Existing caste system and classism in the 21st century.

[FanEagle]

To what extent what Mpamaegbu said about the Osu system in Nigeria is not applicable to caste system in India (I mean, that thanks to modernity it is becoming less and less valid or mainstream)? I think that one of the few good things about the American dream is precisely the liberation from the bonds of the belief that people's origins predetermine their destiny, and since it is an ideal that has been exported globally, I understand that this has helped caste-based estates to be increasingly residual globally too.

Maybe it's because of the education I've received, but treating a person based on their cast rather than their values seems illogical to me, even though it's what we all do more or less based on their wealth.

That is literally the whole "American dream" they are selling from there, and that is precisely why people are going there. I would never, but people do. Because you can go there and be a garbage man, and if you do get a chance, you may become a millionaire; the possibility does exist there. But they do not realize the fact that 99.99% of garbage men stay garbage men, they do not become millionaires by finding a product in their garage.

Those are stories they tell you on TV and in movies, but that is not the reality. Just because one in a million did it doesn't change the life of 999.999 of others that stays the same.

[Dogedegen]

To what extent what Mpamaegbu said about the Osu system in Nigeria is not applicable to caste system in India (I mean, that thanks to modernity it is becoming less and less valid or mainstream)? I think that one of the few good things about the American dream is precisely the liberation from the bonds of the belief that people's origins predetermine their destiny, and since it is an ideal that has been exported globally, I understand that this has helped caste-based estates to be increasingly residual globally too.

Maybe it's because of the education I've received, but treating a person based on their cast rather than their values seems illogical to me, even though it's what we all do more or less based on their wealth.

That is literally the whole "American dream" they are selling from there, and that is precisely why people are going there. I would never, but people do. Because you can go there and be a garbage man, and if you do get a chance, you may become a millionaire; the possibility does exist there. But they do not realize the fact that 99.99% of garbage men stay garbage men, they do not become millionaires by finding a product in their garage.

Those are stories they tell you on TV and in movies, but that is not the reality. Just because one in a million did it doesn't change the life of 999.999 of others that stays the same.

The reason is not because the American dream does not work, the reason is that 99.99% of the garbage men do not try to do anything extraordinary to improve their experience, skills, and qualifications. If you pay attention, most workers everywhere are just doing their work without any attempts to grow. Maybe they do some minor things sometimes, but the number of people that actually do a lot to improve themselves irrespective of what job they currently have is very limited. If you looked only at this group and only the examples that are actually doing this and not fake hard workers, then you would see that a very large percentage of people in this group make it. America is a place where these caste ideas do not exist. Having connections and local experience helps a lot like it does everywhere, but many foreigners have come to America and made it really big because they performed excellently. In many parts of the world even in your job they try to keep you down and not promote you as much as possible even if you overachieve, in many places in America this is not the case.

Also the life of people that don't work hard and just do their job as usual should not improve dramatically without them doing something to earn it.

[hafiztalha]

The Caste system and Classism are almost indistinguishable, in the class system, the upper-class or the 1% are all hereditary, Rockefeller, Carnegie, JP Morgan, Rothchild etc, all came from a family tree that has remained in the Upper-class for ages. When you're born in these above listed families, you automatically belong to the upper class, you don't have to work for it. Similarly, in the Caste system, the Brahmins in India, which is the highest rank in this system, which comprises of priests, teachers, and guardians of the sacred knowledge, they do have higher opportunities, than those in the Shudras or Dalits, the lowest level of the cast system. Now try to link the Shudras, and Dalits to the lowest level of the Class system; the working poor and the underclass. You'd find the similarity, these set of people do almost a similar kind of jobs, sweatshops. The terms are just different, but same context. Great thread however.

There is a difference between caste and class, even though they all produce very similar inequalities in the society. Caste system is basically dependent on the birth, and traditionally it is almost impossible for every person to change their caste or to change social status or achievement. On the other side, if you talk about the class system, it is largely because of the income, education occupation or someone’s assets. It is also true that wealthy families pass on their advantages to their children, but that doesn't mean that class system is free from inequality. It is possible for person who is born into a low income family to eventually become wealthy, though it is uncommon but it is evidant.

[el kaka22]

I can't speak on behalf of Caste, but I can tell you that class difference exists everywhere around the world. Let me put it this way: have you seen any person who comes from a royal family line working as a car salesman? I have not. We can safely assume that class still exists; you can move up a class, but rarely go down a class. And if you do, then you must be new at a higher level. Some people may go up a class, and one generation later they may go down, but if you have been in a higher class for over a century, going down requires some scandal; otherwise, you will figure out a way to stay at that class using your network.

