Arizonans crypto refund

[DaveF]

1) Go to AZ
2) Put USD into a BTAM
3) Get BTC
4) Claim fraud
5) File report
6) Profit $
7) Go to step 2

-Dave

[Obari]

The attorney have done a great job and is already doing a great job but I'm still curious to know how all of the process is been determined and I think the system might be milked if care is not taken and that's why I'm curious to know how they get to refund money scammed through crypto or do they have to pay off the amount from government account or they have to track the transactions and recover them

Only scammers demand payment in cryptocurrency. No legitimate business or government agency will ever ask you to pay or "protect your money" using bitcoin.

While reading through the link, I came across this and it caught my attention which I think it was wrong for them to say this because there are legit businesses that would possibly want to receive their payment in bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies and saying such might make transaction with legit business that accept payment in crypto difficult.

1) Go to AZ
2) Put USD into a BTAM
3) Get BTC
4) Claim fraud
5) File report
6) Profit $
7) Go to step 2

-Dave

These was exactly was I was talking about when I said the system might get milked but since I don't know how it really worked and since the post don't clearly say how the process works, I didn't just have to spill it out.

[CryptoBuds]

1) Go to AZ
2) Put USD into a BTAM
3) Get BTC
4) Claim fraud
5) File report
6) Profit $
7) Go to step 2

If those operator take financial liability for every transaction in which it had no negligence or involvement then their compliance cost will increase. And most operator will be forced to withdraw from Arizona market. Other hand ATM operator are not completely neutral. Their law give them responsibility of disclosur, receipt, warning, transaction limit and fraud detection measure. Main point to be considered here is how much consumer protection should be. So that victim are protected but moral hazard or incentive for fake claim is not created.

[Oshosondy]

1) Go to AZ
2) Put USD into a BTAM
3) Get BTC
4) Claim fraud
5) File report
6) Profit $
7) Go to step 2

-Dave

I have been reading what people are posting on this thread. It is true that this can make the crypto ATM operators lose money and that will only still mean ban on the ATMs if the operators are not making profits as they are using the profits to pay people that are scammed.

But I think the operators can provide guidance for their customers not to get scammed.

Like someone want to use it but the person is warned that it is a scam. This can help the operators not to pay the victim the money scammed.

[tabas]

https://www.azag.gov/press-release/attorney-general-mayes-helps-nearly-three-dozen-crypto-atm-scam-victims-recover-full

While the attorney general is only doing her job to help the scam victims. I've read this link and this got me thinking of what AG Mayes tells about Bitcoin/crypto generally which I think needs to be modified but I agree on the latter part that it's not for protection of money(pretty much as a hedge(protection) against inflation(?) and taking the meaning of it literally. Because this is what it says;

Only scammers demand payment in cryptocurrency. No legitimate business or government agency will ever ask you to pay or "protect your money" using bitcoin.

It's actually bolded in the website. I guess that she knows better than this because a lot of genuine businesses and merchants are now accepting Bitcoin and other altcoins. And for the government agency, I know that it's only specific on Arizona but there are government agencies in other states of the USA that's being said accepts crypto as payment for taxes. Like in the state of Colorado: Crypto Currency Now Accepted For All State Tax Payments

[Hazink]

All that the government may need to do is to ensure that they hold the bitcoin ATM service operators accountable for this refund, even though not all the affected victims will come forward to report their scenario, I also don't know if the attorney general will maintain the commitment to ensure that every reported case is got every last penny of their Bitcoin being refunded, but I know that issues like this are not as easy as we may thought to completely achieve the goal.

Unless there are some pieces missing in the link shared. If not, I really don't see why this crypto ATM company should be held accountable for repaying scam victims all the money they were scammed. If it was some sort of insider job, it could have been understandable, but if they are to look into it properly it will be seen that majority of the people who are scammed their scammers are from a totally different country without having any connection to the ATM owners, the best the court could have done is pass law for them to short down the crypto ATMs instead of making them pay from their pocket to victims unless they have also failed to follow up due guidelines on their operations which could have helped prevent scammed victims from being scammed.

[Z-tight]

KYC is going to solve this issue.

No it wouldn't. Take note that BTC atm's comply with kyc/aml laws, so they indeed require kyc, especially for amounts greater than $1k. However, kyc is useless in preventing BTC atm scams because it is the victims that make the tx at the machine, so it is they who submit their kyc information and not the scammers.

Unless if the law is also going to mandate those Bitcoin ATM to start staking deposit and holding for that specific date if no complaints from sender before sending the Bitcoin t the end receiver,

That's a terrible suggestion, lol. It is as good as just saying BTC atm's in Arizona should all leave to other jurisdictions and that's indeed a better suggestion, which i support. Because who would be willing to wait ~30 days to receive their BTC purchased from an atm? Surely nobody, when there are better and cheaper alternatives to buy BTC.

[tread93]

Somebody got scammed for their own mistake and the one taking responsibility is the company who had nothing to do with it.

