Clubchess.net | No KYC PvP Chess with Bitcoin Duels - Free Entry Tournament LIVE

[Agbe]

Op you are welcome. You have introducing a new kind of casino here and I can see different suggestions and questions. And the idea I saw from one of the comments is good for your brand here which the poster said you should create an avenue for testing which is a good idea and I will also contribute on that suggestion that you shall create a kind of registration bonus for users to test the casino how it works. From the test if anyone wins good and want to withdraw, you can introduce a stipend deposit for the gambler to able to withdraw the funds.

And the entry amount of 0.2 mBTC is on the high rate and you have to review it. I don't think you will have much players.

[SilverCryptoBullet]

we never plan to use AI against player. The worst what can happen is me playing against users but i am not that good of a chess player, So i will most probably loose.

I don't think The Cryptovator, I and other people would feel satisfied with your answer. It's your word but with users who deposit money to your casino for playing, they must take care of their money and they must be aware of possible methods for verifying the competitors (other users) in PvP chess game are actual users, not AI bots from the casino. It's a big risk factor that can cost users a lot of money if they actually have to play against AI bots.

It's like Provably Fairness, users must have methods to verify it by themselves. How about that, do you have any guide?

We are fully against any kind of KYC.

That's good if it's not only your words and promise but with your casino operation and time, there will be no KYC used on your casino users.

[Perfectbaby]

Op you are welcome. You have introducing a new kind of casino here and I can see different suggestions and questions. And the idea I saw from one of the comments is good for your brand here which the poster said you should create an avenue for testing which is a good idea and I will also contribute on that suggestion that you shall create a kind of registration bonus for users to test the casino how it works. From the test if anyone wins good and want to withdraw, you can introduce a stipend deposit for the gambler to able to withdraw the funds.

And the entry amount of 0.2 mBTC is on the high rate and you have to review it. I don't think you will have much players.

Better Still if that is not possible op can launched a review campaign with he would pay people to review the site to know how trustworthy the site could be, and let the funds be escrowed with one the well known manager so that they would be that free to make the review without them thinking they will be played by the gambling site.
This alone will increase the exposure of their gambling as more people would have interest to review the site if they have a good paying rate to the applicants.

[Free Market Capitalist]

Well, I haven't played chess in a while, and at first glance, I like this kind of proposal, but after reading the replies in this thread, I feel compelled to address the issue of preventing potential cheating.

we already have bot detection system but cannot guarantee engine-free play. i don't think anyone can guarantee that. i wanted to stay honest from the start so i didn't promise anything like that.

What would stop someone from taking a photo of the board using the AI installed on their phone (ChatGPT, Gemini, etc.) to find out the best move? Would you be able to detect that? I doubt it.

[ClubChess.Net]

high don't think for low stake games like 2,10,50,100 usd range we will have much issues.

Lol, really.
I don't want to sound too critical, and I definitely don't want to discourage you, but you are simply wrong here. You will get abused for even $0.1 forget about $100.
You will either get hammered by chess bots or have no traffic in the first place. Why would someone deposit real money when they know they will get cheated for sure? The friends-and-family scenario is fine, but there are a lot of other platforms out there for that, with better functionality and options.
As a platform, it is also your duty to ensure fair play, and at the moment I don't think you have given us any concrete, fact-based assurance of that. All you have said so far about ensuring fair play is just air.

You also have the social cost on those big platforms for getting caught. Even the suspicion that you could be a cheater will damage your reputation severely. Major online tournaments usually have a standard of two cameras catching the whole game session from each player. One from the front, one filming from the back. If you don't have the proper setup, you can't play.

@ClubChess.Net, what does a decent player have to lose when they cheat for a while on your platform under an unknown username? Bad players will more often tend to cheat, good players put their careers on the line, sponsorships and what not. It doesn't matter whether you are Nakamura or Carlsen, you will have to have the the same setup, meeting all the requirements in order to be able to participate.

