[RFC] æthereum: a turing-complete coin distributed as per bitcoin's blockchain

[thoughtfan]

What about BTC I hold at an exchange? Would I need to move all my BTC to a personal BTC wallet before nucleus?

Yes. The correct way to implement this kind of distribution model is to pick a block number (eg. 290000), and say that bitcoins at that specific block are what gives you aethereum. Otherwise, you can claim some AETH with your BTC, deposit and withdraw from an exchange, claim more AETH, and repeat ad infinitum. For the system to be trust-free and secure, it would have to be based on private key signing, which means that you would have to have them in a personal wallet.

If you don't want to set up a new wallet and deal with different addresses another somewhat technical alternative is to use my pybtctool toolkit to generate a brainwallet and put your money all in the one address just before the nucleus happens. Pybitcointools/pybtctool includes Electrum message signing functionality with the "ecdsa_sign" command; here's an example session:

Code:

vub@shadowcow-200 00:29:41: pybtctool ecdsa_sign hullo `pybtctool sha256 cow`                                                                     
GykcIAXZ3VxuSUfLBi+FCWnvKlEOmo13ysGfVWVfo2cobJhbWhFqMxrxgVB5cnPax+YUJqB1fk9Hkm8bYjoUuBE=
vub@shadowcow-200 00:29:48: pybtctool ecdsa_recover hullo GykcIAXZ3VxuSUfLBi+FCWnvKlEOmo13ysGfVWVfo2cobJhbWhFqMxrxgVB5cnPax+YUJqB1fk9Hkm8bYjoUuBE=
04334ec322ef674d8a91a5467b78cb12fab3de961aa3d6c2d6afd844526e18c8dd12e9b21d5f9411dfa37689c551d2572465f633df73b0d12015aeb72d423e0d30

You can independently verify that 04334... is the public key corresponding to sha256(cow). Then you can easily sign a transaction to move funds back out. It's literally as easy as a command line utility possibly can be. But I personally would recommend for this group to do something similar to what we're doing and release an application which people can send their BTC to (it's client side so no security risk involved) such that the application signs at the appropriate time and then sends the BTC back out. Having easy-to-use tools for doing this kind of signing would really do a lot to help Bitcoin-based issuance models gain wider adoption.

Vitalik, I just noticed nobody responded to your post earlier and want to acknowledge you for contributing your thoughts on this idea despite its potential to undermine your Ethereum project as it stands.

As for asking people who would like to claim their 'spin-off' alt coins (æther or whichever) to actually move their bitcoins I would prefer an option that doesn't require that if it can be done reliably (such as the block-specifying method you propose).  For those with cold storage wallets the private keys of which have never seen the light of day it is (from my limited understanding) less cumbersome to set up a means of temporarily importing a private key to a wipable off-line pc for signing a message to claim the spin-off coins than to require sweeping a wallet then having to generate and create new ones.

[illodin]

Who will be bothered to mine and secure the network if they can get crapload of coins for free?

who will mine after they spent all their fiat on an IPO?

When a lot of coins are given away for free, their value is close to zero. So mining it won't pay the electricity, you're paying fiat to mine it.

When there is an IPO, i.e. people pay for the coins, therefor the value of the coins is higher, and mining it can actually pay for the electricity.

the point is, ppl should mine based on the merits of the tech.  if there is merit, i could argue they'd be more likely to mine aether since their sunk cost is 0 from the free distribution.

Sure, a few enthusiasts will do that. But the large farms won't, so the network hashrate will be very low and susceptible to attacks making it an unsafe investment.

[Peter R]

When a lot of coins are given away for free, their value is close to zero. So mining it won't pay the electricity, you're paying fiat to mine it.

It would be very interesting to see what the fair market value would converge to with a well-executed spin-off.  

Consider building a spin-off clone for NxT.  Right now the market cap of NxT is 0.4% of the bitcoin market cap (and falling due to legitimacy problems related to the initial distribution of coins).  Suddenly, all bitcoin users control the same % of a spin-off clone that is functionally identical to NxT but distributed to the widest potential user base.  

