A good move or stupid idea?

[Somegory]

I'm really not happy with what I just read this morning or maybe I should? You tell me.
I am using Keystone hardware wallet simply because it has the following features.

1. It's airgapped
2. It has a mechanism that can't be tampered.
3. Firmware can be tested and verified yourself after received from shipping.

Today or maybe last night, the Keystone company decided to put an end to recovery seed control by the owners, here is the message I got from them.



Tell me friends, how does a seedless architecture sounds to you?
Of all the things I've learnt in this forum I can't forget how important having access to my recovery seed really is.

It's something no one should play with.

[pooya87]

The main point of a seed phrase (ie. the mnemonic) is for the users to have a way to recover their money in case the device was damaged or lost or ... if that option is removed, then how are their users supposed to be able to recover their money?

[Hewlet]

Tell me friends, how does a seedless architecture sounds to you?
Of all the things I've learnt in this forum I can't forget how important having access to my recovery seed really is.

If this were to be an optional feature just like Trust wallet does by encouraging users to back up their seed phrase on their google account, it would have made a little sense but completely putting an end to the option of users copying out their seed phrase for wallet recovery when the need arises is a complete NO NO for me.

The recovery seed is not just another wallet feature, it is the only means through which you have control over your funds independent of your device or the company behind your wallet. a seedless architecture though may sound convenient still denies you the form of control that comes with crypto. this plan only succeeds in eliminating any form of self custody.

[Ashawowo(OS)]

.....

I don't know but I think you should check critically if this email is actually from Keystone HW. I've been on their media handles and their official site for a while now trying to find the same message contained here without success. I believe such important shift in operation should be on their verified media channels as well and their website, so I'll advise you to take it with a pinch of salt until they announce it themselves... Remember Don't trust, but verify

If you cannot backup your seeds, then your funds is gone when the hardware wallet ceases to exist/function and the keys aren't yours but theirs since you don't have access to them. #NOT YOUR KEYS NOT YOUR COINS.

[BlackBoss_]

Today or maybe last night, the Keystone company decided to put an end to recovery seed control by the owners, here is the message I got from them.



Tell me friends, how does a seedless architecture sounds to you?

The wallet seed will never leave the chip, that's good but the user never know the seed is quite unique and stupid. I have never known any Bitcoin or cryptocurrency wallet, that does not give private keys or mnemonic seed to users.

With Bitcoin and cryptocurrency, reminders are simple and very similar: It's your key, it's your mnemonic seed, it's your coin.
Another important reminder is always back up your wallet.

Now, Keystore no longer want Keystore users to know about their wallet seed and have ability to back up their wallets. That's speechlessly stupid from the manufacturer and dangerous for users, if you ask my opinion.

[ryzaadit]

Today or maybe last night, the Keystone company decided to put an end to recovery seed control by the owners, here is the message I got from them.

Can't find the article. It's these the blogs/information are being sent specifiq only for you as custome? they not make these public yet?

if that option is removed, then how are their users supposed to be able to recover their money?

I've been searching for "seedless architecture"; they removed the option for recovery backup with 12/24 words, and the replacement could be via:

• Some registers, like emails or social media
• Threshold signature? MPC? like different private keys being merged into several pieces ^[source]

As a matter of fact, Keystone & Unipass made a merger, and in this article: https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/account-labs-emerges-from-unipass-and-keystone-merger-forging-ahead-in-web3-account-abstraction-301829206.html

They created a Seedless wallet by using the social media option as the backup or access without needed some private-key/mnemonic. Still scary, cause these can be more easily compromised.

[Ambatman]

Not worth it when there are other alternatives in the market.
Now imagine them going out of business
The risk isn't worth it.

if that option is removed, then how are their users supposed to be able to recover their money?

Likely by relying on their own their own server which introduce an additional trust assumption.

[FinneysTrueVision]

I couldn’t find this news on their social media either, which makes me think their email provider might have been compromised or it’s a phishing email from a different domain. If their devices really are as tamper resistant as they claim to be, there isn’t a need to switch to something radically different that, in my opinion, is less user friendly. If your device were to stop working how is someone supposed to recover their coins? Even Tangem wallet, which is seedless has backups.

