Can Provably Fair games still be rigged?

[Ziskinberg]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

[Iranus]

Yes, it would not be correct to say that provably fair automatically tells that everything is inherently honest in a casino.

Very interesting point is, if any casino commits its server seed after understanding their client seed then they could select a seed that leads to a specific outcome. However in a proper commit-reveal design, the hash of the server seed is committed beforehand. And the client seed remains outside the casino's control.

Before making a thread, you should check if someone else has already made a similar post.

This is a similar discussion: Is provably fair really real? , but it is locked, so you can't post there.

[Ziskinberg]

This is a similar discussion: Is provably fair really real? , but it is locked.

Thanks.. i have read the thread, and this is the post..

the problem I have with provably fair is we can't ever know how true it is, even a casino that can't be trusted will use the same language that they are transparent to enhance players confidence in them, there is no probably fair verification, the cryptographic algorithm and others aren't enough.

What I understand from his post is that he probably just trusts the words “provably fair” or whatever the casino is advertising. What I mean here is a little different because Im talking about games that are actually provably fair and can be verified.

What I want to discuss is whether being verifiable is already enough for us to trust that the casino is really giving us a fair game. I have read before that even with a provably fair system, there can still be ways for a casino to manipulate things.

So this does not have to be just a general discussion about trusting casinos. We can make it more technical, like what exactly should we check or audit in a provably fair system before we can really say that the fairness is real.

[Oshosondy]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

Do not let us be deceiving ourselves, the gambling sites are using the house edge to take advantage of gamblers, but it is not manipulation because the gamblers know about it. If you can check a game seed, it means no manipulation if there is no manipulation after you check the seed and see no manipulation.

A gambling site is always profitable if they have customers.

[Royal Cap]

Yes I would say it is possible, but the real issue here is what exactly provably fair is proving. If the hash of the server seed is given first, it can be detected whether the seed has been changed later, and the same result can be calculated again using the client seed and nonce but the whole game is not fair just because the hash matches. If the formula or payout logic of the game is set differently, then even if the result is verified correctly, the game may not be fair in your favor.

Hopefully after reading this article, all your misconceptions will be cleared : How to Verify a Provably Fair Bet Step by Step

[Ashawowo(OS)]

We can make it more technical, like what exactly should we check or audit in a provably fair system before we can really say that the fairness is real.

On a quick search for third-party verification of probably fair games, I saw this site that allows you verify independently some games
https://100rtp.games/tools/provably-fair-checker/ It surely makes sense to be able to verify it outside the casino. I would've loved to be able to calculate it myself to be very sure, but sadly I'm no crypto developer. I'm not eliminating the fact that casinos are cheating on their probably fair promise, neither am I saying they do, I don't really trust them so much.

[Wiwo]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

The probability of gamblers to get fairness in games settlement is very limited, because casinos are operated as revenues generating business.

What most likely to be gotten is high probability where it almost impossible to get rigged then luck only then a player can get the probably fair play.

Just know that house edge is there to make you be at disadvantage to the casino that is how they make their money.

[WhoYouCantKill]

When we say that a game is probably fair, what is meant is that the outcome of that particular game was generated from the committed inputs and was not actually altered afterwards, but does that automatically prove that the entire game or the subsequent input’s implementation is or will be honest? Definitely not. There could still be subsequent manipulations in the payout logics, probability mappings, and several other areas in or outside of the seed generation process. So probably fair doesn’t automatically mean a game cannot be rigged.

[leea-1334]

Well, if it cannot be proven fair then it is not provably fair, now is it?

I think one needs to understand what it means to have a game that is provably fair. By definition if you cannot on your own prove the outcome of your bet is fair then the game is not PF.

Maybe you come up with an example of a PF game that is still manipulated?

[swogerino]

When we say that a game is probably fair, what is meant is that the outcome of that particular game was generated from the committed inputs and was not actually altered afterwards, but does that automatically prove that the entire game or the subsequent input’s implementation is or will be honest? Definitely not. There could still be subsequent manipulations in the payout logics, probability mappings, and several other areas in or outside of the seed generation process. So probably fair doesn’t automatically mean a game cannot be rigged.

There are absolutely lots of other mechanisms put in place that a game can be manipulated despite saying it is provably fair. The RTP of the game can be altered and this is a well known thing that most providers of slot machines offer the casinos, they advertise for example 96% RTP when in fact the inner mechanisms allows the casino to operate it at 84% RTP and there is no way of us the players to verify that. A prime example of this is Play n Go which claim they offer three levels of RTP to their games.

[YellowSwap]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

If casinos provably fair are real provably fair I'm sure that most of them would have close down their businesses because real provably fair means that they are at the same risk as gamblers.

It's going to look like 50/50 chances type of business and this won't be a nice thing, so the house always wins no matter what for their business to keep flourishing, sadly this is the case.

It's why I'm always shocked when people go all lent for gambling while they have this understanding about what gambling truly is, you can't always have your way in the world and it's like times three of that in gambling.