Let's assume Carlsen uses your platform and plays with 99% accuracy several games in a row, are you going to kick him? How are you going to detect that it is not a bot, but a close to perfect player? And I tell you, this would require that you yourself are one of the best, you can't just judge by the fact that some player wins too much. If you have sophisticated software running in the background, go certify and present it. Stockfish is open-source and the worst of it all is, there is always a perfect choice in chess regardless of who the other player is. It helps to feed an engine with another player's past moves, but the bots are out there. Everyone can download them and they have been trained for years and years by now.

Edit:

~

we already have bot detection system but cannot guarantee engine-free play. i don't think anyone can guarantee that. i wanted to stay honest from the start so i didn't promise anything like that.

Yes but you have money involved and it will come down to who uses the bots the best way. You can train them whatever way you want and chess doesn't have significant variance in the highest of the highest of the highest percentiles. How would your "bot detector" distinguish an ELO 3000 guy from a well trained bot (not the best one, but one that is taught to make minor mistakes)?

Bot detection doesn't work by analyzing the moves. it works by tracking mouse movements, heatmaps etc, There are lots of other methods to detect bots. Stockfish can't produce mouse movements. and No Bot detector can detect a bot 100%. We also have manual reviews.

There is even ways to cheat in Face to Face chess game

and we just started with the website, you can't expect us to fix industry issues that has been there for a long time overnight and i never promised that we were able to made a full-proof anti-cheat anti-bot system.

[ClubChess.Net]

Well, I haven't played chess in a while, and at first glance, I like this kind of proposal, but after reading the replies in this thread, I feel compelled to address the issue of preventing potential cheating.

we already have bot detection system but cannot guarantee engine-free play. i don't think anyone can guarantee that. i wanted to stay honest from the start so i didn't promise anything like that.

What would stop someone from taking a photo of the board using the AI installed on their phone (ChatGPT, Gemini, etc.) to find out the best move? Would you be able to detect that? I doubt it.

No one can detect that not even with camera turned on.

And the entry amount of 0.2 mBTC is on the high rate and you have to review it.

changed the amount to 0.02 now.

[Free Market Capitalist]

No one can detect that not even with camera turned on.

Well, I wish you luck, but I'm sorry to say I don't see much of a future in this. In poker, for example, RTA is banned, but the poker rooms can only detect it if you have RTA software on the computer you're using to play. As a result, cheaters use a second computer or cell phone to record the game and instantly calculate the optimal move using an app or software. That’s yet another reason why poker is on the decline (though it was already struggling before), unlike what’s happening with sports betting, for example.

[memehunter]

Bot detection doesn't work by analyzing the moves.

Wrong, it is still one of main method to detect cheating specially through retrospective analysis. I know as a matter of  fact that if your moves corresponds to bots moves, your account will be flagged at lichess and chess.com. This will happen even in mid game.

   it works by tracking mouse movements, heatmaps etc, There are lots of other methods to detect bots. Stockfish can't produce mouse movements. and No Bot detector can detect a bot 100%. We also have manual reviews.

So are you tracking mouse movements, heatmaps etc? What systems you have in place? that is the important question I/we are asking and your answer is quite generic, like we have a ai based detection system and manual reviews.   

There is even ways to cheat in Face to Face chess game

Lol, I dont understand the need of this argument. No body is demanding 100% cheating proof environment.

and we just started with the website, you can't expect us to fix industry issues that has been there for a long time overnight and i never promised that we were able to made a full-proof anti-cheat anti-bot system.

Welcome to BITCOINTALK  .

[ClubChess.Net]

Bot detection doesn't work by analyzing the moves.

Wrong, it is still one of main method to detect cheating specially through retrospective analysis. I know as a matter of  fact that if your moves corresponds to bots moves, your account will be flagged at lichess and chess.com. This will happen even in mid game.

  it works by tracking mouse movements, heatmaps etc, There are lots of other methods to detect bots. Stockfish can't produce mouse movements. and No Bot detector can detect a bot 100%. We also have manual reviews.

So are you tracking mouse movements, heatmaps etc? What systems you have in place? that is the important question I/we are asking and your answer is quite generic, like we have a ai based detection system and manual reviews.    

There is even ways to cheat in Face to Face chess game

Lol, I dont understand the need of this argument. No body is demanding 100% cheating proof environment.

and we just started with the website, you can't expect us to fix industry issues that has been there for a long time overnight and i never promised that we were able to made a full-proof anti-cheat anti-bot system.

