Bitcoin Forum
December 11, 2016, 10:04:52 AM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.13.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Bitcoin would be perfect for inter-planetary trade  (Read 5794 times)
Sovereign
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 80



View Profile
January 01, 2012, 07:24:41 PM
 #1

It has a very high value-to-weight ratio, thus making transactions much cheaper. It can be transmitted in different ways such as waves or physical data memory, and can survive long periods of time without inflating. In these regards, it beats all other forms of currency. Thoughts?

12uB1LSPrAqeEefLJTDfd6rKsu3KjiFBpa
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
CliffordM
Member
**
Offline Offline

Activity: 95


View Profile
January 01, 2012, 07:28:26 PM
 #2

One problem would be blockchain bifurcation when miners are more than a few light-seconds away.

If miners were say 1 hour apart, you would get substantial forking going on, and although in theory the longest chain would eventually dominate, you might have to wait for quite a few more confirmations.


deego
Donator
Sr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 317


1MCoX64q6ks2Fvx8wybGYonfvEoTPpMhhR


View Profile WWW
January 01, 2012, 09:10:19 PM
 #3

One problem would be blockchain bifurcation when miners are more than a few light-seconds away.

If miners were say 1 hour apart, you would get substantial forking going on, and although in theory the longest chain would eventually dominate, you might have to wait for quite a few more confirmations.




I have always thought that /that's/ where alternative currencies come in, this time with a real purpose rather than a me-too. There could be bitcoin, plutocoin, you-name-it.

At the edges, there could be a flourishing inter-currency trade.

1MCoX64q6ks2Fvx8wybGYonfvEoTPpMhhR
GeniuSxBoY
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 546



View Profile
January 01, 2012, 10:36:09 PM
 #4

If you're more than 100 light years away, chances are I'll be dead by the time you get my funds.


If I know about you and you're more that 100 light years away, chances are you're already dead.
Revalin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 728


165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g


View Profile
January 01, 2012, 11:04:59 PM
 #5

A centralized fiat currency can be traded by wave as well.  If you have a stable bank that can be trusted to manage the currency over long time periods, you just radio in your wire transfers.

Bitcoin eliminates the stable organization requirement, but creates a mining requirement.  Mining in its present form would operate poorly on a solar-system scale, but an altchain with a slower block rate would work OK.  Interstellar latencies would completely kill it, though.  Are you going to wait for 6 confirms at 100 years per block?

I would expect trade at such distances would be performed by barter.  The very slow execution and delivery times eliminate most of the advantages of abstracted currency.

      War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.  --Ambrose Bierce
Bitcoin is the Devil's way of teaching geeks economics.  --Revalin 165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
wareen
Millionaire
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742

bitcoin-austria.at


View Profile
January 01, 2012, 11:31:33 PM
 #6

Bitcoin eliminates the stable organization requirement, but creates a mining requirement.  Mining in its present form would operate poorly on a solar-system scale, but an altchain with a slower block rate would work OK.

Exactly - the habitable zone of stars similar to our sun has a diameter below one light-hour, which would make a 60 minute time between blocks quite practical.

Nice to see people thinking ahead Smiley
Revalin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 728


165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g


View Profile
January 01, 2012, 11:47:36 PM
 #7

You actually want the block rate to be slower than the max latency.  1h blocks with 1h latency wouldn't break completely, but it'd have a very high orphan rate, and worse, a very high "deep orphan" rate where you end up with abandoned chains several blocks high.  It's mitigated some because average latency will be lower than the max latency, but I'd still recommend keeping the block rate several times the max latency.

With a block rate of 4h the orphans would be tolerable.  6 confirms would be 1 day, which is acceptable for money being sent such long distances.  It's not like FedEx delivers next day to Jupiter.

      War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.  --Ambrose Bierce
Bitcoin is the Devil's way of teaching geeks economics.  --Revalin 165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
wareen
Millionaire
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742

bitcoin-austria.at


View Profile
January 02, 2012, 12:23:24 AM
 #8

You actually want the block rate to be slower than the max latency.  1h blocks with 1h latency wouldn't break completely, but it'd have a very high orphan rate, and worse, a very high "deep orphan" rate where you end up with abandoned chains several blocks high.  It's mitigated some because average latency will be lower than the max latency, but I'd still recommend keeping the block rate several times the max latency.
I was in fact thinking of the average distance being much lower, but you're completely right of course.

Anyway, a real problem might be the "planets on opposite side of the star" situation, which prohibits any direct communication for weeks!
Revalin
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 728


165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g


View Profile
January 02, 2012, 12:31:35 AM
 #9

Actually, that's not a problem.  You just reroute the data through a relay that can see both endpoints.  The internet does this all the time.  I'm not sure if the inner planets go into a configuration where one can't see any of the others for an extended period, but if it's a serious problem you just park a relay satellite at Earth's L4 / L5 Lagrange points (about 60 degrees ahead/behind Earth's position), which will guarantee 100% coverage.