Am I missing something? it's normal for the company to be forced to issue a refund if the cryptocurrency kiosk and ATM operators are the one doing the fraud but most of the time it's someone from random country doing the scam through pig butchering method and not the company.

I think there is better way than misplacing criminal responsibility from the actual scammer to someone else like this.

Well, if you’re familiar with the crypto atm industry operators are very certain of whom their clients are and how they come across their transaction volume and they basically depend on the shady folks to bring them their margin. Any smart US citizen would just buy crypto using any other online platform. These machines have made it very easy for fraudsters to scam (mostly older folks and dumb kids) a certain demographic/s of people. The Crypto ATM industry was in the wild Wild West phase from like 2016-2024 and then shit hit the fans for them when the police and regulators OFAC probably the FBI and a bunch of other government orgs all came together and started cracking down on this.

[TastyChillySauce00]

1) Go to AZ
2) Put USD into a BTAM
3) Get BTC
4) Claim fraud
5) File report
6) Profit $
7) Go to step 2

-Dave

These was exactly was I was talking about when I said the system might get milked but since I don't know how it really worked and since the post don't clearly say how the process works, I didn't just have to spill it out.

The law only apply to newly registered customer who registered in less than 10 days and did a clear reporting process within 30 days, and you're going to need official report from law enforcement. I doubt it can be exploited and filing false report is a crime on its own. Even a repeated abuse isn't really possible because your first report easily make you ineligible after 10 days has passed from when you registered as a customer. If you look closely, it isn't really unlimited money loophole, the law actually still make sense at least.

[Charles-Tim]

It's actually bolded in the website. I guess that she knows better than this because a lot of genuine businesses and merchants are now accepting Bitcoin and other altcoins. And for the government agency, I know that it's only specific on Arizona but there are government agencies in other states of the USA that's being said accepts crypto as payment for taxes. Like in the state of Colorado: Crypto Currency Now Accepted For All State Tax Payments

If the victim does not know how to pay in bitcoin or crypto using the ATM, the scammers always have alternatives which they will request their victims to use to pay them. The simplest one that I know are the gift cards, but they are more than that. There behave also been means that the scammers use MoneyGram and others to receive money from victims in a way they can not be traced. Just that crypto is one of the easiest way now, but the scammers still have other means.

[sokani]

I have been reading what people are posting on this thread. It is true that this can make the crypto ATM operators lose money and that will only still mean ban on the ATMs if the operators are not making profits as they are using the profits to pay people that are scammed.

But I think the operators can provide guidance for their customers not to get scammed.

Like someone want to use it but the person is warned that it is a scam. This can help the operators not to pay the victim the money scammed.

Some of the victims can be adamant even after reading the warnings, especially those that think they are in a relationship with a distant lover. They are too blinded to see the truth even when it's laid out for them. I have seen multiple videos like that on scambaiter channels on YouTube.

So, even if the operators paste warnings about the different methods of crypto ATM scams on these machines, it will have little effect in preventing scams, and they will still be the ones suffering the losses. It will be better to leave Arizona to somewhere else.

[stompix]

1) Go to AZ
2) Put USD into a BTAM
3) Get BTC
4) Claim fraud
5) File report
6) Profit $
7) Go to step 2

-Dave

Every 2 turns, Step 8 appears when you roll the dice, and if it's not 6, you go to prison for fraud.
Also, might be a surprise to some but this is the law for banks in Europe:

https://www.fca.org.uk/consumers/fraudulent-payments
https://www.psr.org.uk/information-for-consumers/app-fraud-reimbursement-protections/

The refund is based on the insurance cover from the ATM company and not from the receiver of the bitcoin, this will strengthen bitcoin ATM operations to make sure that every customer is actually truly verified and traceable because if the transaction is reported they will be the one to make refund to the victims since bitcoin transactions remain irreversible when made.

You obviously have no clue how these scams happened, why don't you try understanding things before typing?

If the victim does not know how to pay in bitcoin or crypto using the ATM, the scammers always have alternatives which they will request their victims to use to pay them. The simplest one that I know are the gift cards, but they are more than that.

Yeah, cause purchasing 500x$100 Amazon gift cards to pay an IRS fine will definitely trick just as many people into doing it.

There behave also been means that the scammers use MoneyGram and others to receive money from victims in a way they can not be traced.

- To whom are you sending money Grandma?
- I need to pay the bill for my new boyfriend Brad Pitt, with whom I have spent months conversing, make this payment in his name to Kuajau Majungo in Malawi!
- Sure.......

[Z-tight]

So, even if the operators paste warnings about the different methods of crypto ATM scams on these machines, it will have little effect in preventing scams, and they will still be the ones suffering the losses. It will be better to leave Arizona to somewhere else.

