Should ban waves based on IP data be restored?

[alani123]

Following some discussions on banning spammers from wearing a signature, I'm thinking, why not take the initiative a bit further and apply heuristics not just based on language correlation and the quality of posts, but also based on IP data.

Signature payments provide a very high incentive to exploit the forum in various ways. Account sales, hacks etc. can be utilised to farm accounts and for instance an individual may utilize several accounts covertly to post here as a full time source of income. This process can be supercharged now with LLMs. And keep in mind the database hack that had leaked credentials of many old accounts which may still be exploited.

As far as I am aware using multiple accounts as one person isn't directly banned, but should nevertheless be banned if someone makes it a job to use them for signature earnings, right?

So if we are doing sig bans, why not give global moderators the right of way to ALSO look into IP logs so they can figure out which accounts are the most blatant abusers of sockpuppetry and weed out some account farming networks?

[_act_]

As far as I am aware using multiple accounts as one person isn't directly banned, but should nevertheless be banned if someone makes it a job to use them for signature earnings, right?

I have seen a moderator that was in Chipmixer and Sportsbet campaigns before. That means using another account to join a campaign is not the problem. The problem is when the person use it to spam. People believe the more account someone have, the higher can be the spam the person is posting. Such people can be banned. But I think admin will not give moderators the power to see people's IP addresses because of this reason. If the sigban continue to be effective, I think it is enough.

[PX-Z]

IP address matching is unreliable due to different use of network like mobile and wifi, then there are VPNs, proxies, etc.

Giving mods the power to check ip log is not necessary and knowing what happened to the previous mod who was bribed and linked to a casino. That could happen to any mod in the future like selling ip data or whatever their use of the data.

[Odohu]

IP data are sensitive information and constitute a serious breach on privacy. While your idea of taking the fight against cheating and spamming of the forum is genuine, we should also consider the implication of sharing people's IP data. I don't know if Theymos will be willing to shoulder the burden that comes with that.

I don't know when people were banned in past using IP data but if that idea was discarded, it could be because Theymos deemed it necessary. Before I forget, the idea of banning people now is primarily to clean the forum of spammers, amd I dont think your post is tailored in that direction.

[Free Market Capitalist]

I'm speaking from memory, but as far as I recall, only theymos and Cyrus have the ability to view IP addresses, and this forum is quite respectful of privacy. I don't think they will give all moderators the ability to check IP addresses; if anything, it might be someone specifically appointed for that purpose, should the need arise.

[SuperBitMan]

There was a post I saw on X few days ago that talked about how privacy has been invaded in many ways and how people are no longer safe.

Few weeks ago theymos created a thread about how a mod was helping out a casino to delete all there accusation cases.
HERE is it: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5589060.msg66966931#msg66966931.
Mods or anyone can’t be trusted with peoples IP information.

A lot of people have reviewed a lot concerning their bitcoin investment and transactions and the reason why they had the mind to do that is because of how the forum takes privacy very serious.
The forum is known as a place where your privacy is protected and it’s one of the reasons why people love this forum, it should continue that way.

Account farms will always be caught and they have always been caught many times, so I see no reason to break how the forum is structured to protect people’s privacy.

[Frankolala]

There's no need for that because everyone deserves their privacy. Provided that someone that have an alt isn't cheating in contest and signature campaigns, and didn't break any forum rules, he should be allowed to enjoy his privacy. It's if it's a serious case of farm accounts and there's need for checking IP logs to avoid false accusations is when theymos himself can check IP logs for clarification just like this one.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5592644.msg67113233#msg67113233

[eaLiTy]

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So if we are doing sig bans, why not give global moderators the right of way to ALSO look into IP logs so they can figure out which accounts are the most blatant abusers of sockpuppetry and weed out some account farming networks?

Like @Free Market Capitalist mentioned above, only @theymos and @Cyrus have the ability to check IP logs, as per my understanding, and it will remain that way since this information should remain private. If there is a suspected alt connection, @theymos has mentioned that he will assist in comparing the IP logs whenever possible. He did that in the past before the trust system was in place, and he also recently corroborated IP logs in a recent case.

[Btcdeybodi]

So if we are doing sig bans, why not give global moderators the right of way to ALSO look into IP logs so they can figure out which accounts are the most blatant abusers of sockpuppetry and weed out some account farming networks?

This is an anonymous forum, going extreme to reveal IP addresses of forum users to global moderators is somewhat a breach to the privacy of forum users. I think it should remain in the power of theymos to reveal IP addresses in a case where it is necessary just like in this case

Except for obvious cases of scamming, I don't think it is necessary for users IP addresses to be accessible by many moderators.

Theymos should decide which case an IP address should be revealed

I have historically published alt-check info in these sorts of investigations from time to time, and I'll continue to do so from time to time. Though like I mentioned above, IP evidence should ideally be used as a final step to confirm something that is already strongly suspected.

[IjawMan]

While your idea is for a good course, do you think theymos will accept taking a chance on it considering the legal and ethical risks concerns that IP address breach can lead to.

Moderator bribed to delete scam accusations against Winna This I'm not generalising to question the integrity of the forum moderators but it just a reference.

And theymos him self posted it, now you have to reflect on the chance of this idea of yours becoming a thing he will consider to implement after that discovery.