The market price of the clone would be decided by aggregate behaviour of market participants.  But most bitcoin users will be too lazy to bother selling if the price is too low.  They will become holders by default.  Personally, I'd probably sell if the clone traded an order of magnitude higher than NxT, buy a bit more if it traded an order of magnitude lower just for the lulz, and do nothing otherwise.

My bet is that the spin-off would gradually peel away market share from the non-clone until the non-clone collapsed.   The spin-off coin may or may not die (but at a later date) depending on whether the technical innovations are actually useful.

We won't know the answer until we carry out this experiment a few times with a well-executed spin-off.    

[MadCow]

 ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ = Clone æthereum and reverse the distribution.

æthereum princes become ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ paupers, and æthereum paupers become ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ princes.

There are always more paupers than princes.

ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ will be more popular than æthereum

See below for ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ manifesto

˙sʇᴉɹǝɯ uʍo ɹᴉǝɥʇ uo pǝsɐq ǝʇǝdɯoɔ oʇ ɯǝɥʇ sʍollɐ puɐ sƃuᴉʇooɟ lɐnbǝ uo suᴉoɔ-ʇlɐ llɐ sǝɔɐld ʇI  ˙sɹǝdolǝʌǝp uᴉoɔ ʇlɐ ǝʌᴉʇɐʌouuᴉ ƃuᴉpnlɔuᴉ ʎʇᴉunɯɯoɔ ǝɥʇ ɹoɟ ƃuᴉɥʇ pooƃ ɐ sᴉ poɥʇǝɯ uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp sᴉɥʇ ǝʌǝᴉlǝq ǝM

˙suᴉoɔ ɟo dᴉɥsɹǝuʍo lɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ ǝuᴉɯɹǝʇǝp oʇ sʇndʇno ʇuǝdsun s,uᴉoɔʇᴉq ƃuᴉsn ʇᴉ ƃuᴉsɐǝlǝɹ-ǝɹ ʎq ƃuᴉsᴉɯoɹd ǝɹoɯ ǝpɐɯ ǝq uɐɔ uᴉoɔ ʇlɐ ƃuᴉsᴉɯoɹd ʎuɐ uǝɥʇ 'ǝnɹʇ sᴉ ǝsᴉɯǝɹd sᴉɥʇ ɟI  ˙poɥʇǝɯ uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp ɹǝɥʇo ʎuɐ oʇ pǝɹɐdɯoɔ uǝɥʍ 'uᴉɐɥɔʞɔolq uᴉoɔʇᴉq ǝɥʇ uᴉ sʇndʇno ʇuǝdsun ǝɥʇ ɹǝd sɐ pǝʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp ʎlǝǝɹɟ ǝɹɐ suᴉoɔ pǝuᴉɯǝɹd ʎuɐ ɟᴉ ssǝɔɔns ɹǝʇɐǝɹƃ ʎoɾuǝ llᴉʍ uᴉoɔ-ʇlɐ ʎuɐ ʇɐɥʇ ǝʌǝᴉlǝq ǝʍ 'ʇɔɐɟ uI  ˙sǝ⅄

¿uᴉɐɥɔʞɔolq uᴉoɔʇᴉq ǝɥʇ uᴉ sʇndʇno ʇuǝdsun ǝɥʇ oʇ lɐnbǝ uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp uᴉoɔ lɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ uɐ ɥʇᴉʍ pǝsɐǝlǝɹ-ǝɹ ǝq uᴉoɔ-ʇlɐ ʎuɐ ʇ’uplnoƆ  ˙ɐǝpᴉ looɔ ɐ sᴉ sᴉɥʇ 'ʍoM  ˙9Ɩ