      War is God's way of teaching Americans geography.  --Ambrose Bierce
Bitcoin is the Devil's way of teaching geeks economics.  --Revalin 165YUuQUWhBz3d27iXKxRiazQnjEtJNG9g
wareen
Millionaire
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742

bitcoin-austria.at


View Profile
January 02, 2012, 12:46:43 AM
 #10

Actually, that's not a problem.  You just reroute the data through a relay that can see both endpoints.  The internet does this all the time.  I'm not sure if the inner planets go into a configuration where one can't see any of the others for an extended period, but if it's a serious problem you just park a relay satellite at Earth's L4 / L5 Lagrange points (about 60 degrees ahead/behind Earth's position), which will guarantee 100% coverage.
Yes, such a relay network would surely be in place once we're talking interplanetary blockchains Smiley
Would come in handy nowadays as well for the various Mars rovers.
julz
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1092



View Profile
January 02, 2012, 02:23:21 AM
 #11

If you're more than 100 light years away, chances are I'll be dead by the time you get my funds.


If I know about you and you're more that 100 light years away, chances are you're already dead.

sens.org is working on this problem - but unfortunately they don't accept bitcoin donations (I asked)


@electricwings   BM-GtyD5exuDJ2kvEbr41XchkC8x9hPxdFd
paraipan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924


Firstbits: 1pirata


View Profile WWW
January 02, 2012, 02:42:22 AM
 #12

One problem would be blockchain bifurcation when miners are more than a few light-seconds away.

If miners were say 1 hour apart, you would get substantial forking going on, and although in theory the longest chain would eventually dominate, you might have to wait for quite a few more confirmations.




I have always thought that /that's/ where alternative currencies come in, this time with a real purpose rather than a me-too. There could be bitcoin, plutocoin, you-name-it.

At the edges, there could be a flourishing inter-currency trade.


agree with OP, bitcoin will fit perfectly for the purpose and we almost got the communications covered too with quantum physics of course  Grin

BTCitcoin: An Idea Worth Saving - Q&A with bitcoins on rugatu.com - Check my rep
niko
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 742


There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.


View Profile
January 02, 2012, 12:26:36 PM
 #13

One step at a time...  There already are amateur radio satellites in the low-earth orbit.  Perhaps a good first step would be a bitcoin node in the orbit?  I remember someone on this forum already claiming to have mined using a laptop on the commercial air flight.

They're there, in their room.
Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
Gabi
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1050


View Profile
January 02, 2012, 02:16:32 PM
 #14

So Bitcoin would become Terracoin

Then we will have Marscoin and so on

People on Luna can still use Terracoin, since they are only 1 lightsecond apart
BTCurious
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 714


^SEM img of Si wafer edge, scanned 2012-3-12.


View Profile
January 02, 2012, 02:20:54 PM
 #15

agree with OP, bitcoin will fit perfectly for the purpose and we almost got the communications covered too with quantum physics of course  Grin
That just describes secure communication. Like https but better. It's still not faster than light.

paraipan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924


Firstbits: 1pirata


View Profile WWW
January 02, 2012, 03:58:13 PM
 #16

agree with OP, bitcoin will fit perfectly for the purpose and we almost got the communications covered too with quantum physics of course  Grin
That just describes secure communication. Like https but better. It's still not faster than light.

yeah i was sure that someone would say that, and i say we only know that from public information. You can do really awesome stuff with quantum entanglement when you use particles faster than light, saw that on the inter-webs but can't remember exactly where. And yes they are faster, 10 times at least, as stated in that document.

Btw, at present we don't use the full potential of that technology, but in theory quantum comm. would enable someone to establish a link 100 light years away in just a day, for example, and maintain the channel open for whatever amount of time needed. No fiber optics involved only sub-atomic particles that form the "black matter".

BTCitcoin: An Idea Worth Saving - Q&A with bitcoins on rugatu.com - Check my rep
BTCurious
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 714


^SEM img of Si wafer edge, scanned 2012-3-12.


View Profile
January 02, 2012, 06:32:22 PM
 #17

There's a lot of pseudoscience involving faster-than-light, quantum entanglement, and black matter. The currently accepted views, i.e., not pseudoscience-fiction blabla, is that quantum entanglement can not send information faster than light, and faster than light particles don't exist, besides hypothetically.

In other words: Pics or it didn't happen.

jwzguy
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 868



View Profile
January 02, 2012, 06:44:02 PM
 #18

There's a lot of pseudoscience involving faster-than-light, quantum entanglement, and black matter. The currently accepted views, i.e., not pseudoscience-fiction blabla, is that quantum entanglement can not send information faster than light, and faster than light particles don't exist, besides hypothetically.

