The question of provable fairness standards

[swogerino]

Well to be honest, most gambling site could uses this provably fairness to attract more of the gambler to their site with the intention of having being most trusted casinos, if I must say all casinos preached to be that Fair but dip down I don't just think they are worth it as I do not know how they are calculating their fairness.
And this is what the gambler would want to listen over time because everyone searches for where to win a sustainable amount while gambling.

Most gamblers do not care about provably fair anymore, when it first was a thing some years ago it became somewhat massive, still for a short amount of time. The gambler of nowadays wanna know for real, the RTP if it is the same as the one advertised by the casino as many slot providers offers different range of RTP-s and only the casino would know, they would advertise like 96% RTP when in fact they would be giving like 89% RTP and this needs a way to be verified, we have no way still of how to verify the RTP of a certain slot machine at a certain casino for the moment, this is what most gamblers want to know nowadays including me. The fun fact is that gamblers despite not knowing true RTP they still play with the hope of getting the max win so most likely for most of them the provably fair thing is, well a thing of the past.

[DanWalker]

The recent report by probablyfair.org brings to question the standards of provable fairness across the industry.
Why would a casino risk such a reputational hit? The money is probably the answer.
Maybe us as gamblers should be more informed and demand better and uniform standards across the industry.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you for bringing up this crucial topic, alani!

This report by probablyfair.org is really eye opening for everyone. The way popular casino like Betfury are hiding skewed odds or extra house edge by using Provably Fair tag is really big slap in the face for our forum. Betfury has been promoting itself as honest for long time on our forum but has been running a lot of scams on inside.

Game result & hash were not manipulated later, they are only proving that. But it cannot be verified with SHA 256 that math & RTP behind generating those result was fair or not! So, they tricked by advertising 99% RTP on outside and running 97% or less real time payout on inside.

[Yeesha]

A game can be provable fair doesn't mean it is profitable. The odd still tells a different story. The game can be proved not to be manipulated and still be very unfavorable to gamblers. With all this it's best you base and fix your mind on a game that has probability. There will always be an house edge to favour the casino.

Yes, of course. Even if the casino is not manipulating the customers or the outcome of the game at the end of the game, that still doesn't guarantee profits, because luckily the casino might win legitimately. Just because a casino seem decent doesn't clarify its reputation, because their is a possibility of gaining their own profits through other ways. So, whether the game is favourable or unfavorable to the players, it might one way be favourable to them due to the odds. Every player should be aware of this principle, I don't know whether this applies to every casino but in several casino the odds are always designed to give the casino a long term advantage, so the players might be at high risk of losing unless the player is lucky enough.

[gracreavix]

The word fair is even occurred. Cause it seems like as if there's like an equal chance of you actually being profitable in gambling. Something like 50:50. But that is not always the case. Even transparency is just another word for I only show you what I want you to see and not necessarily what you yourself want to verify about the casino. All they showed you that the game are not manipulated, but are those the only thing to actually prove that. They're some areas that it will still favour the casino.

[henmark]

The recent report by probablyfair.org brings to question the standards of provable fairness across the industry.
Why would a casino risk such a reputational hit? The money is probably the answer.
Maybe us as gamblers should be more informed and demand better and uniform standards across the industry.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thank you for bringing up this crucial topic, alani!

This report by probablyfair.org is really eye opening for everyone. The way popular casino like Betfury are hiding skewed odds or extra house edge by using Provably Fair tag is really big slap in the face for our forum. Betfury has been promoting itself as honest for long time on our forum but has been running a lot of scams on inside.

Game result & hash were not manipulated later, they are only proving that. But it cannot be verified with SHA 256 that math & RTP behind generating those result was fair or not! So, they tricked by advertising 99% RTP on outside and running 97% or less real time payout on inside.

99% RTP? That even sounds like a scam. No casino or game provider would ever provide that much as RTP for their games or machines.

And by the way, the RTP is mostly set by the game providers, because mostly, the games are running on the provider's servers and the casino is just allowing us to play, the wins and losses are all going to the provider, and then the casino just gets a cut from the profits the provider is getting through them.

How it basically works is that the slot or game providers give casinos a license for their machines, the casinos list their games in their platforms, players play the games, and in those games, RTP, winning limits, and all those things are basically set by the providers and they have these things adjusted based on how much revenue the machine can generate in a month, which means that even if some gamblers hit a 20,000x in a single month, the machine will still not be at a loss because it must have already made more profit than it is giving away.

RTPs are never a guarantee that you will actually get that much of your lost amount back, it's just a possibility, and there is also no fixed timeframe for that to happen.