 ˙ɹǝdɐԀ-ǝʇᴉɥM-pϛ%ɥsᴉlƃuƎqϛ%/ᴉʞᴉʍ/ᴉʞᴉʍ/ɯnǝɹǝɥʇǝ/ɯoɔ˙qnɥʇᴉƃ//:sdʇʇɥ  :ɹǝdɐd ǝʇᴉɥʍ ƃuᴉʍolloɟ ǝɥʇ oʇ ɹǝɟǝɹ ǝsɐǝld 'suᴉoɔ ɟo uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp lɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ ǝɥʇ ɹoɟ ʇdǝɔxǝ 'ɯnǝɹǝɥʇƎ oʇ lɐɔᴉʇuǝpᴉ ʎllɐuoᴉʇɔunɟ sᴉ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ǝɔuᴉS

 ¿ɹǝdɐd ǝʇᴉɥʍ ɐ ǝɹǝɥʇ sI  ¿ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ʇnoqɐ ǝɹoɯ uɹɐǝl I uɐɔ ǝɹǝɥM  ˙ϛƖ

  ˙(ɹǝdɐd ǝʇᴉɥʍ oʇ ɹǝɟǝɹ) ssǝɔoɹd ƃuᴉuᴉɯ ǝɥʇ ʎq pǝʇɐǝɹɔ ɹǝɥʇæ ɹo 'ǝɹnʇɐuƃᴉs uᴉoɔʇᴉq ɐ ɥʇᴉʍ snǝlɔnu ǝɥʇ ɯoɹɟ pǝɯᴉɐlɔ ɹǝɥʇæ ǝzᴉuƃoɔǝɹ ʎluo llᴉʍ ʞɹoʍʇǝu ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ǝɥ┴  ˙ʎɔɐɹnɔɔɐ snǝlɔnu ʎɟᴉɹǝʌ oʇ ǝɯᴉʇ ʇuǝᴉɔᴉɟɟns ʎʇᴉunɯɯoɔ ǝɥʇ ƃuᴉpᴉʌoɹd ɹǝʇɟɐ snǝlɔnu sᴉɥʇ ɯoɹɟ pǝɥɔunɐl ǝq llᴉʍ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ  ˙ǝɯᴉʇ uodn pǝǝɹƃɐ ǝɥʇ ʇɐ uᴉɐɥɔʞɔolq ǝɥʇ ɟo ʇoɥsdɐus ǝɥʇ ɹǝd sɐ ʎlʇɔɐxǝ sǝssǝɹppɐ uᴉoɔʇᴉq sʇᴉpǝɹɔ snǝlɔnu ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʇ ʎɟᴉɹǝʌ oʇ ǝlqɐ ǝq llᴉʍ ǝuoʎu∀  ˙ǝpoɔ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ǝɥʇ ɟo ʇɹɐd lɐɔᴉʇᴉɹɔ ɐ puɐ uoᴉʇɐɯɹoɟuᴉ ɔᴉlqnd sǝɯoɔǝq snǝlɔnu sᴉɥ┴   ˙ǝɔuɐʌpɐ uᴉ ɹɐɟ ʎʇᴉunɯɯoɔ ǝɥʇ oʇ pǝɥdɐɹƃǝlǝʇ ǝq llᴉʍ ʇɐɥʇ ǝɹnʇnɟ ǝɥʇ uᴉ ʇuᴉod ɐ ʇɐ uᴉɐɥɔʞɔolq ǝɥʇ uᴉ sʇndʇno uᴉoɔʇᴉq ʇuǝdsun ǝɥʇ uo pǝsɐq sᴉ snǝlɔnu ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ǝɥ┴

¿suᴉoɔ s’ǝslǝ ǝuoǝɯos ǝʌoɯǝɹ ɹo 'ɹǝɥʇæ s’ᴉɥsoʇɐS lɐǝʇs oʇ ƃuᴉoƃ ʇou ǝɹ’noʎ ʍouʞ I op ʍoH  ˙ㄣƖ

