Could bitcoin be the moderator of a forum?

[billscoresby]

Here is a concept for a forum moderated by bitcoin:

- Each post costs a small fee in sats (paid to a community reward pool)
- Replies cost a small fee in sats (paid to a community reward pool)
- Upvotes cost a small fee in sats (paid to the poster)
- Post visibility/ranking is determined by sum of community investment (total sats spent on the post from all users) -- halved every x hours so as to keep things fresh.
- Community reward pool divided among most "valuable" users (valuable might be users who post things that get most upvotes or users who spend money to upvote things that others go on to upvote, etc)

What do you think of this idea? Where could it fail or cause friction? What dynamics might be interesting to add?

PS. Nick Szabo doesn't have to use the forum.

[Odohu]

This idea is not feasible and if implemented will reduce the number of participants here. As much as I know, this is a free discussion forum and funds raised here were mostly through donations. I know that Theymos pay some workers here and also for hosting the website and other things but the forum is still rich enough and does not need imposition of compulsory levies to use the forum. Did Theymos ask you to post this?

[Nathrixxx]

This is not going to work here but I don't know if in order forum or random platform you may see online, there are no criteria for being a member of this forum because you don't have to register or go through any centralized authority to get access.

I'm always careful about dealing with platforms that has to do with financial commitment or something related to making payment and accounting for what you have done and the likes, there won't be 100% transferability as you may want it and this will cause a lot of disunity among members that are concerned, there is no particular indices to use in determine for the difference between valuable members and non because people can also improve with time, why those you think are on the highest esteem may drop over time as well, but you overall idea here can't really work.

[billscoresby]

there are no criteria for being a member of this forum because you don't have to register or go through any centralized authority to get access.

I don't think kyc is necessary for such a forum model (well, I know it isn't). Bitcoin is permissionless and there's no way to stop people from sending each other sats.

Imagine a forum where users put transaction hashes at the bottom of their posts, and the forum software checked a block explorer and promoted the visibility of the posts that had actually paid. (There are all kinds of difficulties here with actually confirming that the transaction belonged to the user who made the post, but let's pretend they were solved).

I'm curious why you think the idea of attaching money to the act of posting is such a deal-breaker.

[Donneski]

Are you actually expecting a newbie who probably knows nothing about Bitcoin and also may not be financially stable but is very willing to learn to start learning by paying for every post?

Don't you think such idea defeats the basic purpose Satoshi created this community where people can freely interact about Bitcoin?

It's less than 2 years since you joined the forum, maybe you should go back to the early threads and discussions which was full of questions, technical explanations and newbie oriented conversations.

I don't know what exactly inspired this kind of idea but I strongly believe that putting a price on participation is largely going to discourage the people who mostly need the forum to learn.

[abel1337]

I believe that this kind of model had been considered before of course, for the sustenance lf maintaining this forum but I'm happy that theymos and the others doesn't believe on this kind of model. This forum relies on rare donations and copper membership as their source of income and seeing how things are going, I think it's enough. This forum received plenty donation on the early days of bitcoin and those donation are very large now in terms of value. I don't know how much treasury does this forum have currently but I believe that it will last them for a while if ever they held some portions of it up until now.

[SilverCryptoBullet]

Here is a concept for a forum moderated by bitcoin:

- Each post costs a small fee in sats (paid to a community reward pool)
- Replies cost a small fee in sats (paid to a community reward pool)
- Upvotes cost a small fee in sats (paid to the poster)
- Post visibility/ranking is determined by sum of community investment (total sats spent on the post from all users) -- halved every x hours so as to keep things fresh.
- Community reward pool divided among most "valuable" users (valuable might be users who post things that get most upvotes or users who spend money to upvote things that others go on to upvote, etc)

You will understand more about the forum by reading Welcome message. Like what are purposes of the forum, and you must know that forum's newbie jails will not return.

You can see that newbie jail will not return, and theymos' decision was not $ so not $ paid to be allowed to post. If it is about spams, there is signature ban. If it is about money, $, forum does not need more money.

