Can Provably Fair games still be rigged?

[Ishicryptic]

On a quick search for third-party verification of probably fair games, I saw this site that allows you verify independently some games
https://100rtp.games/tools/provably-fair-checker/ It surely makes sense to be able to verify it outside the casino. I would've loved to be able to calculate it myself to be very sure, but sadly I'm no crypto developer. I'm not eliminating the fact that casinos are cheating on their probably fair promise, neither am I saying they do, I don't really trust them so much.

In cases like this you have to pick a side to represent what you think. The fact that you don’t trust the casinos means you are in support that they are cheating their customers. Well you are not alone, because I don’t trust the casinos either, there is an element of cheating in their operations. The owner of a business always have an edge over their customers by profiting off them in whatever manner. They won’t make it very obvious for the customers to understand, but deep down they know where they are milking from you, that’s exactly what the casinos doe.

House edge in casinos are understandable because if majority of gamblers always wins big the casinos would shutdown but for the protection of the gamblers so that the casinos don't overexploit them is the reason for provably fair, some of us would suspect that some casinos would tamper with the provably fair to make more profits from gamblers through unfair loses. The question is how many gamblers actually have the time and knowledge to investigate whether the casino that they're gambling on is compliant with provably fair standards, I guess the answer is no for most gamblers. If you don't have the time and worry to DYOR about provably fair in a casino then you should make preference of gambling on reputable casinos because their chances of scamming their customers should be very low compared to casinos that are still building trust.

[Oshosondy]

We know about the house edge but I think it is a different thing the OP is saying. Are you of the opinion that apart from the house edge that provably fair games cannot be manipulated? If the answer is a yes, then the OP have to refer to the document he read that says otherwise. I also do not want to believe that provably fair games can be manipulated for the sake of my sanity because if I have the mindset that they are manipulated as well, I may not have the confidence to play the games.

I am not saying it can not be manipulated, it can. But what I am implying is that without the manipulations, gamblers are still losing. The probability that a gambler will lose while gambling is far more than the probability that the gambler will make some profits instead. That was what I meant there.

If you think a game is rigged, just check the seed. That is the reason the seed is existing to be checked for any manipulation.

[adultcrypto]

We know about the house edge but I think it is a different thing the OP is saying. Are you of the opinion that apart from the house edge that provably fair games cannot be manipulated? If the answer is a yes, then the OP have to refer to the document he read that says otherwise. I also do not want to believe that provably fair games can be manipulated for the sake of my sanity because if I have the mindset that they are manipulated as well, I may not have the confidence to play the games.

I am not saying it can not be manipulated, it can. But what I am implying is that without the manipulations, gamblers are still losing. The probability that a gambler will lose while gambling is far more than the probability that the gambler will make some profits instead. That was what I meant there.

If you think a game is rigged, just check the seed. That is the reason the seed is existing to be checked for any manipulation.

Now your position is clearer than it was in your first comment. The reason players lose even in a probably fair game is the house edge and that is acceptable to the players. What people are mainly concerned about is saying one thing while doing another, in this case, calling a rigged game probably fair. You reference the seed as the final bus stop but there are comments from people suggesting that even when the seed is verified that the games can still be manipulated. This is what no one has added convincing explanation to.

[Cyber_warrior]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

For sure even a openly fair game can be rigged, it might seems fair to some people who do not know the rules and regulations of the game or people that the rigging is in favor of. Some games might be openly and physically fair but hiddenly being rigged. Most rigged and biased games are not usually shown publicly and intentionally but will be rigged in one way or the other. It will not be possible for a game to be rigged openly without objection from the opposition side that are being cheated. So most unfair, rigged games are being done hiddenly so as not to raise any suspicion.

[L E G E N D A R Y]

That's the reality quite alright because that's not a guarantee of true randomness assigned to any user.
It's better to rely and use open source or third party verification scripts to be safe when gambling on probably fair games just to be safe than sorry, because no matter how secure or trusted the verification widgets of any of these games appear, there's always that chance of the game being rigged.

Yeah, I like the idea of an independent verification as this is a better way to really verify the game. An open source verifier is a great way to do that, as it gives the user the ability to reproduce or inspect the calculations themselves and not just to rely solely and accepting the claims of the casino alone, as these can be quite misleading sometimes.

[Dave1]

There are a lot of yeses from different forum members, and I will answer the same. Yes.

I think it can still be rigged. In fact, they may already be rigged before it comes out and becomes a live game. Let's face it, there's really no proof about provably fair games, and honestly, after playing so many games, I don't believe in provably fair anymore. RNG may be real, but when a gambler starts winning, the RNG is gone, and most of the time a losing streak happens even if you choose what is promised to have a good percentage of fairness.

And that is why it's not random per se, as in the long run, the house is going to win because they have the edge. And so it doesn't meant that casinos are provably fair = fair odds.

Another is that the code of the games is proprietary of the operators, so we really don't know what's inside. Maybe they can manipulate that outcomes have reduced payouts. So even if we check the Server Seed + Client Seed + Nonce and think that it's provably fair, there could be possibility that they can manipulate the payouts in their favor. i.e. not paying the whole winning.

