those disingenuous people if there was a situation that someone actually cheated in the Lightning Network, they won't tell you anything because THEY CAN'T.
So just to be clear, you consider any technology that you haven't read has been compromised to be completely safe? Are you sure about that?
Did I claim that any technology is completely safe?

--SNIP--


You're telling us something theoretical, and yes, what you're debating may be true. And that's your right to debate about it. BUT it does NOT mean that, practically and necessarily, what you say is a fact.

  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Because the moment you claim the theory as fact, then that's mere FUD, ser.

My question to you is practical,

How many times have nefarious entities successfully cheated and stole Bitcoin in the Lightning Network? I believe ZERO, no?

Satofan44
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Today at 12:13:28 PM
 #65

How many times have nefarious entities successfully cheated and stole Bitcoin in the Lightning Network? I believe ZERO, no?
There has never been a single publicly verifiable case of anyone stealing Bitcoin in the LN from someone else using these alleged methods. Actually there are basically no unverifiable stories of this happening eithyer -- sure someone could make it up now just to spite us, and maybe someone did write such bullshit in anti-Bitcoin camps such as Bitcoin Cash or Bitcoin SV or some other shitcoin like the scammer in this thread. This theoretical concern is completely pointless and whoever default to it is an idiot, it is like throwing a tantrum and giving up on Bitcoin because the hardware that it runs on is not completely open source from the beginning till the end. Yeah the world is not perfect, grow the fuck up -- to the "developer" that threw a tantrum about this "unsolvable attack vector" which nobody has ever managed to exploit against anyone. This kind of bullshit only creates FUD and anxiety in others, it does not do anything else.

LN in the real world works flawlessly as long as there is enough liquidity for what you are trying to do. In the past several years I have never had a single transaction fail or even get delayed. It is beautiful for in person payments.


@d5000 at which point do I call the "it is time to stop feeding the troll" card?

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