[Zoomic]

Account farming is real, majority of us here are aware of that, however, I think it's also important to differentiate detecting suspicious accounts and exposing IP information.

If moderators are given the freedom to access IPs, they can match two accounts using their IP address but that still might not prove immediately that they belong to the same person.

A household, workplace, school or even mobile carrier can have multiple users that are sharing the same address while VPNs and proxies makes the opposite problem possible.

So while I totally agree that the forum can improve how to detect coordinated abuse especially where signature campaigns and hacked accounts are involved, I think there are loopholes that can make this measure you introduced not totally effective or accurate.

[alani123]

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So if we are doing sig bans, why not give global moderators the right of way to ALSO look into IP logs so they can figure out which accounts are the most blatant abusers of sockpuppetry and weed out some account farming networks?

Like @Free Market Capitalist mentioned above, only @theymos and @Cyrus have the ability to check IP logs, as per my understanding, and it will remain that way since this information should remain private. If there is a suspected alt connection, @theymos has mentioned that he will assist in comparing the IP logs whenever possible. He did that in the past before the trust system was in place, and he also recently corroborated IP logs in a recent case.

Well,.if a single other person is trusted with information like an IP log, it still isn't an invasion of privacy. If I trust someone to have his log, they can in theory do whatever they want with it. So sharing with one person they trust only for an explicit purpose is just the same risk. The log could have been shared before anyway,.it's not like another pair of eyes is going to change much.

[Chibit01]

Like @Free Market Capitalist mentioned above, only @theymos and @Cyrus have the ability to check IP logs, as per my understanding, and it will remain that way since this information should remain private. If there is a suspected alt connection, @theymos has mentioned that he will assist in comparing the IP logs whenever possible. He did that in the past before the trust system was in place, and he also recently corroborated IP logs in a recent case.

Well,.if a single other person is trusted with information like an IP log, it still isn't an invasion of privacy. If I trust someone to have his log, they can in theory do whatever they want with it. So sharing with one person they trust only for an explicit purpose is just the same risk. The log could have been shared before anyway,.it's not like another pair of eyes is going to change much.

In as much as the reason for this request might be good from your own end, I still think we are asking for too much. The forum is just better the way it is. I don't see any need to grant another person access to the IP of users. Trust is one thing to do that no doubt but the more eye/hands that have access to it the more exposed it is already to the public, let the admin just handle things in rare cases like he has been doing.

[Mia Chloe]

I have seen a moderator that was in Chipmixer and Sportsbet campaigns before. That means using another account to join a campaign is not the problem. The problem is when the person use it to spam. People believe the more account someone have, the higher can be the spam the person is posting. Such people can be banned. But I think admin will not give moderators the power to see people's IP addresses because of this reason. If the sigban continue to be effective, I think it is enough.

The moment the forum administrators trivialise the idea of giving out the IP addresses of users on the forum then they are totally defying what they seem to preach every day which is privacy. If anyone can demand for the IP of another user so easily what's gonna be the point of preaching privacy anymore?

Most banned accounts broke forum rules and they usually fall in the category of cheating, plagiarism and use of AI content.

[alani123]

I have seen a moderator that was in Chipmixer and Sportsbet campaigns before. That means using another account to join a campaign is not the problem. The problem is when the person use it to spam. People believe the more account someone have, the higher can be the spam the person is posting. Such people can be banned. But I think admin will not give moderators the power to see people's IP addresses because of this reason. If the sigban continue to be effective, I think it is enough.

The moment the forum administrators trivialise the idea of giving out the IP addresses of users on the forum then they are totally defying what they seem to preach every day which is privacy. If anyone can demand for the IP of another user so easily what's gonna be the point of preaching privacy anymore?

Most banned accounts broke forum rules and they usually fall in the category of cheating, plagiarism and use of AI content.

Global admins probably already have access to this information.
But afaik they don't utilize it anymore to ban anyone unless it's something very blatant like ruining an entire section of the forum.

So de fscto for maybe 10 years now or more it's been allowed for anyone to make it his job multi accounting on signature campaigns, reponding to themselves etc. Do it subtly and no one will suspect, the "authorities" of the forum are just turning a blind eye even through they see the evidence.

[Charles-Tim]

If moderators are given the freedom to access IPs, they can match two accounts using their IP address but that still might not prove immediately that they belong to the same person.

A household, workplace, school or even mobile carrier can have multiple users that are sharing the same address while VPNs and proxies makes the opposite problem possible.

Maybe there can also be rules about one IP address for each users just like how it is on gambling sites. For households or group of friends, using router could be totally forbidden. What do you think about this? 🤔

Some people will use Tor and VPN. EOD.

I have a family friend like a younger brother to me. He told me how the network in their school is very bad and they bought Starlink within themselves and contributing the monthly money for subscription.

Why do some people like asking a question when they know that the admin will not do what they want?

[dkbit98]

Some people will use Tor and VPN. EOD.

Yeah it's certainly a bad idea to ban someone because of their IP addresses.
If we start going down that road than soon nobody will be able to browse forum with Tor browser.
We already have some IP restrictions for registration, and I know this because in the past several people I know could not register in forum because of this, and I they never visited form before in their life.