 ˙ʇuǝᴉlɔ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ǝɥʇ oʇuᴉ ǝɹnʇɐuƃᴉs ƃuᴉʇlnsǝɹ ǝɥʇ ǝʇsɐd puɐ ('˙ɔʇǝ 'ʎɹoɯɹ∀ 'oɟuᴉ˙uᴉɐɥɔʞɔolq '˙ƃ˙ǝ) ɥʇᴉʍ ǝlqɐʇɹoɟɯoɔ ǝɹɐ noʎ ʇǝllɐʍ ɹǝʌǝʇɐɥʍ ƃuᴉsn ʎǝʞ ǝʇɐʌᴉɹd uᴉoɔʇᴉq ɐ ɥʇᴉʍ loɹʇuoɔ ɹnoʎ ɹǝpun ssǝɹppɐ ɹǝɥʇæ uɐ uƃᴉs ʎldɯᴉS  ˙sn ʇsnɹʇ oʇ pǝǝu ou sᴉ ǝɹǝɥ┴

˙sʎǝʞ ǝʇɐʌᴉɹd uᴉoɔʇᴉq ʎɯ ɥʇᴉʍ noʎ ʇsnɹʇ ʇ’uop I ʇnq  ˙ƐƖ

  ˙snǝlɔnu ǝɥʇ ɯoɹɟ ɹǝɥʇæ ɟo uoᴉʇɹod ɹnoʎ ɯᴉɐlɔ oʇ ʇɥƃᴉɹ ɹnoʎ ɟo ʞɹoʍʇǝu ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ǝɥʇ oʇ ɟooɹd ɔᴉɥdɐɹƃoʇdʎɹɔ ǝpᴉʌoɹd llᴉʍ sᴉɥ┴  ˙ʞɹoʍʇǝu ǝɥʇ oʇ uoᴉʇɔɐsuɐɹʇ ǝɥʇ ʇsod puɐ ʇuǝᴉlɔ ɹnoʎ uᴉ ʍopuᴉʍ ”ɹǝɥʇǝɐ ɯᴉɐlɔ“ ǝɥʇ oʇuᴉ ǝɹnʇɐuƃᴉs ǝɥʇ ǝʇsɐԀ  ˙ʎǝʞ ǝʇɐʌᴉɹd uᴉoɔʇᴉq ɐ ɥʇᴉʍ pǝʇᴉpǝɹɔ ʇuɐʍ noʎ ʇɐɥʇ ssǝɹppɐ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ǝɥʇ uƃᴉs ʎldɯᴉs 'ɹǝɥʇæ ɹnoʎ ɯᴉɐlɔ o┴  ˙ssǝɹppɐ pǝʇɐᴉɔossɐ uɐ sɐɥ ʇunoɔɔɐ ɥɔɐƎ  ˙sʇunoɔɔɐ lɐɹǝʌǝs ɹo ǝuo ǝʇɐǝɹɔ uɐɔ noʎ 'ʇuǝᴉlɔ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ ɹnoʎ ƃuᴉs∩

¿ɹǝɥʇæ ʎɯ ɯᴉɐlɔ I llᴉʍ ʎlʇɔɐxǝ ʍoH  ˙ᄅƖ

  ˙ɥʇlɐǝʍ ɟo uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp ʇuǝᴉɔᴉɟɟǝ ǝɹoɯ ɐ uᴉ sʇlnsǝɹ ssǝɔoɹd OԀI ǝɥʇ lǝǝɟ ʎǝɥʇ ɟᴉ ɹǝɥʇǝ ǝsɐɥɔɹnd oʇ ɥsᴉʍ ʎɐɯ ǝldoǝd ɥɔnS  ˙ɹᴉɐɟun ʍoɥǝɯos sᴉ uᴉɐɥɔʞɔolq uᴉoɔʇᴉq ǝɥʇ uᴉ pǝpoɔuǝ ɥʇlɐǝʍ ɟo uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp ǝɥʇ ʇɐɥʇ lǝǝɟ ʎɐɯ ǝldoǝd ǝɯoS ˙noʎ ɹoɟ uoᴉʇsǝnb ʇɐɥʇ ɹǝʍsuɐ ʇouuɐɔ ǝM