Welcome to BITCOINTALK  .

yes, we record mouse movements and heatmaps. also we plan to do captcha check mid game also. and we also do stockfish move comparison.

[Accardo]

5+3 minute is quite long and boosts the eligibility for cheating players who are not compatible with chess moves, sound enough, a good player can win against a cheater who isn't fast enough, that's why 3 mins is quite a nice alternative to fight cheaters, but I'm good with 5mins if you can fight cheaters with your bot detecting systems like Chess.com does and returns points to the player who was cheated after a match. I'd consider the tournament today, would be nice if you add bots users could play with at the absence of players.

[ClubChess.Net]

5+3 minute is quite long and boosts the eligibility for cheating players who are not compatible with chess moves, sound enough, a good player can win against a cheater who isn't fast enough, that's why 3 mins is quite a nice alternative to fight cheaters, but I'm good with 5mins if you can fight cheaters with your bot detecting systems like Chess.com does and returns points to the player who was cheated after a match. I'd consider the tournament today, would be nice if you add bots users could play with at the absence of players.

ok, i will consider making the games faster.

[mv1986]

There is even ways to cheat in Face to Face chess game

Lol, I dont understand the need of this argument. No body is demanding 100% cheating proof environment.

He is referring to Niemann and this vibrator thing up his ass... You know what they did? Read up on it, it is quite fun. It went so far that Niemann offered to play naked.

and we just started with the website, you can't expect us to fix industry issues that has been there for a long time overnight and i never promised that we were able to made a full-proof anti-cheat anti-bot system.

Welcome to BITCOINTALK  .

@meme that was a good and true one

@ClubChess.Net just don't get thing wrong here. Just for your information, @memehunter and I were discussing this in private a year ago and we came to the conclusion that there is no damn way to make it safe from cheating when money is involved. The reason these bigger platforms are more or less free of cheating at the top level, is because what I said before: social cost for the cheaters. As soon as they only get flagged, are not even proven cheaters, problems will immediately be real for them.

Just imagine, and you didn't really answer, how would you conduct a manual a review on a real 3000+ ELO player? Mouse movement analytics etc, there is a reason why cameras were introduced on top of everything else these huge platforms have in place.


@Free Market Capitalist, yes in poker it is a problem of course, but cheating in chess is worse if it doesn't get caught. In poker you can have a tournament winning move like AQ vs. AK and your bot tells you to jam because it can't know AK is sitting in the BB. In chess, at the highest level, any single weak move like AQ vs. AK when you are AQ, is 99.99% dead.

Now I am sure you are referring to the poker bot that plays for an indefinite amount of time, with indefinite resources, and it will win in the long run. In chess, I think we both agree, you won't get a lucky session against Magnus Carlsen

[ClubChess.Net]

There is even ways to cheat in Face to Face chess game

Lol, I dont understand the need of this argument. No body is demanding 100% cheating proof environment.

He is referring to Niemann and this vibrator thing up his ass... You know what they did? Read up on it, it is quite fun. It went so far that Niemann offered to play naked.

and we just started with the website, you can't expect us to fix industry issues that has been there for a long time overnight and i never promised that we were able to made a full-proof anti-cheat anti-bot system.

Welcome to BITCOINTALK  .

@meme that was a good and true one

@ClubChess.Net just don't get thing wrong here. Just for your information, @memehunter and I were discussing this in private a year ago and we came to the conclusion that there is no damn way to make it safe from cheating when money is involved. The reason these bigger platforms are more or less free of cheating at the top level, is because what I said before: social cost for the cheaters. As soon as they only get flagged, are not even proven cheaters, problems will immediately be real for them.

Just imagine, and you didn't really answer, how would you conduct a manual a review on a real 3000+ ELO player? Mouse movement analytics etc, there is a reason why cameras were introduced on top of everything else these huge platforms have in place.


@Free Market Capitalist, yes in poker it is a problem of course, but cheating in chess is worse if it doesn't get caught. In poker you can have a tournament winning move like AQ vs. AK and your bot tells you to jam because it can't know AK is sitting in the BB. In chess, at the highest level, any single weak move like AQ vs. AK when you are AQ, is 99.99% dead.