Based on the fact that I now felt that the driving force behind theymos' decisions was not $

Right, I don't care about making money from the forum personally. (I've actually thought about getting rid of the forum ads, since it's often a big headache and the forum has enough reserves for a long time, but operating at a significant loss while there's money basically just sitting on the table feels wrong, even if the level of loss is sustainable for quite a while.)

The things on the forum which encourage spam are allowed mainly because it's part of the forum's mission to be as free as possible. Eg. banning bounties would undoubtedly reduce spam, but that'd be destroying an entire economy/population/culture which has been able to develop due to the forum's freedom. I am willing to take this sort of action, but only as an absolute last resort. It's always preferable to handle these problems by reshaping the environment to make them non-problems, rather than removing some freedom.

It's wonderful when someone is able to constructively do something on the forum instead of continuing with whatever they were expected to do under the status quo. Enabling that sort of thing is exactly why Bitcoin and this forum were created. Though bitcointalk.org is not a worldwide welfare organization, and people are not entitled to make money.

Limiting newbie participation is very harmful for a community. Newbie jail will never return: I consider the newbie-jail period to have been extremely damaging to the forum. When barriers to participation are too high, then the best people often just won't go to the trouble of joining, and the people who are willing to jump through the hoops are often people who aren't good for the community: people with nothing better to do, scammers, get-rick-quickers, etc. Having a permanent newbie jail policy would improve things a lot in the short-term, but would end up being a fatal poison to the community.

The low signal-to-noise is a real issue which seriously annoys me and is often on my mind. But as you mention, fixing it non-destructively is difficult.

What do you think of this idea? Where could it fail or cause friction? What dynamics might be interesting to add?

Terrible idea, honestly.

[Popkon6]

The forum has been open to members for a long time for free posting, there is no rule that states that no user has to pay. This forum is used for free, the forum standards have been maintained for a long time, and if you commit any crime here, your punishment is certain. And there are more rules, signature bans,
Theymos has not accepted any kind of money for using this forum and will not accept any extra money from any user in the future. Here you only have to reach the peak of others with your knowledge, and you do not need any authority's permission to register in this forum, which is completely free.

[billscoresby]

I do appreciate the strong feedback. I'd like to point out that my OP isn't about bitcointalk. It's an idea for some other forum.

I'm surprised that none of you like the idea of using bitcoin in this way.

How do you feel about the concept of zaps on nostr? The idea I outline above is similar to a paid relay with some sort of sybil fee.

[goldkingcoiner]

And what incentive would the non-top, regular posters have to participate in something that they can do for free anyway? Sure, they could earn money with merits but they would probably lose money just with posting.

I think you need to think of the incentives a bit more.  

Even if you did this with lightning implemented to reduce fees, the money lost would make posting expensive and unprofitable.

[suzanne5223]

What do you think of this idea? Where could it fail or cause friction? What dynamics might be interesting to add?

Yes, Bitcoin can be used to moderate as an algorithmic moderator instead of human admins, but it also comes with some disadvantages, especially for the newbies. It may be problematic for them to pay in sats since some of them will be unfamiliar with BTC micropayments, while the whales will see the forum as their playground to do whatever they like, just like we saw in the early days of BTC. Besides, the forum may also experience groups of people planning to manipulate rankings by mass upvoting each other's posts, and more.
I believe the forum will feel like a prediction market.

[Mitchell]

Almost feels like you are just trying to promote Stacker.news.

[Sunshine1525]

No. I spend most of my time on Stacker News, which is a forum that follows the model I outlined above, and I was curious what people here might think of the idea.

Every forum have their rules and mode of operation, i don't know if you've come across the one of Bitcointalk or know why Satoshi created this forum. If you do, i doubt you'll make such suggestion infact i don't think anyone would accept it not even Theymos so thanks for your suggestion, you can come up with something better than this, Bitcointalk won't borrow such ideas from one Stacker News.