¿ǝǝɹɟ ɹoɟ ɹǝɥʇæ ʇǝƃ uɐɔ ʎǝɥʇ ɟᴉ ɹǝɥʇǝ ʎnq ǝuoʎuɐ plnoʍ ʎɥM  ˙ƖƖ

  ˙ǝnlɐʌ uᴉ ǝsɐǝɹɔuᴉ llᴉʍ suᴉoɔ ɹno lnɟssǝɔɔns ǝɹɐ ǝʍ ɟᴉ puɐ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ dolǝʌǝp oʇ ǝnuᴉʇuoɔ uǝɥʇ llᴉʍ ǝM  ˙dɐǝɥɔ ɹoɟ suᴉoɔ ǝsǝɥʇ ʎnq oʇ puǝʇuᴉ ǝʍ 'ʎƃolouɥɔǝʇ sᴉɥʇ ɟo sʇɔǝdsoɹd ɯɹǝʇ-ƃuol ǝɥʇ uᴉ ǝʌǝᴉlǝq ǝʍ ǝɔuᴉS  ˙ǝɔᴉɹd ʍol ɐ ɹoɟ ʇᴉ llǝs puɐ ,,ʎǝuoɯ ǝǝɹɟ,, sɐ ɹǝɥʇæ ɹᴉǝɥʇ ǝʌᴉǝɔɹǝd llᴉʍ sɹǝploɥ uᴉoɔʇᴉq ʇuǝɹɹnɔ ʎuɐɯ ʇɐɥʇ ǝʌǝᴉlǝq ǝM

¿ʞɹoʍ ʇuǝɯdolǝʌǝp ɹnoʎ ɹoɟ ɟlǝsɹnoʎ pɹɐʍǝɹ oʇ ƃuᴉoƃ noʎ ǝɹɐ ʍoɥ uǝɥ┴  ˙0Ɩ

  ˙sʎǝʞ ǝʇɐʌᴉɹd uᴉoɔʇᴉq ƃuᴉpuodsǝɹɹoɔ ǝɥʇ ʎq ǝpɐɯ sǝɹnʇɐuƃᴉs ∀SpƆƎ ɥʇᴉʍ snǝlɔnu ǝɥʇ ɯoɹɟ pǝʌoɯǝɹ ǝq ʎluo uɐɔ ɹǝɥʇæ  ˙uoᴉʇɐǝɹɔ snǝlɔnu ƃuᴉɹnp sʇndʇno uᴉoɔʇᴉq ʇuǝdsun ǝɥʇ oʇ lɐnbǝ ʎlʇɔɐxǝ sᴉ ɹǝɥʇæ ɟo uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp lɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ ǝɥ┴

¿ǝuᴉɯ-ǝɹd ɐ ǝɹǝɥʇ sI  ¿ɟlǝsɹnoʎ ɹoɟ ɹǝɥʇæ ʎuɐ ƃuᴉdǝǝʞ noʎ ǝɹ∀  ˙6

 ˙ɥƃᴉɥ ooʇ sᴉ ǝɔᴉɹd ǝɥʇ slǝǝɟ oɥʍ ɹǝsn uᴉoɔʇᴉq ɹǝɥʇouɐ ɯoɹɟ ǝɹoɯ ǝsɐɥɔɹnd uɐɔ noʎ uǝɥʇ 'ʍol ooʇ sllɐɟ ɹǝɥʇæ ɹoɟ ǝɔᴉɹd ʇǝʞɹɐɯ ǝɥʇ ʞuᴉɥʇ noʎ ɟᴉ 'ʇɔɐɟ uI  ˙oʇ ǝsooɥɔ noʎ ɟᴉ ɹǝɥʇæ noʎ dǝǝʞ oʇ ǝǝɹɟ ǝɹɐ noʎ 'llǝM

˙suᴉoɔ ɟo uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp lɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ ǝlqɐʇᴉnbǝ ǝɹoɯ ɐ puɐ sɹǝsn lɐᴉʇuǝʇod ǝɹoɯ sɐɥ ʇᴉ ǝsnɐɔǝq ǝɹoɯ ɥʇɹoʍ ǝq plnoʍ ɹǝɥʇæ ʇɐɥʇ ǝɯ oʇ sɯǝǝs ʇI  ˙s’uᴉoɔʇᴉq ɟo ʇɐɥʇ %ㄣ˙0 ɹǝʌo dɐɔ ʇǝʞɹɐɯ ɐ sɐɥ ʇxN uǝʌƎ  ¿uoᴉʇɐnlɐʌ ʍol ɐ ɥɔns ʇɐ ɹǝɥʇæ ʎɯ llǝs I plnoʍ ʎɥM  ˙8

