Encrypted Backups of Bitcoin Forum Credentials

[nullius]

Probably, no action is required for most people. If you want to be extra safe, it wouldn't hurt to change your password (mainly just to invalidate all of your sessions).

Ah, but what if I lose the new password?  My password from 2017 is securely backed up.  Backups are trouble.

Here is a handy solution:  I’ll encrypt my new credentials with PGP, and store them in a forum post!  This assures that to log in to the forum, I need access only to my PGP private key.

Code:

-----BEGIN PGP MESSAGE-----
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=l+dr
-----END PGP MESSAGE-----

This post will be edited, if I need to update it with new credentials.


Local rules:

• Do not post any credentials that are not securely encrypted.
• I’ll censor anything that I don’t like.

[nullius]

Reserved for secure backup of my wallet seed phrase and my dox.

[icopress]

In that case, you could also add instructions to the first post on how to store valuable data on the blockchain (for example, if you need to leave a country with strict border controls and censorship, and you cannot carry any data with you in physical form - or even a phone).

This method should work (as would the PGP method, though you’d need to consider how to store the private key). ProtonMail includes PGP (likely the simplest method), so, in all likelihood, all you need to remember is your username and password, plus a 9-digit recovery key for 2FA ... not too difficult, really.

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[nullius]

Thanks for the interesting suggestion.  I’d consider the blockchain for succinct, long-term or permanent information.  However, I would not back up my forum credentials on the blockchain.  It’s the world’s most expensive database, and it’s append-only.  What do I do if I want to change my forum password next year, or maybe next month?

Forum credentials are only good to log in to the forum; if the forum ever goes kaput, the credentials are useless.  Therefore, I think the forum is the logical storage place.

(for example, if you need to leave a country with strict border controls and censorship, and you cannot carry any data with you in physical form - or even a phone).

For this threat model, I recommend splitting a symmetric key m/n with Shamir’s method, and exfiltrating the key shares by a variety of different covert channels, on both electronic and paper media, with steganography and other information-hiding methods, such that:

• Security: The risk is low of any adversary ever recovering at least m shares—or of today’s adversary detecting while you’re in their jurisdiction that you exfiltrate data; and,
• Availability: The risk is low that you fail to keep and reconstruct m shares, without which your precious data are lost forever.

Use that one key to encrypt other data—including PGP private keys, Bitcoin seeds, etc., and everything else.  Use a symmetric cipher in an AEAD mode (AES-256-GCM or Chacha20-Poly1305).  This is post-quantum, simple, and reliable iff you are competent about avoiding the nonce reuse footgun; I’d have other recommendations to use public-key cryptography for this, but it can get complicated.  Simplicity is good, when you may need to rewrite custom software twice (on both sides of the border) first to encrypt, then to recover your data.  Exfiltrate the encrypted bulk data by whatever insecure channels you may have available for this purpose; if someone is able to reach the Bitcoin Forum privately, I guess they can also simply use a storage VPS or other untrusted server.

Risks are never zero in these difficult situations.  How low can the risks go?  I must ask myself, how good am I at hiding things in plain sight?

In the Lauda memorial thread, I wasn’t trying to make the puzzle impossible for humans—to the contrary; yet almost six years later, with nontrivial prize money accumulated, no one has solved it.  I assure you, the answer is so much in plain sight that people would smack their foreheads if they saw it!  If, say, I wanted to cross the Russian border with my coins and with all of my encrypted political writings, would I bet that I can hide information well enough to exfiltrate a 256-bit key?  It is a grave question, not suitable for bragging.

Beyond that, I do not like to discuss such ideas publicly.  But if any dissident in the Russian-language boards has a practical need to bypass border controls somewhere that the guards speak Russian, I’d be happy to discuss this privately.

ProtonMail includes PGP (likely the simplest method), so, in all likelihood, all you need to remember is your username and password, plus a 9-digit recovery key for 2FA ... not too difficult, really.

Proton Mail is not post-quantum for long-term security.  For other reasons also, I don’t recommend them generally.