[RGBTC]

Where is the equality for users?
The underlying concept is essentially "whoever pays the most gets their posts prioritized." It seems you need to take anti-Sybil monitoring more seriously.
On the bright side, this could serve as a moderation model for an anti-spam forum. Personally, I would only post if the visibility offered is greater than what Google search provides.

[retreat]

I do appreciate the strong feedback. I'd like to point out that my OP isn't about bitcointalk. It's an idea for some other forum.

I'm surprised that none of you like the idea of using bitcoin in this way.

How do you feel about the concept of zaps on nostr? The idea I outline above is similar to a paid relay with some sort of sybil fee.

It's understandable that most people don't like the idea, because forums should be accessible to everyone. If you think such a concept is innovative and has already been implemented by other forums, just let those other forums use it.

Or why don't you design a forum with that concept yourself? Perhaps people who like that concept could register on that forum, and you could create another forum like you mentioned.

But surely the majority of people here don't like that concept because Bitcointalk is already very good with its simple concept.

[MarryWithBTC]

- Post visibility/ranking is determined by sum of community investment (total sats spent on the post from all users) -- halved every x hours so as to keep things fresh.

You forgot to add that algorithm will determine which posts you read in the forum.

LoyceV, I summon you again to see another user that want to strip the freedom we enjoy here lol

[Dunamisx]

The forum has been open to members for a long time for free posting, there is no rule that states that no user has to pay. This forum is used for free,

Had it been this forum was not created by satoshi himself, maybe people would have suggested that it should be incentivized, and this will cause a lot of segregations and bias mind because it will definitely favor some people against others, there is no barrier as long as you are a member on this forum in what you stand to contribute as a newbie to what other experience members are given as well.

[billscoresby]

Where is the equality for users?
The underlying concept is essentially "whoever pays the most gets their posts prioritized." It seems you need to take anti-Sybil monitoring more seriously.
On the bright side, this could serve as a moderation model for an anti-spam forum. Personally, I would only post if the visibility offered is greater than what Google search provides.

You may note that Bitcoin also works on a pay to play basis. Miners tend to be more likely to mine transactions that pay higher fees rather than those that pay lower fees. Such a system has very strong sybil resistance. A normal forum may have any number of sock-puppets. How would you know how many there are? The same is true for a forum moderated by money, but at least you know that they had to pay the same as you -- and therefore the cost to the person operating such sock puppet accounts increases as they try to exert more influence.

[Hatchy]

Here is a concept for a forum moderated by bitcoin:

To me, the forum already follows the true nature and features of Bitcoin, including decentralization, censorship resistance, and freedom. It is one of the best forums I have seen, where people have, if not the highest, then at least a very high level of freedom of speech. You don't have to pay anything to post or gain knowledge. The main purpose of the Bitcoin forum is for Bitcoin lovers to discuss, learn, and share their opinions about the technology. Paying to post is already far from what Bitcoin represents. Also, don't confuse paying network fees for a Bitcoin transaction with paying a fee just to make a post. To me, they are completely different things, and comparing them doesn't make much sense. And lastly, you said the reward pool would be shared among good posters? Like, WTF? That just doesn't make sense man...

[NewRevelation]

No. I spend most of my time on Stacker News, which is a forum that follows the model I outlined above, and I was curious what people here might think of the idea.

Every forum have their rules and mode of operation, i don't know if you've come across the one of Bitcointalk or know why Satoshi created this forum. If you do, i doubt you'll make such suggestion infact i don't think anyone would accept it not even Theymos so thanks for your suggestion, you can come up with something better than this, Bitcointalk won't borrow such ideas from one Stacker News.

One of the best things that we enjoy here is the freedom to post and comments whenever and wherever we feel interested or have knowledge and/or possibly want to learn something new without getting to be restricted or asked to pay any amount for it. I believe once that is introduce, posting and activities will drastically reduce. Sure, some will still remain, but the healthy aspect of the forum will be truncated, especial its effectiveness and free flow. I Don't think such developments will be welcomed here at all. Nope!