Now I am sure you are referring to the poker bot that plays for an indefinite amount of time, with indefinite resources, and it will win in the long run. In chess, I think we both agree, you won't get a lucky session against Magnus Carlsen

yes, i understand.

[Slow death]

Welcome to the forum. I’m glad you mentioned the absence of KYC and that this is clearly stated on your site. That’s something worth commending, as many people who come to this forum claim "no KYC" just to grab attention, even when that’s not actually the case which has become a real issue. That said, I have a question: why doesn’t your site have any social media presence? Do you intend to acquire customers solely through this forum, rather than promoting your site elsewhere for instance, on Twitter or via casino monitoring platforms like Casino.guru, AskGamblers, or Trustpilot? There are many other such sites where you could list your platform, which would help you reach a larger customer base.

I would also like to know why you included only chess? Do you really think there will be many customers interested in playing chess every single day? I’ve noticed that most people prefer casinos that offer a wide variety of games ideally, platforms that combine casino games with sports betting. This way, users can do everything in one place play various games and place sports bets which encourages them to spend their money exclusively at that one casino. It’s advantageous for the casinos to operate this way. So, why did you choose to offer only chess?

[notblox1]

So house is taking 10% fee if I understand correctly?
That is fine for me, but why would we pay this fee when we can play chess online with BTC rewards, without paying any fee, or less than 10% with escrow?
Bitcoin Chess is a cool idea but I am not sure there will be enough interested people to play this if only bitcoin is accepted.
Someone suggested that you should create tournaments to kick it off, and I agree with that.

[Accardo]

Someone suggested that you should create tournaments to kick it off, and I agree with that.

His tournament just got closed for not hitting the minimum entry of 8 players. Only 3 players applied for reservation.

Op it would be best if you allowed the fight go on anyways. I dont think a forum user has played a single game on the website, canceling the tournament has locked out potential players from accessing the boards and pieces, and getting to know how other problems pointed out on the thread would get resolved. Believe me, the longer it takes before a single game plays on the website the lesser credibility this thread accumulates.

[khaled0111]

It's like Provably Fairness, users must have methods to verify it by themselves. How about that, do you have any guide?

As a user, there is no way to verify that by yourself in such kind of games. All you can do is rely on the casino’s anti-bot system, but no matter how advanced this system is, it won’t guarantee that all bots will be detected, even OP admitted that.
The only way I can think of for a user to be certain he is playing against a real person is to use the invite feature (duel invite) and invite someone he knows to play against.

[Hispo]

So house is taking 10% fee if I understand correctly?
That is fine for me, but why would we pay this fee when we can play chess online with BTC rewards, without paying any fee, or less than 10% with escrow?
Bitcoin Chess is a cool idea but I am not sure there will be enough interested people to play this if only bitcoin is accepted.
Someone suggested that you should create tournaments to kick it off, and I agree with that.

I also believe this service needs to offer more than simply accepting BTC in order to attract Chess enthusiasts on board. 10 percent is quite high when you consider there are other chess platforms which allow people to participate in tournaments for free and with no string attached.

Perhaps if they lowered that fee and started some tournaments here in Bitcointalk, they could eventually accumulate enough volume in order to keep their fee low and sustain this project in the long term.

That is just my personal feeling about this project, I could be wrong though.

[memehunter]

Niemann offered to play naked.

That would be hilarious, two super GMs playing nude hahaha. I am sure this will be reality soon.

  @memehunter and I were discussing this in private a year ago and we came to the conclusion that there is no damn way to make it safe from cheating when money is involved.

And I am still firm on that conclusion. Specially, if you want to remain anonymous.

canceling the tournament has locked out potential players from accessing the boards and pieces..

So true, there could have been Also many valuable feedbacks. There would have been some discussions to get things going. 

All you can do is rely on the casino’s anti-bot system

LOL
If you are not using the invite link, there is no way to know that you are not playing with casino's own bot to take you money. 

Some people are referring it as a casino, which I think is not valid at this point. This strangely fit in this gambling section though hahaha
 

[ClubChess.Net]

Tournament is back on.

also reduced our fee from 10% to 2%