Reports about wallet-draining by Ledger users. Total losses $86M+

[Meuserna]

After this story no way that I would every buy hardware wallet from official resellers. I can't trust third part anymore after this. And yeah, why always Ledger, like their reputation wouldn't be bad enough. But people will continue to buy from them, no matter what.
 

If you buy direct from Ledger, you get your name and home address leaked. If you buy from an authorized reseller, you get a hacked device. You're screwed either way.

This is why I recommend DIY solutions like SeedSigner, ShieldSigner, Krux & Kern to those who know understand self custody. By not using "hardware wallet" hardware, you remove supply chain risks from your setup. In theory, you can remove those risks by buying direct from the company that makes a hardware wallet... but then again, maybe not, especially for smaller hardware wallet companies. In the end, you still have to trust those companies.

Going the SeedSigner route means using an off the shelf Raspberry Pi. There's no supply chain risk because the thing wasn't designed to be a hardware wallet. To be even safer, manually generate your own random seed phrase.

Imagine the attacks thieves and hackers will be attempting to pull off when Bitcoin hits a million.

Yes, there is some alternatives. I looked into these names that you mentioned and it looks way too complicated for average user who wants ready to use, simple product. Yes, it's an option for more tech advanced people, but I guess such people is minority.

We have to start being more honest about who should and shouldn't be doing self custody. This isn't like traditional finance where companies are regulated and funds are insured.

Too often, people learn how to use a gadget instead of learning the basics of Bitcoin. Even in a form like this, it's shocking how many people don't realize their coins aren't in their wallets. I think Bitcoin self custody becomes easier when people understand the basics: Coins are online, on the blockchain. Keys and addresses are in the wallet. If you understand that, something like SeedSigner becomes easier too.

My hope is that eventually ETFs become insured, and those who aren't able or willing to do DIY will go ETF instead. I say this because self custody comes with risks, and many of them are directly related to companies. Not all, but many. Ledger employees have leaked customer names and addresses. Ledger employees have been phished. Now Ledger's authorized resellers have either been hacked or are complicit in theft. The risks of trusting a company are piling up.

[philipma1957]

hmmm looks like trezor will be next.

I shifted some coins about we will see what is next to get stolen.

[Meuserna]

People still use Ledger after they released this product years ago?
Ledger Recovery - Send your (encrypted) recovery phrase to 3rd parties entities

You would be surprised. It doesn't look their growth[1] has been slowed down in anyway since the release of the recovery feature in 2023. Currently at 8 million units sold vs 2M+ from Trezor. Still don't understand why myself.

[1] https://coinlaw.io/how-many-people-work-at-ledger/

The more something goes mainstream, the more it's getting fucked by the people.
I actually think that most Ledger customers believe that the recovery feature is a brilliant idea.
But this is just how homo sapiens roll.
Pointing to the Bell Curve, the ratio isn't favoring the more intelligent humans, so normality seems to be tied to individuals making worse decisions over time. Add Dunning-Kruger to this and there we go.

You're 100% right. That thing is a ticking time bomb. Only a fool would think hackers aren't using AI to reverse engineer Ledger's built-in key extraction API. I believe Ledger users are at risk even if they don't subscribe to that Recover feature.

The things I see people say to defend Ledger Recover make my jaw drop. "It's only active if you enable it." Prove it. The code is closed source. Even Ledger has admitted they can't prove their code has no backdoors.

[Dogedegen]

Edit:
Someone lost $5.2m in this theft after he deposited all of his 80BTC in a ledger wallet he bought from this same reseller in question just one week ago. This is really sad.

I wonder why people are still buying ledger wallets to store their coins at this point in time with all the big crypto theft and hacks that happened this year.

https://x.com/lookonchain/status/2108585005635301427?s=46

This is so sad. I hope that some forum users have more understanding why certain groups of people like to invest with regulated exchanges or ETFs. Just imagine if you were 50 or 60 years old, you read all the stories about self custody and then you invest a large amount into Bitcoin the right way and then this happens to you. The person would really have to love Bitcoin for them to get over this if they had a lot more money, to get back into the game and try again with another hardware wallet. Some people could say wrongly that this is the fault of Ledger, but such things can happen to any hardware wallets that has resellers.  Quite a sad recent few months with so many things going wrong and they are completely different attack ways, some before were with software methods and now this is with a hardware one.

It's another nail on their coffin, not sure the last one as we all have to wait and witness what will happen next with Ledger.