[Emeraldo]

The word fair is even occurred. Cause it seems like as if there's like an equal chance of you actually being profitable in gambling. Something like 50:50. But that is not always the case. Even transparency is just another word for I only show you what I want you to see and not necessarily what you yourself want to verify about the casino. All they showed you that the game are not manipulated, but are those the only thing to actually prove that. They're some areas that it will still favour the casino.

There are some games that have full transparency when you play them but that does not mean you that you are not going to lose money when you play these games for a long period. Gambling always favour the casino that is offering the service and we should not think that we are going to be profitable always since a game is probably fair.

 I have played slot games that have 98% RTP and after playing for more than 12 hours consecutively, I still end up losing money to the casino. The longer you play, the high chances you are going to lose money definitely which we can not change the fact.

[Ayers]

Most gamblers do not care about provably fair anymore, when it first was a thing some years ago it became somewhat massive, still for a short amount of time. The gambler of nowadays wanna know for real, the RTP if it is the same as the one advertised by the casino as many slot providers offers different range of RTP-s and only the casino would know, they would advertise like 96% RTP when in fact they would be giving like 89% RTP and this needs a way to be verified, we have no way still of how to verify the RTP of a certain slot machine at a certain casino for the moment, this is what most gamblers want to know nowadays including me. The fun fact is that gamblers despite not knowing true RTP they still play with the hope of getting the max win so most likely for most of them the provably fair thing is, well a thing of the past.

I couldn't agree more with what you said. As you argue RTP is important to know, but I'd say Provable Fair is still the best and it's not out of date yet. Rather, its importance in the world of online gambling is now more than ever.

You said yourself that casinos can show 96% in ads and set 89% inside. We all know that in traditional casino we have no way to verify RTP. But Provably Fair game use cryptographic hash. This allows us to check whether outcome of each spin or round was predetermined, or if the casino rigged it midway. RTP works as an average of billions of spin. If you play 1000 spin we will never immediately get same outcome as declared RTP. So it is impossible to understand whether any single session is fair or not with RTP alone. So both have different function and importance.

[alani123]

I guess the bigger responsibility is on regulators, on the agencies that issued the licenses. Do they even function? Do they conduct regular audit? Do they strictly implement policies that protect consumers? Do they prosecute or penalize cheating casinos? I guess they don't.

Funny as it may sound, I have never seen a report before from casino regulators addressing an issue that they must have discovered about a casino and give a heads up so that players can stop using that casino.

It left me with the question of whether the regulators do not bother to regularly audit a casino that they have licenced to check if those casinos are still abiding to the right policies and are not cheating players. If actually there's a regular regulatory audit on these licensed casino, they regulators can be the ones to detect it and warn players against using the casino, but I don't think they do it.

If there was a case of regulators prosecuting a casino for manipulating a game results, I have not seen one, maybe someone can show me a case like that if they have seen one.

Supposedly anjuan licenses check randomness and probability. But the fact thst many casinos who actually operate under this licence still chest shows that it means jack shit in reality. They check nothing and once any entity has laid for a license they get a blank slate to do whatever they want.

Not to say that government licenses even from big countries like US states, Canadian territories or even EU countries would be much better. How can they verify the randomness and probability? They're incompetent first of all and regulators are not to be trusted with anything technical. Casinos could be cheating anyone for real.

[CryptoBuds]

Why would a casino risk such a reputational hit?

imo, it is not just because of greed or money. Rather main reason is lack of third-party auditing obligation in  industry. Casino owners know very well that 99% of player will never decode bet and verify seed or hash. And those one or two technical players who will verify, they will only get the evidence of result change, but will not be able to catch hidden Odds inside algorithm. As a result, taking this risk is very easy and profitable business for casino!

[boyptc]

That's because not all users are checking if they're into a casino that really stands with the provably fair that they're saying.

If you look at how many gamblers really care about it, I don't think that the majority would say about they care about if the game they play is provably fair.

And that's because they only gamble with a small amount and just passing by to have fun.

But for those who are serious with their gambling activities and very sensitive, they can't pass on these kinds of gamblers like the one who made that report.

It's even not that easy to check that independently.
In order to understand what you're doing you need some computer science knowledge that isn't even that basic.

Most students in CompSci would take cryptographic algorithms in their second or third year out of a four year program. So really for someone to be self taught in how to check cryptographic chains it might take some extra time or at least some sort of talent or past experience with similar hobbies.

There are utilities to help you check online but they aren't really independent and might be inclined to lie to help a casino.

You have a point that it's not for beginners to check if it's provably fair or not. There's a technical knowledge for one to do it.

But I think due to curiosity and discussions like this, if someone is interested into it. They'll start to learn how but most likely, we just gamble and accept if we lose.

Being self taught won't be that easy and only those who continue to gamble with the same game for having provably fair will benefit from it. And that's why not everyone checks it and just passes on it and are not taking time to dig it.