In other words: Pics or it didn't happen.

Yeah. That's how I'd describe the guys at CERN - "psuedo-scientists."   Cheesy

19wXnWTeGuraN9g5UsMAi119sWzDCQcr7S
Bitcoin Logo shirts!
paraipan
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924


Firstbits: 1pirata


View Profile WWW
January 02, 2012, 07:21:21 PM
 #19

There's a lot of pseudoscience involving faster-than-light, quantum entanglement, and black matter. The currently accepted views, i.e., not pseudoscience-fiction blabla, is that quantum entanglement can not send information faster than light, and faster than light particles don't exist, besides hypothetically.

In other words: Pics or it didn't happen.

Yeah. That's how I'd describe the guys at CERN - "psuedo-scientists."   Cheesy

+1 haha, quantum entanglement is instantaneous, atm humans are working on keeping those separated particles stable, that's all. No "pseudoscience" involved like jwzguy said.

Some ref.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2011/sep/22/faster-than-light-particles-neutrinos

And btw, Einstein set us back a great deal with his "great" theory. Please note that online documentation and the one that Labs have it's very extensive, so i'm only scraping the surface here.

BTCitcoin: An Idea Worth Saving - Q&A with bitcoins on rugatu.com - Check my rep
BTCurious
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 714


^SEM img of Si wafer edge, scanned 2012-3-12.


View Profile
January 02, 2012, 08:10:45 PM
 #20

There's a lot of pseudoscience involving faster-than-light, quantum entanglement, and black matter. The currently accepted views, i.e., not pseudoscience-fiction blabla, is that quantum entanglement can not send information faster than light, and faster than light particles don't exist, besides hypothetically.

In other words: Pics or it didn't happen.

Yeah. That's how I'd describe the guys at CERN - "psuedo-scientists."   Cheesy

+1 haha, quantum entanglement is instantaneous
Yes, quantum entanglement is instantaneous, but what I said was that you can't send information with it faster than light. Let me explain:

You have 2 entangled electrons. Entangled means that if one has spin up, then the other has spin down. Now, you send the electrons away from each other. Then, here on Earth you measure one of the electrons. It turns out to be spin up. Then you know the other one is spin down. The thing is, though, this doesn't send information. You can't force the measurement to come out spin up. If you could force it, then yes, you would send the info of "spin down" to the other electron on Mars. But because it's random, there is no way to send information with it.

atm humans are working on keeping those separated particles stable, that's all.
Yes, the entanglement is lost pretty soon at the moment, which means that if you measure spin up here on Earth, it's not guaranteed to be spin down on Mars anymore.

No "pseudoscience" involved like jwzguy said.
Entanglement is not pseudoscience, definitely not. It's proven and shown time and time again. What I meant was, people refer to entanglement to "justify" their pseudoscientific ideas about faster than light communication.

Ugh, that title ("Faster than light particles found, claim scientists"). It's so wrong :/ The scientists specifically said "We have measured particles that seem to go faster than light. We think we're making some error, but we've checked all that we could think of. Does the scientific community have any ideas we could check, or maybe repeat the experiment somewhere else to see if we get different results?"
Note that they do not claim they found certain faster than light particles, only that it seems that way.
Also, this doesn't really have anything to do with entanglement.

And btw, Einstein set us back a great deal with his "great" theory.
What? What?
You do realize that a large part of science up to now has been building on what Einstein did, right? GPS, for an obvious example, is involved heavily in relativity. The first GPS tests were kilometers off within a day, because the scientists back then didn't think relativity would really have that much of an influence.

Or are you just trying to troll here?

Can you please stop linking to newspapers, and start linking to scientific article sources at least (nature.com or something), or journals, even? Newspapers get the details wrong really often.

Please note that online documentation and the one that Labs have it's very extensive, so i'm only scraping the surface here.
I realize I may have been a bit unclear about what I meant. Let me restate it:

Quantum entanglement: Actual confirmed science. The "effect" is instantaneous. Does not allow information to be sent faster than light, however.
Faster than light neutrinos: Debated, as of yet unclear. People assume there is some error, but because they can't find it yet, the issue becomes more interesting because it may actually uncover new physics.
Faster than light communication: If the neutrinos turn out to be in error, then this is pseudo-science/science fiction.
Dark matter: Actual science. However, not much is know about it, so there are no "uses" for it yet, because it's not clear what "it" is.

A very good explanation of quantummechanics and related topics can be found here: http://lesswrong.com/lw/r5/the_quantum_physics_sequence/
Usually explanations leave you with a "weirded-out" feeling, and tell you to "just accept that that's the way it is". This one actually gives you an intuitive understanding of how and why things work. It's a bit long because of that, because there's some base ground to cover.

Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!