It indeed has not helped the gullible victims, because under this law, the atm operators are mandated to display on-screen warnings to their customers. In other words, before you can buy crypto in one of the kiosks in Arizona, you must accept that you understand the risks of sending crypto via an atm, which would be displayed on the screen for the customer to read and acknowledge, before proceeding.

This is all part of measures put in place to protect customers, in addition to available customer support at every time of the day.

[Cookdata]

If those operator take financial liability for every transaction in which it had no negligence or involvement then their compliance cost will increase. And most operator will be forced to withdraw from Arizona market. Other hand ATM operator are not completely neutral. Their law give them responsibility of disclosur, receipt, warning, transaction limit and fraud detection measure. Main point to be considered here is how much consumer protection should be. So that victim are protected but moral hazard or incentive for fake claim is not created.

If you look at that law carefully, the aim is not to protect users in the long run, the agenda is to kill every crypto ATM in the state. Common sense should tell us this is not about users, it's like a government campaign to stop crypto ATM. I have never for once see banks refund people when they send money to a scammer and the scammer flew away with their money. It doesn't make sense and will never make any sense, the Attorney is a lose mad man.

You can't tell me this is a regular consumer protection, I have not seen this done anywhere neither have I seen it done in any fiscal policy, they want to kill crypto ATM, they want to discouraged adoption. I think it will make sense if crypto ATM operators give it a rest, anyone can play the victim games with this and cashout, the money you will lose will be more than the amount used to buy the ATM.

[Livingleged]

Somebody got scammed for their own mistake and the one taking responsibility is the company who had nothing to do with it.

Am I missing something? it's normal for the company to be forced to issue a refund if the cryptocurrency kiosk and ATM operators are the one doing the fraud but most of the time it's someone from random country doing the scam through pig butchering method and not the company.

I think there is better way than misplacing criminal responsibility from the actual scammer to someone else like this.

Exactly my opinion too, most of the victims where convinced to go and deposit fait for crypto to the wallet given to them by the scammers or criminals, and now they blame the companies providing the ATMs for their own ignorance or mistakes. I also feel asking companies to refund victims of scam that the fault was from individuals negligence is not right and I will not want to support that. Even without those ATM those victims will be scam. I read reports that most of the victims said it was a romance manipulation scam. Not a technical glitch, fault or compromise.

[tabas]

It's actually bolded in the website. I guess that she knows better than this because a lot of genuine businesses and merchants are now accepting Bitcoin and other altcoins. And for the government agency, I know that it's only specific on Arizona but there are government agencies in other states of the USA that's being said accepts crypto as payment for taxes. Like in the state of Colorado: Crypto Currency Now Accepted For All State Tax Payments

If the victim does not know how to pay in bitcoin or crypto using the ATM, the scammers always have alternatives which they will request their victims to use to pay them. The simplest one that I know are the gift cards, but they are more than that. There behave also been means that the scammers use MoneyGram and others to receive money from victims in a way they can not be traced. Just that crypto is one of the easiest way now, but the scammers still have other means.

I agree, they'll still have other means to scam people. But that's just out of hand IMO coming from an attorney general generally saying that if someone uses crypto, they're all scams. There are exceptions to that and I think that her or her team needs to research more about it. Because there are a lot of real businesses that accept bitcoin for payments or crypto to be specific. Otherwise, I don't know if it's only specific to Arizona then that's it, and if there really are no businesses there that accepts it and only applies to that state.

[stompix]

If you look at that law carefully, the aim is not to protect users in the long run, the agenda is to kill every crypto ATM in the state. Common sense should tell us this is not about users, it's like a government campaign to stop crypto ATM.

Oh yeah, the big government wants to kill crypto ATMs...
When was the last time you sued one?

I have never for once see banks refund people when they send money to a scammer and the scammer flew away with their money. It doesn't make sense and will never make any sense, the Attorney is a lose mad man.

Maybe because you don't read the topic at all?
https://www.psr.org.uk/information-for-consumers/app-fraud-reimbursement-protections/

Authorised Push Payment (APP) fraud is a devastating crime. It happens when you’re tricked into sending money to a fraudster via bank transfer. We have taken action to make reimbursement mandatory and ensure you receive consistent levels of protection if you fall victim to this type of fraud. All types of APP fraud are covered by the new measures, which might include impersonation or romance scams, for example.
The maximum amount of money people can claim is £85,000 which will cover over 99% of claims. Individual firms may choose to reimburse more than £85,000. Where more than £85,000 is lost and not reimbursed, you can raise your case with the Financial Ombudsman Service, which has a compensation limit of £430,000.

You can't tell me this is a regular consumer protection, I have not seen this done anywhere neither have I seen it done in any fiscal policy, they want to kill crypto ATM, they want to discouraged adoption.

Yeah right, we have like 100 topics here on Bitcointalk about BATM and everyone is saying he's not paying 7.5%-1 5% fees on buying coins from those when it can do it for 5% on an exchange. So, asking you again to remove your tinfoil had an do tell me when was the last time you bought coins from an BATM!