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

According to my findings from GitHub, if a provably-fair system is implemented correctly, it's impossible to do some kind of manipulation, meaning that it's also possible to do some kind of manipulation in different phase of the system. Based on how I understand this provably-fair system, we have the seed commitment phase, RNG calculation, RTP, settlement, and mapping of game. So, the casinos can still manipulate something if they want to, especially if it's not a reputable casino, they can manipulate.

[Betwrong]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

Provably Fair games can be rigged. For example, you are not creating your seed each time and the site provides you with their invention, which they supposed to not know, but they do since they are providing it, and they manipulate both seeds to obtain the outcome they want. BUT, you can always make your own seed, which they won't see until the game is played, and even if you don't do that, the site, if it's an honest site, isn't trying to exploit that and provide a client seed that is random and thus the overall game is not rigged.

[Hatchy]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.
I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

The word fair is often used by casinos to build trust with players. It doesn't necessarily mean the games were designed to give players a fair chance of winning. Not being manipulated is different from being fair. Casinos can design games in a way that allows players to verify that the results were not manipulated while still giving the casino a built i house edge. Provably fai does not mean you have a 50/50 chance of winning. The game can be verifiably random while the odds still favor the casino. Many casinos today use terms like nonkYC and provably fair to attract players and make them feel more comfortable.  these terms alone don't prove that a casino is trustworthy. After all casinos are businesses nd their business model depends on having an advantage over players in the long run.

[Filicius]

I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

How long will we have to wait to see what you told you read? Perhaps if we read it we could give our opinion on the subject, it is probably information that not all of us know and on which it would be good to reflect.

As I understand it, it could both be named "provably fair" or "provably unfair". I mean that what is really significant is that it can be proven, in the best cases, but that it can be proven does not automatically make it fair.

[danherbias07]

There are a lot of yeses from different forum members, and I will answer the same. Yes.

I think it can still be rigged. In fact, they may already be rigged before it comes out and becomes a live game. Let's face it, there's really no proof about provably fair games, and honestly, after playing so many games, I don't believe in provably fair anymore. RNG may be real, but when a gambler starts winning, the RNG is gone, and most of the time a losing streak happens even if you choose what is promised to have a good percentage of fairness.

[TheUltraElite]

Client seeds remain outside control of the casino, so in all likely chance, the games are provably fair and not being rigged, however this does not mean that they can never be rigged. With more and more casinos coming up everyday the people who are silently verifying the games and calling out any bad actors to make sure only the legitimate casinos survive need to applauded.

This math is the closest we can get to getting a fair game.

Still if one does not feel comfortable playing on a specific site, they should move away from it and not play with suspicion on their mind.

[Charles-Tim]

Client seeds remain outside control of the casino, so in all likely chance, the games are provably fair and not being rigged, however this does not mean that they can never be rigged. With more and more casinos coming up everyday the people who are silently verifying the games and calling out any bad actors to make sure only the legitimate casinos survive need to applauded.

Yes, it can be rigged if the seed is not checked. But what about the traditional gambling sites? According to my findings in the past, they do not operate the casinos in a way they have any seed to know if the game is rigged or not.

Even without the game being rigged, almost all gamblers are losing. Why is the need to rig the games when the gambling sites already know that people will also lose.

[ashmodeus]

Let me tell all based what i knew , provably fair its can be says fair if that have 3 things.
Server seed which it hashed at the beginning , client seed and nonce. Basically many casino on their provably fair game automaticaly generates a client seed for user or player , if a player never changes their client seed it will rely entirely on whatever seed the platform's system pre-associated with them , since we cant choose the server seed stick to the same client seed for me is the solution, since we will never have the same served seed as we rotate it.
So , based on that fact, i have theory how they change the output which it locked (hashed) since beginning ?
Let me make example on stake original , if clientseed "Abc" with serverseed hashed "xyz" at nonce 889 has been pre-determined to win 10kx plinko ball at plinko game,  but unfortuniely u on that nonce play different stake original game , since u probably got rekt before on plinko before that nonce , and as the nonce of big hit u move to another game for recover ur balance , as u got the balance back , u comeback to plinko , at by u comeback u already at nonce 1010 , u definely will rekt again since after u rotate and see the all result,because u feel titled, u already miss a chance and the next 10k x plinko will come again at nonce 8988.
And , its litterally has scripted before u even play since nonce 1. Why i told like this , because that happen to me in the past.

[Russlenat]

Even without the game being rigged, almost all gamblers are losing. Why is the need to rig the games when the gambling sites already know that people will also lose.

If its clean, we still lose but mostly in the long run, because the house edge does not guarantee that the casino will win all the time. It only gives them the advantage over many bets. Imagine one player making a huge bet and winning, the casino could still end up having a losing day. Maybe some casinos become greedy and dont want that to happen, so they might try to manipulate the game. Its quite technical, but I believe this can happen, and thats why playing in a reputable casino should always be the first priority.

Also, every casino offering provably fair games should explain clearly how their system works, just like Stake does here: Stake Provably Fair Implementation. That way players can actually check how the result is generated and verified instead of just trusting the words "provably fair."