[Somegory]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

With house edge advantage I don't think that we can have that provably fair that we really want, it's something most gamblers will only understand if they start to run their own casinos.

The provably fair that we got is that type that makes sure you win once in a while and lose most of the time and I get it,  this is the only way that we can keep buying that shovel of hopes from casinos.

It's also the only way that online casinos can stay in business for as long as possible, if they are fair like we want we won't have any online casinos left to come back and try our lucks again.

[Ojima-ojo]

That's the reality quite alright because that's not a guarantee of true randomness assigned to any user.
It's better to rely and use open source or third party verification scripts to be safe when gambling on probably fair games just to be safe than sorry, because no matter how secure or trusted the verification widgets of any of these games appear, there's always that chance of the game being rigged.

Yeah, I like the idea of an independent verification as this is a better way to really verify the game. An open source verifier is a great way to do that, as it gives the user the ability to reproduce or inspect the calculations themselves and not just to rely solely and accepting the claims of the casino alone, as these can be quite misleading sometimes.

Independent verifier is the only approach to fair verification of game's, most of the time some casino that say's they have probably fair games just choose that as just a way of making players trust their games outcomes.


But on a more intense note, they don't have or allow the independent verification process rather may chose their own build verification system, but we should give the some credit at least the few that practices the probability fairness system with games Hex that could be independently verified without the casino involvements.

[Agathamay]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

Do not let us be deceiving ourselves, the gambling sites are using the house edge to take advantage of gamblers, but it is not manipulation because the gamblers know about it. If you can check a game seed, it means no manipulation if there is no manipulation after you check the seed and see no manipulation.

A gambling site is always profitable if they have customers.

People miss out from the house edge part where no matter what, the house is always supposed to win at the end and there have been times when I had to doubt the provably fair and it’s cryptographic algorithms but then I remembered the principle of house edge which gives the house edge over you the more you play and that is why it is always advisable to know when to quiet and when to continue playing.

[EluguHcman]

The house edge always win whether it's provably fair or not. You cannot beat the house hedge which is one of the reasons why I see provably fair as a marketing strategy even though, you confirm it from the seed. Just gamble for fun in a reputable casino and forget about any worries.

Unfortunately the inability of players trying to understand if the casino is provably fair is the main reason why you can not beat the house edge.
Even if all ran for number of seeds is confirmed down to the server seed, the casino will always have an edge to beat you over a long term.

Meanwhile... All provably fair seeds could just be to convince players as a marketing strategy proving an fair reputation that should make you trust they are not biased in their random outcome generations.
It is really like a journey with no end if we must lean our curiosity on the provably fair casinos while the best advice to every beginners is to just play with funds you can afford to loose and keep in mind to have fun alongside.

[gracreavix]

We have to understand that a game can be fair mathematically and still have an house edge. Doesn't mean that it is already manipulated. In as much you can verity the result, the house has a certain edge. Even at that, the veirfication doesn't really verify everything. As regard the manipulation, i don't know whether it is possible. If it is, I will love to know too.

[Alex077]

We know about the house edge but I think it is a different thing the OP is saying. Are you of the opinion that apart from the house edge that provably fair games cannot be manipulated? If the answer is a yes, then the OP have to refer to the document he read that says otherwise...

I am not saying it can not be manipulated, it can. But what I am implying is that without the manipulations, gamblers are still losing. The probability that a gambler will lose while gambling is far more than the probability that the gambler will make some profits instead. That was what I meant there.
If you think a game is rigged, just check the seed. That is the reason the seed is existing to be checked for any manipulation.

Yes, I agree with you on this. A casino doesn’t need to manipulate the results to make money in the long run. Anyway the house edge already gives it a built-in mathematical advantage.

But when it comes to checking the seed, I’d add one important point. Checking the seed and the hash allows you to make sure that a particular result wasn’t changed after the bet was placed. That’s actually one of the main purposes of provably fair. However, this check alone doesn’t always prove that the entire system is implemented fairly. But in a normal, honest casino, there’s really no need for it anyway - the house edge already gives the casino an advantage in the long run.

[Dunamisx]

Anything is possible because those that set your system in place can also decided to adjust it to be able to suit their own personal purpose or interest, careful anything is possible in it complain or any game we play in it, while I will also advise every Gambler not to always concentrate their attention on this because it may be discouraging, even though they may not be any proof to ascertain whether such is taken place or not in some conditions.

[Porfirii]

We know about the house edge but I think it is a different thing the OP is saying. Are you of the opinion that apart from the house edge that provably fair games cannot be manipulated? If the answer is a yes, then the OP have to refer to the document he read that says otherwise. I also do not want to believe that provably fair games can be manipulated for the sake of my sanity because if I have the mindset that they are manipulated as well, I may not have the confidence to play the games.

I am not saying it can not be manipulated, it can. But what I am implying is that without the manipulations, gamblers are still losing. The probability that a gambler will lose while gambling is far more than the probability that the gambler will make some profits instead. That was what I meant there.

If you think a game is rigged, just check the seed. That is the reason the seed is existing to be checked for any manipulation.