My current PGP key is also not post-quantum.  I intend to upgrade it soon.  However, it’s fine for storing my current forum login credentials.

[LoyceV]

Ah, but what if I lose the new password?  My password from 2017 is securely backed up.  Backups are trouble.
Here is a handy solution:  I’ll encrypt my new credentials with PGP, and store them in a forum post!

So now your backup comes down to backing up your PGP credentials. Isn't that just moving one problem into another problem? Unless you have it memorized, you'll still need to store it somewhere. And if you can securely store one password, you can just as well store a thousand.

In that case, you could also add instructions to the first post on how to store valuable data on the blockchain (for example, if you need to leave a country with strict border controls and censorship, and you cannot carry any data with you in physical form - or even a phone).

In such a scenario, I'd go back to my risky made-up brainwallet with heavy encryption.

In the Lauda memorial thread, I wasn’t trying to make the puzzle impossible for humans—to the contrary; yet almost six years later, with nontrivial prize money accumulated, no one has solved it.  I assure you, the answer is so much in plain sight that people would smack their foreheads if they saw it!

I'm still hoping for the day you'll reveal the answer (after sweeping the coins of course).

Welcome back!

[satscraper]

I though you’d need to consider how to store the private key).

I store mine on YubiKey 5. In fact, I have three of these dongles, so I have three copies.

The relevant PGP code for doing this is shown in this thread, which describes the way to store sensitive information on digital media.

@nullius, I also use it to store my Bitcointalk credentials, among other things. You seem to be a PGP's OG, so I’d appreciate your opinion on my method for keeping sensitive information.



 

[nullius]

Ah, but what if I lose the new password?  My password from 2017 is securely backed up.  Backups are trouble.
Here is a handy solution:  I’ll encrypt my new credentials with PGP, and store them in a forum post!

So now your backup comes down to backing up your PGP credentials. Isn't that just moving one problem into another problem?

Indeed.  I thought to myself almost exactly those words when I wrote OP.

Encrypted copies of my old Bitcoin Forum password from 29 March 2017 had fanned out through many backups, over the course of almost a decade.  How could I instantly back up a new password, so I don’t lose my account if my computer catches fire an hour after the password change?  This thread reduced that problem to the (hopefully!) solved problem of my PGP key.

In the Lauda memorial thread, I wasn’t trying to make the puzzle impossible for humans—to the contrary...

I'm still hoping for the day you'll reveal the answer (after sweeping the coins of course).

LOL, funny you should say that.  I actually need the money enough that before I “woke up” here, I tried to solve some other puzzles for fast cash.  I mean the think-it-through puzzles, not the computational grinding challenges.  Well, it seems there’s a reason why those puzzles remain unsolved for years.

I said in the puzzle post:

If the puzzle is unsolved for a very long time, [...] I reserve the right to end this by sweeping away the prize.

But, whoops—I didn’t foresee that other people, some completely anonymous, would top it up with >20x the prize that I originally put into it!  Who?  It seems icopress contributed, but I guess probably not all of it?  I even wonder if Lauda secretly watches the thread, wherever she may be, and chips in some more money from time to time.

It’s now mostly money that others gave to the kitty-puzzle.  I don’t want Lauda’s forum-ghost to give me red trust, or even raise a flag on me.

So, I’m still hoping for the day that someone else solves it—and doesn’t reveal the answer.

If you solve the puzzle, I would appreciate if you would post here with appropriate proofs that you’re the one who got it, and contact me to let me know how you figured it out; but please keep the solution private.  Be cruel.  Leave everyone in suspense.  It is a special way of hiding information in plain sight, for those who love their privacy.  😼

Welcome back!

Thanks.

I store mine on YubiKey 5. In fact, I have three of these dongles, so I have three copies.

The relevant PGP code for doing this is shown in this thread, which describes the way to store sensitive information on digital media.

@nullius, I also use it to store my Bitcointalk credentials, among other things. You seem to be a PGP's OG, so I’d appreciate your opinion on my method for keeping sensitive information.

Interesting.  NeuroticFish already raised most of the concerns that came to my mind, and you answered them.  If I think of anything that hasn’t been said, I hope you don’t mind if I bump your thread.