Ledger is so crappy from data breaches, to Ledger Recover (smh with this product), then this Ledger authorized reseller CryptoBilis but maybe more, it's hard to trust Ledger again.

Ledger is not responsible for this, and it can happen to any hardware wallet so please don't spread this kind of bad information.

How can the average user ever trust a hardware wallet at this point and where does it stop? We’re talking about a step that should create extra protection but instead has been compromising it. Heck, how can you even trust wallet apps aren’t skimming your seed phrases too?? Are we forced to go back to generating our own air gapped device paper wallets and forever letting our funds sit there without any interaction?

I don't know what to say to this, we must provide more understanding for people who choose not to self custody instead of blaming them. These situations are making me also think twice about that decision..

[Taskford]

hmmm looks like trezor will be next.

I shifted some coins about we will see what is next to get stolen.

After seeing how Coldcard got compromised, then now we are dealing with issue of Ledger.

Who knows the next will bite the dust is trezor, so best to be prepared with that situation, knowing that maybe the bad actors are actively scanning about what they could able to do to stole huge money from people.

So yeah best to check if they are still doing fine and move those funds when you feel its so risky to hold your funds in that wallet. Nobody expect that this situation will happen early on Ledger, since people are not done yet discussing with incident happened on Coldcard.

[Wind_FURY]

Everyone keeps blaming Ledger for the attack, but everyone didn't notice that the reseller "CryptoBilis" also SELLS OTHER HARDWARE WALLETS, including the Trezor.



   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BitMaxz]

Is this Ledger hardware wallet "safe?

   [~snip~]

If you read my posts in the topic "Show off your hardware wallet", I have already said that I have NEVER used it since the moment that I opened the box.

BUT we probably need to start disassembling our Ledger devices and post pictures to show everyone and ask the technical hardware wizards if their normal/safe.

Here's my Ledger. I believe it's safe?

[~snip~]

[~snip~]

Based on the image, I don't see any suspicious components. Most of the ledgers with impanted have batteries, antennas, small board modules, and SIM cards that look like small ICs or smart cards.
If one of these exists in your ledger, then your wallet is already compromised. However, I couldn't see any from your image. How about the housing or frame?

I'm actually thinking about how the SIM has unlimited data internet?  My mind tells me if I have this, I might use that SIM card for unlimited internet if it exists. What do you think? It's free data lifetime.

[taufik123]

How's this scenario:

• Someone knows you own a hardware wallet (thanks to a data leak).
• Someone breaks into your house and swaps your hardware wallet for a compromised device with esim broadcasting "feature".
• You don't notice anything wrong, and use your hardware wallet.
• The moment you enter your PIN, it's broadcasted to the thief, who has your real hardware wallet and steals your coins.

This kind of scenario is a fairly systematic scenario, we already know how the main flow is,
we have already discussed it, starting from the data leak that occurred and became an early warning that there was something wrong with Ledger and all those affected

Some users have already discussed how to check the integrity of Ledger hardware whether or not it is safe from spy devices, keyloggers and the like.


Image Source: Generate AI

August 14, 2023
GazetaBitcoin explained about how to do a Ledger hardware integrity check that he received from Betnomi and even this was earlier than anyone
and 2 years later found a Ledger Nano X device with an Implant that has been described as a 1st generation Implant
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5461815.msg62694410#msg62694410

Pmalek has also talked about the reverse engineering of the Ledger Nano X hardware implant carried out by Joe Grand, a crypto user from Thailand
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5432116.msg67083679#msg67083679

Alright, that's what it is? Then manufacturers should be able to add a coated later of thick aluminium inside the shell, to prevent cellular signals from exiting in the first place. This would kill the remotely exploitable part.

And please nobody suggest to put all of your money in an iPhone. You can't airgap a phone.

@LoyceV: hopefully thick aluminium layers can solve this, right?

It may be a new type of Ledger with a thick aluminum coating, but there will always be new ways for scammers to modify the implants they will implant on the devices they distribute. Actually, the main problem is that the distribution is carried out even involving an authorized reseller who turns out to be already in the Acquisition, so that they have full access to make the implant and then take it all at once.

Ledger has failed and scammers are one step ahead.

Bitcointalk Forum users are actually one step ahead of anyone else, but the Producers and developers associated with it have never been involved with the community like ours.
underestimate people who remain consistent in their view of the development of crypto technology and how it is used.

hmmm looks like trezor will be next.

I shifted some coins about we will see what is next to get stolen.

WILL THE NEXT CASE TARGET TREZOR OR OTHER HARDWARE WALLETS?
Let's see