Now your position is clearer than it was in your first comment. The reason players lose even in a probably fair game is the house edge and that is acceptable to the players. What people are mainly concerned about is saying one thing while doing another, in this case, calling a rigged game probably fair. You reference the seed as the final bus stop but there are comments from people suggesting that even when the seed is verified that the games can still be manipulated. This is what no one has added convincing explanation to.

I don't think most of us are capable of assessing whether certain games and/or gambling platforms are provably fair, and we have to trust that other users with greater capacity and motivation do it. That's at least my feeling around provably fairness. And since I know that this will only happen with the best known casinos, when in doubt I choose those with a longer trajectory or better reputation.

IMO, none of us can know everything, and we have to know how to deal with uncertainty, make decisions even when information is lacking, and that's how I handle my ignorance to, for example, check a seed and know what it is supposed to mean.

[TheUltraElite]

We have to understand that a game can be fair mathematically and still have an house edge. Doesn't mean that it is already manipulated. In as much you can verity the result, the house has a certain edge. Even at that, the veirfication doesn't really verify everything. As regard the manipulation, i don't know whether it is possible. If it is, I will love to know too.

House edge and fairness are two different things. A game may have a huge house edge and still be fair and thus appear apparently rigged because the player would never seem to win any games. Being provably fair means you can use any independant site to verify the outcome of each and every bet by revealing the current server seed and the nonce with your client seed.

If any independent site is unable to verify the bet through this manner, then the site is not being fair, you have to avoid that site.

Freebitco.in for example had a dice game that was having a HE is close to 5% and hence the site made a lot of money but its results could be verified on sites like https://dicesites.com/

[Agbe]

Not because a game is provably fair and the seed can be verified means it is already completely free from manipulation.

I was reading about this and I was surprised that manipulation can still be possible even when the seed and hash check out. I won't put here what I read for now because I want to see what you guys know about it. Do you think a provably fair game can still be manipulated even if everything looks valid when you verify it?

The rigging is not from the seed or the hash or the statement fairness. The rigging comes from the game (house edge). If there is no rigging, they won't make profit and the probably fair will have the highest win and the casino will be at the losing side. There is always manipulation in all the games. Even the no KYC statement is not 100% yes. There is a kind of KYC therefore probably fair is just a mere statement in the public but in behind there is something going on.

[Dr.Bitcoin_Strange]

Even a platform that already have this being manipulated will still come out be clear that they operate a provably fair game, this does not also stand as a reason why we must always detest over any gambling casino when we come across are not to be trusted in this manner, in order for us to enjoy gambling, you should not set our mind on this than focusing on how to gamble and be well entertained.

If the game is really provably fair, using the provided seed, you should be able to verify that the outcome was not manipulated, however not all manipulation can be noticed and some players don't even care about confirming whether a game is provably fair or not. A player will not set their mind there only if they are playing in a reputable casino where they feel safe that they casino can not manipulate the outcome of their games, but if you are playing in a new casino that you have not used before and then the outcome of your bet is so poor, you can question whether the game was fair or not. If am playing in a reputable casino, I don't fear that the game results might be altered.

[leea-1334]

Well, if it cannot be proven fair then it is not provably fair, now is it?

However, hardly ever you see gamblers concerned about this matter nowadays. The stupid social influencers who are constantly promoting gambling should be also promoting this kind of discussion to educate their audience.

That is something I was saying a few times before,,, seems like as Bitcoin became more mainstream, the less people cared about the actual benefits you could do with it, including the hash methods that allowed us to check for fairness on our owns.

If influencers promoting Bitcoin never even used their own wallet or signed their own transaction and never even spent BTC then I guess what can we expect them to do with gambling  

[YellowSwap]

I am not quite sure about the possible manipulation when we can find that the game is provably fair because it ensures the results are random, so what can be done?

Not every game in a casino can be verified, most of the games are coming from gaming aggregator who are the sole responsibility for the games and the results, casino only manages the payouts based on the results.

You mean game providers right?
Game developers are the ones responsible for casino games and the game providers handles their distribution.

Many people don't know this, that game providers are the middle men between the developers and the casinos, they are the ones who do the testing too, and then make sure they are accessible.

I think out of the box all those games are made in such a way that casinos will be a step or two ahead of gamblers, this is something that even guarantees the payment of these providers.

[abel1337]

I am not quite sure about the possible manipulation when we can find that the game is provably fair because it ensures the results are random, so what can be done?

Not every game in a casino can be verified, most of the games are coming from gaming aggregator who are the sole responsibility for the games and the results, casino only manages the payouts based on the results.

You mean game providers right?
Game developers are the ones responsible for casino games and the game providers handles their distribution.

Many people don't know this, that game providers are the middle men between the developers and the casinos, they are the ones who do the testing too, and then make sure they are accessible.

I think out of the box all those games are made in such a way that casinos will be a step or two ahead of gamblers, this is something that even guarantees the payment of these providers.

That's a new knowledge to me. I though game providers are the one owning those games since there are games that have their names at the intro before you play a game. For long now, I though game provides have their own developers and making these games for the company and providing it to casinos.

Can anyone confirm this, It's new to me actually.