That is why classism does work in today's world, and we are facing a lot of issues regarding this. The ones on the top do not want to let go, and they are right to do that, but the thing they do that is wrong, is the fact that they try to actively make sure nobody else gets there, sometimes they do succeed and keep others low, sometimes they fail and one gets away and reaches them, at that point they just accept him and then keep trying to make sure nobody else gets in.

[Compromise me]

Caste system is very strong in different cultures, that has significant affects on their class in the society. However people are now very educated and realizes that it should be eradicated. But still it is in the roots of their system. Especially India, they are in the favour of promoting that culture.

Usually people belongs to Lower class can't get the equall opportunities for the higher post. Even in most of the communities at the time of marriage it becomes hot topic. People belongs to higher class  often unwilling to make any relationship with those ho belongs to lower middle class. Another sad reality of the system is that if the person got higher education, or success because of their hard work, still other mocking them or face discrimination.

[uneng]

What you claim to be classism will always exist, because people are different from each other, and you can't force someone to get along with others who they have nothing in common. What you see nowadays in western world is the state forcing people to get along with each other, and that is one of the reasons why there is a lot of anger, disatisfaction and social retreatment.

It's not something which can be imposed. It's something which should happen naturally, as people feel genuinely comfortable with the idea.

Caste system, on the other hand, is criminal, because it means using the laws of the country to disfavour determined individuals simply for having a blood they consider inferior.

[snowpega]

...

Yeah, I know about this very well, haha. As the caste system is very common in the Pakistan and India. You are born with the caste tag in an inherited way, which can not be changed later on time. But I have also seen some cases where people change their data in government documentation and change their date of birth and their caste. There is one more way to change it, haha. If your daughter or sister is married in the differnt caste.

Then her children's caste will be differnt then yours, and they will be known as the same caste of thier father. On the other hand, classism is a very common thing internationally. High-class people show off their money in different ways in public by using luxurious things, and this can be anything, and such things distinguish them from others by setting standards. Anyway, I don't believe in such things, and I believe in humanity more and morals.

[Vaskiy]

The caste system followed in India have a big history. It has got advantage and some religion use this as a way to suppress the human beings as they belong to lower caste. The fight against caste system still continues throughout the country. In my state the government have made policies to support the lower caste people and that helps them get uplifted and make their lives better. In specific they were given more consideration in education and job opportunities. In the OP it is questioned about how one could make a life better when he hasn't got access to good schooling, medical needs and so on. In my state the people from lower caste are provided with scholarship making them get into schooling and job reservation with lower cut-off. This way more good things were happening in the upliftment of the people and stand equal to the upper caste people.

[viljy]

The caste system originated in ancient times, and interestingly, this system has survived for centuries and still exists, although it hardly adequately corresponds to the modern political system or modern economy. It turns out that the social structure is determined not only by politics and economics, but also by something else that is present in the memory of the people. This "collective unconsciousness" of the people is so strong that it has not disappeared over the millennia of history. So it is highly doubtful that the caste system will disappear.

[abhiseshakana]

The caste system originated in ancient times, and interestingly, this system has survived for centuries and still exists, although it hardly adequately corresponds to the modern political system or modern economy. It turns out that the social structure is determined not only by politics and economics, but also by something else that is present in the memory of the people. This "collective unconsciousness" of the people is so strong that it has not disappeared over the millennia of history. So it is highly doubtful that the caste system will disappear.

It must be emphasized that I oppose discrimination against certain groups but i asked my Balinese friend,  who member of the Kshatriya caste marrying a member of the Shudra caste and she had to drop down to the lowest caste. From this practice i conclude, there is no way whatsoever for someone to move up in caste. So i asked whether both she and her husband feeling regretful about this caste system ? I got a surprising answer, according to them that the caste system also makes a positive contribution to society even its appear like discrimination, and if given a second chance, they would still want to be part of it.

I think the fact that caste system survived for centuries because it has fuction. My friend said caste system created solid social network, generational occupation specialization, strong mutual aid and smooth intergenerational transfer of skill and knowledge, and i think it is a social capital. Her husband also said that social stratification not always mean discrimination, what he call discrimination when economic status dictate his opportunities regardless of her ability, he and her wife is a dentist.

[Dogedegen]

It must be emphasized that I oppose discrimination against certain groups but i asked my Balinese friend,  who member of the Kshatriya caste marrying a member of the Shudra caste and she had to drop down to the lowest caste. From this practice i conclude, there is no way whatsoever for someone to move up in caste. So i asked whether both she and her husband feeling regretful about this caste system ? I got a surprising answer, according to them that the caste system also makes a positive contribution to society even its appear like discrimination, and if given a second chance, they would still want to be part of it.