[iBaba]

~~~

I would be worried too for real, the main reason I prefer self custody is that I want to be in control of my own bitcoin and not depending on any company. If I can not recover my wallet or access my recovery seed, I have to think twice before trusting it, what happens if the company stops supporting the wallet or shuts down?
The convenience is good but I don’t think we should sacrifice control over our own money for it.

[Livingleged]

If this were to be an optional feature just like Trust wallet does by encouraging users to back up their seed phrase on their google account, it would have made a little sense but completely putting an end to the option of users copying out their seed phrase for wallet recovery when the need arises is a complete NO NO for me.

That’s also another bad idea from any company and will never make any sense to me in this context, backing up seed on google is total exposure of seed. I think would rather choose not to have the backup feature than to have to have it on google drive or some thing related.

[Sim_card]

If this is true, there's no point using the wallet any more because it's risky and a gateway to lose of funds because being in self custody of your seed phrase is very important in a noncustodial opens source wallet because that's what you can use to access your funds if you don't have access to the wallet. Hardware wallet cannot last forever and it's can stop working any time. If your wallet screen get damage or your SSD card gets corrupt or you forget your pin. It means your funds belongs to keystone.

[Lemonmate]

First I would double check via official Keystone channels e.g. customer support, other than links in that message that it is in fact true, as I could not find such announcement in official communication channels of Keystone. Assuming its true, the big question is if seed based recovery is/will be still an option. I would not rush to upgrade firmware until thats clear. Such seedless wallets might use e.g. server assisted signing or MPC and other techniques, which have different assumptions regarding trust, recovery options etc. than regular seeds.

Make sure you have your recovery phrase backed up (offline of course!) and if Keystone discontinues the possibility to use regular seed, I would consider migrating funds to another device, which gives you sovereign recovery option, ideally a regular hw wallet compatible with BIP39 recovery phrases. Remember to never ever enter your seed in online wallet, even just to check if it works.

[DubemIfedigbo001]

If your wallet screen get damage or your SSD card gets corrupt or you forget your pin. It means your funds belongs to keystone.

If this was the case, then you never had total ownership over those coins, it means the device was already compromised before it was sold to you. How would coins that you held in self-custody belong to Keystone if you lost access to it?

How did they receive the seeds in the first place?

[Charles-Tim]

The main point of a seed phrase (ie. the mnemonic) is for the users to have a way to recover their money in case the device was damaged or lost or ... if that option is removed, then how are their users supposed to be able to recover their money?

It is not the only hardware wallet that have gone for seedless wallet before, the first wallet that I remember that it was introduced was Tangem wallet which we discussed about on this forum.

https://tangem.com/en/learning-hub/post/seedless-wallets/
TANGEM WALLET: An Innovative Seedles Cold Wallet Setup

Their claim is that seed phrase users can be vulnerable to phishing attack.

But I do not like the idea of seedless wallet. At least, it can optional.

I have never known any Bitcoin or cryptocurrency wallet, that does not give private keys or mnemonic seed to users.

All the noncustodial wallets has private key.

They created a Seedless wallet by using the social media option as the backup or access without needed some private-key/mnemonic.

It will have private keys.

It is better you differentiate between seed phrase and private keys. There can be noncustodial wallets that has no seed phrase, but all noncustodial wallets have private keys which is important for making transactions.

[promise444c5]

It sounds like something that would turn them to a custodian instead.. 
If there is no seed phrase, prv keys or any other form of backups , then  the hardware wallet is your one and only hope.

The moment it get damaged or lost, your Bitcoin is gone forever.  I would guess they probably have plans on reviving damaged wallet..  if that’s the case, that won’t still  help if it gets stolen or lost by the owner.

[Cryptmuster]

I tried to find official sources to verify this information but came up empty, neither on the official website nor even on news outlets. So if you have come across this news, please share the link so we can take a look at it too. A seed phrase is a crucial element of every wallet, as it maintains access to your coins. As of now, I am not aware of any other way to regain access to them.

[Sammysmart001]

But I do not like the idea of seedless wallet. At least, it can optional.

Absolutely making it optional it a thing. But also forcing a seedless Systerm on users defeats a whole purpose of having a hardware wallet from the very first place. Like you have made mention that the private keys still exist inside the device. But again if you as the actual owner can’t backup or even view your seed phrase offline, this shows that you are putting 100%of trust in the device in never breaking. Or even for recovery you are trusting a third part server for that. And that is a hacker dream.

As also the golden rule for Bitcoin is Not Your keys not your coins, it will no longer be a true self custody if a company can’t allow you to write your own down offline on metal or paper.

[EarnOnVictor]

Tell me friends, how does a seedless architecture sounds to you?
Of all the things I've learnt in this forum I can't forget how important having access to my recovery seed really is.

Have you confirmed the genuineness of the source of this information? I strongly believe it's not true.

Keystone of all wallets shouldn't lead in this ignoble decision. If this is allowed, how would the users be able to import their address into another wallet? That's a decision that would start weakening crypto possession.

[knowngunman]

The main point of a seed phrase (ie. the mnemonic) is for the users to have a way to recover their money in case the device was damaged or lost or ... if that option is removed, then how are their users supposed to be able to recover their money?

Who knows if they're trying to build something immune to any form of disasters? Even NASA has backup for backup.

I don't know what's the purpose of self custody again if I will have to handle my seed to a supposedly secure chip.

Ashawowo(OS) is right. I can't find anything related to this in their platform. For now, I will advise Op to assume it is a scam trick and if possible should even move his funds to another wallet for now because he's definitely on a watch list.

[KingsDen]

I couldn’t find this news on their social media either, which makes me think their email provider might have been compromised or it’s a phishing email from a different domain. If their devices really are as tamper resistant as they claim to be, there isn’t a need to switch to something radically different that, in my opinion, is less user friendly. If your device were to stop working how is someone supposed to recover their coins? Even Tangem wallet, which is seedless has backups.

I will not be surprised if this turns out to be a high level Seed phrase scam as you have hinted.
This message might be accompanied by another message, telling the user to input their seed phrase in order to enable Keystone to synchronize the keys to the chip.

On a second thought, the mail looks genuine. Scammers will not give you enough time till 2027 to implement anything. The proven strategy of scammers is hastiness. Their timeframe is always short, persuading you to do it within a few hours or lose your funds