I agree with this:

It is never recommended to store your seed phrases in any form of digital media, not even using PGP encryption.

Mantra.

People tend to have a superstition about these things.  Although there’s sometimes some justification for using old-fashioned methods, it’s ultimately just another tool in your toolbox.

Use the right tool for the job.  For my particular needs, the digital tools that I have are much better than the more tangible tools that I have.  If I cargo-culted a rote rule like “never store seed phrases digitally”, I’d be shooting myself in the foot.

I don’t know much about hardware devices.  It’s partly a matter of availability; there are some open-source USB security keys I’d like to play with, but I can’t find an adequate way to get them anonymously (or even at all).  So, I play to my own strengths:  I’m weak with hardware, but strong in software.  You seem adept with hardware, so you’re also playing to your own strengths.

I have an airgap machine with custom code in the boot process, which obfuscates even how to enter the passphrase to decrypt the disk; an adversary would need to reverse-engineer what I did, before they can even start to attack my long Diceware passphrase stretched with Argon2 on ridiculous settings.  (To be clear, the security by obscurity is for defense-in-depth:  Primary security is the passphrase and the Argon2.)  The machine itself is as generic as possible, obtained as safely as is feasible to me.

I used to buy such things only off-the-shelf in brick-and-mortar stores, only for cash—to foreclose any possibility of targeted shipment interdiction, and to leave no record of what kit I have.  Unfortunately, I’ve had to give up on that as decent supplies have pretty much become online-only.

The airgap machine handles what I think of as master keys, which I then use to help manage things on the online machine.  Sorry, I don’t want to be more specific.

Before post-quantum crypto was standardized, I also wrote on the airgap machine my own homebrew protocol for storing secrets that need long-term security.  I could then export only the post-quantum encrypted copy across the airgap, and upload it somewhere untrusted for off-site backup.  For disaster recovery, I’d need to rely on my ability to rewrite the software.  Nowadays, of course, I would recommend using GnuPG’s PQC, which it has had since 2024.

(Per LoyceV, yes, there needs to be a better way to back up PGP private keys.)

[athanred]

Ah, but what if I lose the new password?

Then, you will start writing as some newbie, and see, how some people are trying to hunt your alt accounts, for absolutely no reason.

It’s the world’s most expensive database, and it’s append-only.

You can always commit some data to r-value of a signature, for no additional cost. Then, it will be committed to your next transaction, whenever it will happen. Or it can be hidden in some unused TapScript branch, even behind OP_RETURN, so it will never be pushed on-chain, but it will still affect address derivation, so it can be later proven to be connected with it.

Another way is mining. You already produced a hash with at least 36 zero bits, so you know some bits can be grinded here and there. Then, you can count, how much space your transactions are taking now, and calculate, how long it would take, to grind things, and save them on-chain, without any additional cost.

Yet another thing is hashing. If you want to store encrypted messages, then you have to write a lot of bytes. However, if you want to just prove, that "you knew X key at Y timestamp", then just committing it to r-value is sufficient, and can be proved later. I think blockchain is more about timestamping, than about pushing actual data, otherwise, we wouldn't have so many pruned nodes.

What do I do if I want to change my forum password next year, or maybe next month?

And what do you do, if Alice owns something, and you want to say, that now these coins belongs to Bob? Well, you append a new information, and the old one is still preserved. That's the current implementation of the mainchain, that the whole history is there.

If you want something less persistent, then you can store it inside Lightning Network or sidechain transactions. They have a nice property, that the whole state is just compressed to the closing channel transaction, or some peg-out. If you have any upper layer, then you automatically gain an ability to discard some history. Which means if committing layer two into layer one brings us these benefits, then maybe committing layer one to layer zero will solve some future problems.

I didn’t foresee that other people, some completely anonymous, would top it up with >20x the prize that I originally put into it!  Who?

The first transaction was made by nullius, the second and third by me, the fourth I can't identify but the fifth (the one you mentioned) was definitely made by vjudeu.

And then, people wonder, why vjudeu didn't write anything for many months.