[INFO - DISCUSSION] Radar.Chat - private messenger with BTC lightning payments

[cygan]

yesterday, the following new open source app was released, which combines encrypted messaging with self-custodial Bitcoin lightning payments.
this app was launched by the developers of the well-known Cake Wallet. in addition, radar.chat is a fork of the Signal messenger and its built on its battle-tested encryption protocol
right now radar.chat is only available for android mobile devices:

https://github.com/radar-labs/radar-android/releases/tag/v1.0.4
https://github.com/radar-labs/Radar

[Kruw]

It doesn't use Lightning, it uses statechains (which are custodial).

[Pmalek]

Radar.Chat claims that everything is self-custodial and if you lose your seed, you lose your bitcoin. They have no way to recover anything, is what they say. But at the same time, the idea was to make the app as simple as possible. Users aren't managing the channels or the liquidity. Radar.Chat owns the nodes and take care of everything in the background. It's worth asking what would happen if all that infrastructure fails and gets wrecked? So it's probably not as self-custodial as managing your own lightning node. Feels weird saying that. Something either is or isn't (self) custodial. There is no middle.

Anyways, Radar.Chat claims they created their app with privacy in mind. There are no ads and no trackers.
At the moment it can only be installed from GitHub. The app is not yet available on the PlayStore.

[Kruw]

Anyways, Radar.Chat claims they created their app with privacy in mind. There are no ads and no trackers.

They are lying, the statechain operator can track every transaction.

[ABCbits]

Some details on their homepage really confuse me. It currently don't have FAQ section that cover common question such as how to backup and restore the wallet and LN channel.

No starting from scratch.

Radar is built on Signal’s trusted messaging network, so the people you already talk to come with you. No rebuilding your network. No new account necessary.

AFAIK Signal itself use centralized server. Since Radar is different application, i don't understand how they have access to use "Signal’s trusted messaging network", which probably refer to Signal centralized server.

On non-technical side, what happen if someone install both Radar and Signal? Will new message from other people shown on both apps?

[Mia Chloe]

~snip

Thumbs up for bringing this here. Anyways it's a good one looks a lot like Venmo and a couple other payment softwares I haven't really tried it out but it's really a fine idea looks a lot like having something as easy as apple pay but in this case for bitcoin. I tried looking them up on play store but they aren't there yet.

I'll go through their GitHub. Nevertheless how encrypted and private is their chat? It would be really interesting if they had something very private like simple X or even better.

[LoyceV]

right now radar.chat is only available for android mobile devices:

The website shows it's in the Apple App Store now.

Radar.Chat claims that everything is self-custodial and if you lose your seed, you lose your bitcoin. They have no way to recover anything, is what they say. But at the same time, the idea was to make the app as simple as possible. Users aren't managing the channels or the liquidity. Radar.Chat owns the nodes and take care of everything in the background. It's worth asking what would happen if all that infrastructure fails and gets wrecked? So it's probably not as self-custodial as managing your own lightning node. Feels weird saying that. Something either is or isn't (self) custodial. There is no middle.

If all you need to recover the channel state is a seed phrase, I don't think it's really self-custody. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if it is, they should say so. I've never really liked LN in self-custody. The fact that you need to create a backup after each transaction is just annoying. There's always a potential point of failure.

Some details on their homepage really confuse me. It currently don't have FAQ section that cover common question such as how to backup and restore the wallet and LN channel.

I've seen that on many projects: they don't offer details, they don't tell you how it really works, but apparently that's what the average internet user wants: just install something without knowing what it does.

No switching apps. No copy-paste. Just open a chat and send

Byteball had this almost 10 years ago already, on an altcoin.

[ABCbits]

Some details on their homepage really confuse me. It currently don't have FAQ section that cover common question such as how to backup and restore the wallet and LN channel.

I've seen that on many projects: they don't offer details, they don't tell you how it really works, but apparently that's what the average internet user wants: just install something without knowing what it does.

No switching apps. No copy-paste. Just open a chat and send

Byteball had this almost 10 years ago already, on an altcoin.

Thread you linked have no mention of "signal" and i didn't find anything related from quick google search with keyword "site:obyte.org signal". But i found this podcast (i only read the transcript) that mostly answer my question. It's really long, so i'll just snip few interesting parts.

Stephan (03:22): Is there any clash if you already have Signal? Do you have to give up your Signal username or is it a separate one? How portable is it?

Seth For Privacy (03:37): We’re totally Signal compliant. You can bring your existing Signal account and log into it in the Radar app. Make a backup first using Signal’s cloud backups (backups beta in settings). Save the recovery key. When setting up Radar, say you’re migrating from Signal, enter the key, and it restores everything. You keep your existing Signal account, contacts, username — nothing changes. Radar just adds Bitcoin on top of where people are already messaging.

Stephan (14:44): Backup method?

Seth For Privacy (15:02): Default is automatic encrypted backup to your Signal profile. For extra security, there’s a standard 12-word seed phrase (prompted after first receive).

Stephan (19:06): Could Signal get upset?

Seth For Privacy (19:18): Possible in theory, but we’re donating monthly to Signal and see this as complementary. Other clients like Molly exist without issues.

[LoyceV]

Thread you linked have no mention of "signal" and i didn't find anything related from quick google search with keyword "site:obyte.org signal".

I didn't mean Signal, I mean a wallet with built-in chat and payment requests.

[Pmalek]

Stephan (03:22): Is there any clash if you already have Signal? Do you have to give up your Signal username or is it a separate one? How portable is it?

Seth For Privacy (03:37): We’re totally Signal compliant. You can bring your existing Signal account and log into it in the Radar app. Make a backup first using Signal’s cloud backups (backups beta in settings). Save the recovery key. When setting up Radar, say you’re migrating from Signal, enter the key, and it restores everything. You keep your existing Signal account, contacts, username — nothing changes. Radar just adds Bitcoin on top of where people are already messaging.

Stephan (14:44): Backup method?

Seth For Privacy (15:02): Default is automatic encrypted backup to your Signal profile. For extra security, there’s a standard 12-word seed phrase (prompted after first receive).

Looks like Seth is talking about backing up and recovering the communication part of the application. Your Signal account with messages and contacts. But you shouldn't be able to back up something non-custodial in that way. If your bitcoin and LN data is tied to your Signal account and a username with a password, it's not non-custodial. If Seth only means the communication part of Radar.Chat is backed up by default in that way, then it's fine. But if you can access your bitcoin in the same manner, then it's account-based and custodial. He makes it sound like both ways are possible and there is no difference between them. That's the confusing part. Maybe I am the only one who is confused. What I understood from the last part is that the 12-word seed backup is equal to the data saved to your Radar.Chat account/profile.

[Kruw]

They are lying, the statechain operator can track every transaction.

More info about the surveillance built into Rader: https://x.com/matthewvuk2/status/2076344901478892028