I think the fact that caste system survived for centuries because it has fuction. My friend said caste system created solid social network, generational occupation specialization, strong mutual aid and smooth intergenerational transfer of skill and knowledge, and i think it is a social capital. Her husband also said that social stratification not always mean discrimination, what he call discrimination when economic status dictate his opportunities regardless of her ability, he and her wife is a dentist.

That is a good example from personal experience, and if you think about this it is a classic case of western or outside judgement. People who do not know these things and do not have any practical experience about them create judgements that they are only bad based on what they know and how they see the view. If you look at the big cities around the world, you will see that there is almost no social network and the cohesion of society is broken. This is one of the reasons why many people develop mental illnesses or become crazy and obsessed about things like their gender. They are simply lost in the big cities, and people pretend that they have mostly solved discrimination when in fact they can't even establish a social support system because of the forced integration of many incompatible cultures and removing things that based on human history humans do need.

Actually any kind of system does have its drawbacks usually, so even if you go to a system where you have removed the castes that does not mean that its overall balance is now better than with the previous system as I showed some examples for that. Also we should mention that not all caste systems are going to be the same, in some cases they could be just terrible overall but in others like from the people that you have mentioned it may be quite useful and pretty good overall. If you also look in the western world in topics like this, this forced fight against claimed discrimination almost lead to a reinvention of communistic ideas where they wanted to give equal outcomes to people who don't deserve them. That is what can happen when things and ideas are taken to the extremes by unreasonable people.

[Crypto_Timothy]

In brief, Caste system is a social structure where a person's status is assigned at birth and is usually very difficult or impossible to change. While Classism is prejudice, discrimination, or unequal treatment based on a person's social or economic class.

By this definition tho, I would say classism is everywhere in the world but then in certain places like India for instance, the concept of classism has a sub definition which is then the castle system. In my country I see resemblance of the caste system but over here it is either you have money or you don't have money so once you have money, alot of attitudes changes. I think classism that transcends beyond money is the caste system and it is just more open in India than most places.

[aoluain]

In brief, Caste system is a social structure where a person's status is assigned at birth and is usually very difficult or impossible to change. While Classism is prejudice, discrimination, or unequal treatment based on a person's social or economic class.

I cant believe in this world in the 21st century that caste systems are still in place. IMO they
are designed to keep the powerless ^majority poor and the privileged ^minority wealthy.
Those systems were designed by people in power to keep themselves and their families there.
I would love to see the majority rise up and revolt against that system and change it so everyone
gets a fair chance.

I suppose im lucky that in my country everyone has the possibility to be as good as anyone else,
we dont have a caste system.

[abhiseshakana]

In brief, Caste system is a social structure where a person's status is assigned at birth and is usually very difficult or impossible to change. While Classism is prejudice, discrimination, or unequal treatment based on a person's social or economic class.

I cant believe in this world in the 21st century that caste systems are still in place. IMO they
are designed to keep the powerless ^majority poor and the privileged ^minority wealthy.
Those systems were designed by people in power to keep themselves and their families there.
I would love to see the majority rise up and revolt against that system and change it so everyone
gets a fair chance.

I suppose im lucky that in my country everyone has the possibility to be as good as anyone else,
we dont have a caste system.

I want to emphasize that I oppose discrimination before writing my point of view. I dont know exactly popular caste system and practice in others country, my reference only caste system in Bali island, but i think caste system more like status sosial/ritual or in modern world we say social roles, it is different from economic class discrimination. Modern society separate function, profession, status, and wealth, in traditional society some of those aspects can be more closely linked.

Higest caste of Brahmins has traditional function associate for knowledge, education, religion or we can say in modern world such as teachers, academics, scientists, religious leaders/clerics, intellectuals. Highest caste doesn't mean high economic status. Kshatriyas function as leadership, governance, defense with closest modern functional equivalent Government, public officials, the military, the police, leaders. The third caste is Vaishyas which dunction is trade, agriculture, production representing by entrepreneurs, traders, farmers, investors, business owners. The last cate are shudra or caste with function as service and productive work associate with workers, technicians, laborers, service workers, various  profession in modern world

So we should be careful not to equate caste with economic class which brutally discriminatory nowdays. Modernization does not mean loosing every traditional social identity, in modern world we promote decoupling cultural identity from inequallity  in right and economic opportunity. Every individual regardless of the family one is born into, has same opportunity to build thir own life. Birth  doesn't determine the extent of individual opportunity in economy, education, public service and law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste