2up.io confiscating entire balance including deposit

[Pmalek]

Just to be clear: I'm not saying Holydarkness harmed me intentionally by making such a bad judgment call.

He probably is honest but does not understand a thing about sportsbetting and 2up took advantage of that by selling him a bulshit story. If he did then he would first think logically and see that there is no advantage to bet on opposite outcomes simultaneously within the same bookmaker. It would be a suicide strategy for the player to get some guaranteed losses. So this should already set off alarm bells for him as to why any player would do this.

I understand what you are saying. At the same time, I don't think Holydarkness needs to concern himself about the motivations of why someone did what they did (in your case, place bets on opposite results). As a mediator, his only concern is if there is proof that non-allowed actions took place. According to him, the casino provided him with that proof. We can speculate and guess why someone would do that but that doesn't get us anywhere. 

[MegaAkker]

Just to be clear: I'm not saying Holydarkness harmed me intentionally by making such a bad judgment call.

He probably is honest but does not understand a thing about sportsbetting and 2up took advantage of that by selling him a bulshit story. If he did then he would first think logically and see that there is no advantage to bet on opposite outcomes simultaneously within the same bookmaker. It would be a suicide strategy for the player to get some guaranteed losses. So this should already set off alarm bells for him as to why any player would do this.

I understand what you are saying. At the same time, I don't think Holydarkness needs to concern himself about the motivations of why someone did what they did (in your case, place bets on opposite results). As a mediator, his only concern is if there is proof that non-allowed actions took place. According to him, the casino provided him with that proof. We can speculate and guess why someone would do that but that doesn't get us anywhere.  

There is nothing wrong with showing that same proof in here with some screenshots, usernames blurred. Takes just a couple of minutes. Then we can all judge and if 2UP is right in their allegations it will only look good for them. Now people will have doubts. I do think Holydarkness should also consider the possibility that 2UP did make this story up and fabricated some fake screenshots to support the story. It would not be the first time a casino would pull something like that off.

Btw I also wonder based on which term exactly Holydarkness feels a total confiscation of funds (not only winnings but also deposit) would be justified. Can you name that specific term Holydarkness?

[Slow death]

@holydarkness has made the final decision; he stated very clearly that the casino showed him proof. Given his vast experience and great reputation on this forum, I trust @holydarkness, and I think you should accept this outcome as well. Regarding showing proof here: if you have any proof, you can show it. The casino already provided proof to Holydarkness and from what I gathered from Holydarkness's post, it was convincing proof. If the casino were in the wrong, they wouldn't have provided proof or even responded. Therefore, it is clear that your side is the one that is in the wrong.

[MrGambler531]

@holydarkness has made the final decision; he stated very clearly that the casino showed him proof. Given his vast experience and great reputation on this forum, I trust @holydarkness, and I think you should accept this outcome as well. Regarding showing proof here: if you have any proof, you can show it. The casino already provided proof to Holydarkness and from what I gathered from Holydarkness's post, it was convincing proof. If the casino were in the wrong, they wouldn't have provided proof or even responded. Therefore, it is clear that your side is the one that is in the wrong.

Normally speaking, I would agree with you. If it would be a believable story plus screenshots, I would trust Holydarkness' assessment. But the explanation of 2UP is SO not making any sense at all, that I think it would be very welcome to get some screenshots posted here. Somebody willing to lose money on purpose, in 3 accounts simultaneously, by betting on the same games on different outcomes. It does not sit well with me that Holydarkness is just buying this story so easily. I get the feeling he has way more experience with casino than sportsbetting and 2UP is taking advantage of this. The feeling that Holydarkness does not have much sportsbetting experience also comes from this remark which he posted in the final statement in the Contesthunters dispute (to be seen here: https://contesthunters.com/disputes/32): "We have received substantiative evidences from the casino that the situation is not like what you depicted. Your account was tied to two other IP, bound by same IP, that put bets at the same time, on opposing results, with deliberate omission to mention other identitive flags that lead to a detection of you creating a loss-less situation".

I am very curious what is being meant by a "loss-less situation". Normally speaking I would translate it as lose, but less. But this would make no sense and I believe he meant a "situation without any loss" as in a winning situation. Would you please clarify what you meant by this Holydarkness? Is it the former or the latter?

[nutildah]

I'm trying to understand the logic behind why it would be OK to confiscate the player's deposit in this case as that does not seem to be a standard crypto casino procedure. Everything else is more up in the air.

[SuperBitMan]

Those who come here to complain about a casino will never admit that they did something wrong that led to the actions the casino took, from what holydarkness explained its very clear that the OP broke there terms and conditions.
The OP will never admit he was at fault and I get it, the complaint never do wrong.

OP stop trying to prolong this matter, from your last comment here I can tell you actually know you are at fault but it was not your intention to break the casino terms and conditions, you didn’t read it and was not aware but that’s not an excuse, like they say ignorance is not an excuse to the law.

[holydarkness]

My apology, there was a major error in my explanation following the verdict. If I may defend myself --though I own the mistake in full-- I was waiting for supporting evidence that I asked, the proof of multiple IP tied to the alleged accounts, that took days to be procured, while the initial counter-accusation was given. I am sorry for this.

I re-reviewed the evidences given before the IP-ties, it was actually betting on exact similar outcome, on exact similar IP, placed on a very narrow time difference, which lead to multi-acc and betting limitation circumvention. After reviewing the evidence once more, I can see that one account seemingly also limited at betting amount [though not minuscule], and thus the other account chipped in.

Above all that, the other account also got a prior warning of multi-acc abusing bonus.

I can not provide information here [for anyone that asked] censored or nor, because it is propriety of the casino and I am not allowed to share, only bear witness. But I am sure from what I saw and explanation that I read that breach of ToS happened.

Player is on the PnL positive, if I read between the line correctly, so the rest of the winning was confiscated and no more fund to be refunded.

[Pmalek]

So MrGambler531 had two accounts. One was already limited and he created the second one to circumvent the betting limitations and bet more than he was allowed to. Bets were placed at the same outcomes from both accounts and the same IP addresses around the same time. Besides that, one account already received a warning for multi accounting and casino bonus abuse.

@MrGambler531, is any of that true or will you deny everything/some of it?

[nutildah]

Player is on the PnL positive, if I read between the line correctly, so the rest of the winning was confiscated and no more fund to be refunded.

OK, thanks for the additional info. I was asked by OP to look into this complaint, and I trust what you and the casino are saying is correct.

[MrGambler531]

Wowwww so it's suddenly a whole different story?? How can this happen?
This is INSANE! First it was 3 accounts betting on opposite outcomes, to which you pledged you had seen the irresputable evidence of, and now it's suddenly just 2 accounts and betting on the same outcomes.......that is a 180 twist just like that.

Can you imagine how I feel now? I submitted the dispute to get it researched in a fair objective way and then I hear the story is being changed just like that. From irresputable evidence to suddenly other facts. Can you imagine that I now doubt how irresputable that evidence actually was? And with that doubt I now also question if the evidence to the current story is actually that irresputable? Not trying to be mean and I appreciate your efforts but you have to understand my skepticism now, right?


Let me be clear about this, I do NOT have 2 accounts. I have only 1 which I opened in the beginning of August via the VIP transfer program of 2UP as I stated before. They manually approved me and accepted me. And if they wanted they could have possibly checked with that other bookmaker where my VIP transfer came from for my personal details and then they would see I'm a unique person who does not have a 2UP account yet.

The only thing I can mention is that I do have a friend who plays at 2UP too, who lives close to me, a couple streets away but not in the same household. He is the one who recommended 2UP to me since he was very satisfied with 2UP and is a Ruby 2 VIP. But I just asked him and he says his account is still fully active, not limited in stakes, not banned in any kind of way. In fact he recently could still claim a monthly bonus and that was way after my account got disabled. So I cannot imagine it's that account you are talking about. His username is Axie2025, can you tell me if this is the account you are talking about? I find it hard to imagine because this person is a long-standing VIP who has an account already for a year with 1.6 million in total sports wagers. And if it was this account, then I would think it would be disabled now too, right?

It's not uncommon that people join sportsbooks based on mouth-to-mouth recommendations, right? Me and Axie2025 did NOT log in from the same device, did not log in from the same IP, and did not place the same bets. The only thing that could possibly come up is that, if 2UP uses some kind of geo-location, it will indeed show us being close to each other on the map. But that is simply due to the fact that we live in the same neighbourhood as I said, that is not forbidden, is it? So, please tell me if this is the account you are talking about so we can get that sorted out.

IF the second account that is being meant here is Axie2025 then we can compare the list of bets and list of IP's next to each other and see what is actually overlapping. So please tell me if this is case and then we can move further from there. That account is the ONLY thing I can think of that is in some kind of way tied to me, but literally only because he recommended 2UP to me via mouth-to-mouth recommendation, not even via referral.

Let's get to the bottom of this together. I think that is the least thing you owe me after making such a big mistake in the irresputable evidences which were understood wrongly, for which you have apologized.

So tell me, is it Axie2025 yes or no, and if so, then why is his account still open?

[MrGambler531]

So MrGambler531 had two accounts. One was already limited and he created the second one to circumvent the betting limitations and bet more than he was allowed to. Bets were placed at the same outcomes from both accounts and the same IP addresses around the same time. Besides that, one account already received a warning for multi accounting and casino bonus abuse.

@MrGambler531, is any of that true or will you deny everything/some of it?

See my response above. It is not true. I have a friend who recommended 2UP to me and I decided to join. But his account is still open, not limited and we did not log in from same IP, not from same device and did not place the same bets. The only thing in common we have is that we live close to each other and both like baseball. But if we objectively look at the list of bets and list of logins I am sure every reasonable person would see there is no overlap and to confiscate winnings and deposit for this reason is a major overreaction and totally unfair.

[holydarkness]

Wowwww so it's suddenly a whole different story?? How can this happen?

I oversee so many cases here and on CH, have personal life with their own crisis, and personal business [this thing I do on the foru are for free and my way to "pay back" our mother fate] that has their own complications. And it's been a while since I consult to my notebook and write everything.

I was given evidence of bets that become the root of the matter alongside with their narrative and supporting evidences and I inquire for further proof, as I am not convinced beyond reasonable doubt and require more.

They were out of touch for several days and I have my own life at the time being, and when they give the supporting evidence, I recall the narrative from the top of my head. Mistakes happened, I owned it, I straightened it.

The narrative never changed, it was bet on similar outcome, and betting limit circumvention, it was me who remember the details wrongly. I guess I need to begin writing everything down again.

This is INSANE! [...]

So now a friend around the block was involved? Classic. Next narrative as per the guideline should be your mother's brother's son.

[MrGambler531]

Wowwww so it's suddenly a whole different story?? How can this happen?

I oversee so many cases here and on CH, have personal life with their own crisis, and personal business [this thing I do on the foru are for free and my way to "pay back" our mother fate] that has their own complications. And it's been a while since I consult to my notebook and write everything.

I was given evidence of bets that become the root of the matter alongside with their narrative and supporting evidences and I inquire for further proof, as I am not convinced beyond reasonable doubt and require more.

They were out of touch for several days and I have my own life at the time being, and when they give the supporting evidence, I recall the narrative from the top of my head. Mistakes happened, I owned it, I straightened it.

The narrative never changed, it was bet on similar outcome, and betting limit circumvention, it was me who remember the details wrongly. I guess I need to begin writing everything down again.

This is INSANE! [...]

So now a friend around the block was involved? Classic. Next narrative as per the guideline should be your mother's brother's son.

Well, it's not only that you remembered the narrative wrong. You also changed the story from 3 accounts to 2, which is also a weird and not unimportant detail to get wrong. I do think it would indeed be wise to start writing details down.

I'm not saying a friend is involved. I was thinking of scenarios that could possibly fit into their story and this is the only one I can think of. That they see via geo-location or something that there is another account not so far away. It is completely legal and normal that friends recommend betting sites to each other. I don't see what would be wrong or weird with that. I repeat: we did NOT work together in any kind of way or place the same bets. And his account is still completely open and active. And that is the weird thing: if he was involved then wouldn't they disable his account too?

So don't put it on me now as if I'm admitting now suddenly a friend is working with me. I am doing the exact opposite. I want to prove that this friend did NOT have anything to do with my own bets.

So, tell me, is this 2nd person 2UP is talking about Axie2025 (his username) yes or no? Then we will put the list of his bets next to my list and we go compare. That is the most fair thing to do, and if you are convinced of your story then I will look like a total fool in here with the proof against me. After we have done that I will shut up.

I'm not even asking you to post screenshots at this point. I have asked Axie for his screenshots and he will give them to me. Then all I need is to get back the login of my own account and we can make the fair comparison right here in public.

[holydarkness]

Wowwww so it's suddenly a whole different story?? How can this happen?

I oversee so many cases here and on CH, have personal life with their own crisis, and personal business [this thing I do on the foru are for free and my way to "pay back" our mother fate] that has their own complications. And it's been a while since I consult to my notebook and write everything.

I was given evidence of bets that become the root of the matter alongside with their narrative and supporting evidences and I inquire for further proof, as I am not convinced beyond reasonable doubt and require more.

They were out of touch for several days and I have my own life at the time being, and when they give the supporting evidence, I recall the narrative from the top of my head. Mistakes happened, I owned it, I straightened it.

The narrative never changed, it was bet on similar outcome, and betting limit circumvention, it was me who remember the details wrongly. I guess I need to begin writing everything down again.

This is INSANE! [...]

So now a friend around the block was involved? Classic. Next narrative as per the guideline should be your mother's brother's son.

Well, it's not only that you remembered the narrative wrong. You also changed the story from 3 accounts to 2, which is also a weird and not unimportant detail to get wrong. I do think it would indeed be wise to start writing details down.

I'm not saying a friend is involved. I was thinking of scenarios that could possibly fit into their story and this is the only one I can think of. That they see via geo-location or something that there is another account not so far away. It is completely legal and normal that friends recommend betting sites to each other. I don't see what would be wrong or weird with that. I repeat: we did NOT work together in any kind of way or place the same bets. And his account is still completely open and active. And that is the weird thing: if he was involved then wouldn't they disable his account too?

So don't put it on me now as if I'm admitting now suddenly a friend is working with me. I am doing the exact opposite. I want to prove that this friend did NOT have anything to do with my own bets.

So, tell me, is this 2nd person 2UP is talking about Axie2025 (his username) yes or no? Then we will put the list of his bets next to my list and we go compare. That is the most fair thing to do, and if you are convinced of your story then I will look like a total fool in here with the proof against me. After we have done that I will shut up.

I'm not even asking you to post screenshots at this point. I have asked Axie for his screenshots and he will give them to me. Then all I need is to get back the login of my own account and we can make the fair comparison right here in public.

Nope, I didn't change the narrative of two or three accounts being involved here. Three accounts are involved. Betting on similar outcome with minuscule time differences are involved. Account being warned that only one account per household to avoid bonus-abuse is involved.

Axie or not-Axie is no longer a matter, nor a thing to confirm or deny. Shared IP across multiple accounts was evident, being in the positive [by many folds] was evident [otherwise, I'll fight for return of initial deposit], a warning to not abuse bonus and to stick to original account was evident, a flag about multiple account betting on same outcome, where one looks limited and other are not, is evident.

The verdict was made not without heavy burden in my shoulder, but it is made nonetheless. It is made with heavy consideration from evidence showed, and it will not change.

[MrGambler531]

Wowwww so it's suddenly a whole different story?? How can this happen?

I oversee so many cases here and on CH, have personal life with their own crisis, and personal business [this thing I do on the foru are for free and my way to "pay back" our mother fate] that has their own complications. And it's been a while since I consult to my notebook and write everything.

I was given evidence of bets that become the root of the matter alongside with their narrative and supporting evidences and I inquire for further proof, as I am not convinced beyond reasonable doubt and require more.

They were out of touch for several days and I have my own life at the time being, and when they give the supporting evidence, I recall the narrative from the top of my head. Mistakes happened, I owned it, I straightened it.

The narrative never changed, it was bet on similar outcome, and betting limit circumvention, it was me who remember the details wrongly. I guess I need to begin writing everything down again.

This is INSANE! [...]

So now a friend around the block was involved? Classic. Next narrative as per the guideline should be your mother's brother's son.

Well, it's not only that you remembered the narrative wrong. You also changed the story from 3 accounts to 2, which is also a weird and not unimportant detail to get wrong. I do think it would indeed be wise to start writing details down.

I'm not saying a friend is involved. I was thinking of scenarios that could possibly fit into their story and this is the only one I can think of. That they see via geo-location or something that there is another account not so far away. It is completely legal and normal that friends recommend betting sites to each other. I don't see what would be wrong or weird with that. I repeat: we did NOT work together in any kind of way or place the same bets. And his account is still completely open and active. And that is the weird thing: if he was involved then wouldn't they disable his account too?

So don't put it on me now as if I'm admitting now suddenly a friend is working with me. I am doing the exact opposite. I want to prove that this friend did NOT have anything to do with my own bets.

So, tell me, is this 2nd person 2UP is talking about Axie2025 (his username) yes or no? Then we will put the list of his bets next to my list and we go compare. That is the most fair thing to do, and if you are convinced of your story then I will look like a total fool in here with the proof against me. After we have done that I will shut up.

I'm not even asking you to post screenshots at this point. I have asked Axie for his screenshots and he will give them to me. Then all I need is to get back the login of my own account and we can make the fair comparison right here in public.

Nope, I didn't change the narrative of two or three accounts being involved here. Three accounts are involved. Betting on similar outcome with minuscule time differences are involved. Account being warned that only one account per household to avoid bonus-abuse is involved.

Axie or not-Axie is no longer a matter, nor a thing to confirm or deny. Shared IP across multiple accounts was evident, being in the positive [by many folds] was evident [otherwise, I'll fight for return of initial deposit], a warning to not abuse bonus and to stick to original account was evident, a flag about multiple account betting on same outcome, where one looks limited and other are not, is evident.

The verdict was made not without heavy burden in my shoulder, but it is made nonetheless. It is made with heavy consideration from evidence showed, and it will not change.

Three accounts is absolutely impossible. I only know one other person who plays at 2UP and that is this Axie2025. And I repeat that I do not work with him together. He recommended 2UP to me about 2 months ago and that is it. As I said I placed only about 10 bets on my account. He places much much more bets than me and much higher stakes. Maybe, possibly, 1 or 2 out of those 10 bets were the same ones. Certainly not more. I would not call that clear proof, as there are only 2 teams to bet on: A or B. It would be even more coincidence that out of 10 bets there would be zero the same bets statistically. And maybe the bet placement time is not that far off from each other because almost all people who bet on MLB live place their bets in the time-outs between innings. So you are always gonna see that those are the peak times of bet placements.
We cannot possibly have used the same IP as we obviously have our own internet connection both. As I said, maybe via geo-location it will show up as being around the same location on the map because thos locations are not super accurate. Yes, but is that forbidden? Can 2 people not have both an account in the same neighbourhood?

I think it's a rediculous harsh decision to confiscate my deposit even because my friend is in profit over his account lifetime. What can I do about that?

Two big questions remain:
- if Axie2025 is involved, why is his account still open and usable and why did he not even get any message about this situation?
- you were talking about "hundreds of the same IP logs". Do you realize I only placed about 10 bets on my account? How can there be so many logs then? Or are you even denying that I placed only 10 sports bets on my account?

[Hendrikus51]

@holydarkness
Based on what term did you find it fair for the casino to confiscate even the deposit? I mean, winnings is not uncommon but even deposit is extreme.

[GODENKOR]

I’m amazed this casino hasn’t been removed from here yet—I’m absolutely stunned by the site’s stupidity. A casino that steals players' deposits should be permanently banned from the site, with no chance of ever returning.