  ˙dɐɔ ʇǝʞɹɐɯ uᴉoɔʇᴉq ǝɥʇ ɟo %Ɩ˙0 uɐɥʇ ssǝl ʇɐ ǝpɐɹʇ ʎllɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ oʇ ɹǝɥʇæ ʇɔǝdxǝ ǝM  ˙ɹǝɥʇæ ɹoɟ ʇǝʞɹɐɯ ƃuᴉuoᴉʇɔunɟ ɐ ǝʇɐǝɹɔ oʇ ʎɹɐssǝɔǝu sᴉ sᴉɥʇ ʇɔɐɟ uᴉ puɐ 'sᴉɥʇ ʎlʇɔɐxǝ op oʇ ǝldoǝd lɐɹǝʌǝs ƃuᴉʇɔǝdxǝ ǝɹɐ ǝM

¿ʇᴉ llǝs ʎlǝʇɐᴉpǝɯɯᴉ puɐ ɹǝɥʇæ ǝǝɹɟ ʎɯ ɯᴉɐlɔ oʇ ǝpᴉɔǝp I ɟᴉ ʇɐɥʍ ʇnq  ˙ㄥ

  ˙sǝ⅄

¿ǝǝɹɟ ɹoɟ ɹǝɥʇæ ɯᴉɐlɔ oʇ ǝɯ ʍollɐ sʎǝʞ ǝʇɐʌᴉɹd uᴉoɔʇᴉq ʎɯ ǝɯ ƃuᴉllǝʇ ʎllɐnʇɔɐ ǝɹ’noʎ 'puoɔǝs ɐ ʇᴉɐM  ˙9

  ˙suᴉoɔ ɟo uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp ǝɯɐs ǝɥʇ ɥʇᴉʍ 0 ʎɐp ʇɐ ƃuᴉuuᴉƃǝq ʎq ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ dɐɹʇsʇooq uɐɔ ǝʍ 'sǝɥsɐɹɔ ssǝlʇunoɔ puɐ sɹɐǝʎ ϛ ɹǝɥʇouɐ ƃuᴉpuǝds uɐɥʇ ɹǝɥʇɐɹ  ˙ǝsɐq ɹǝsn ǝɥʇ ssoɹɔɐ suᴉoɔʇᴉq ǝʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp ʎlʇuǝᴉɔᴉɟɟǝ oʇ sʇsoɔ ƃuᴉuᴉɯ ǝlqɐɹǝʌoɔǝɹun ɟo 000'000'009$ puɐ 'sǝɥsɐɹɔ Ɛ 'sɹɐǝʎ ϛ sn uǝʞɐʇ sɐɥ ʇI

  ˙ʎʇᴉunɯɯoɔ ʎɔuǝɹɹnɔoʇdʎɹɔ ǝɥʇ sdlǝɥ puɐ uᴉoɔ ɹno sdlǝɥ ɥʇoq os ƃuᴉop ,,'ɹǝɥʇæ ʎɐʍɐ ǝʌᴉƃ,, oʇ ƃuᴉɥʇou sʇsoɔ ʇᴉ ǝɔuᴉs puɐ 'ʎʇᴉunɯɯoɔ ǝɥʇ ɟo ʇɹoddns ǝɥʇ ɥʇᴉʍ lnɟssǝɔɔns ǝɯoɔǝq ʎluo uɐɔ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ  ˙ssǝɔɔns sʇᴉ ɹoɟ ǝʇɐɔoʌpɐ uɐ ǝɹɐ noʎ ʇɐɥʇ pǝʇɐɹʇsuoɯǝp ǝʌ,noʎ 'suᴉoɔʇᴉq uʍo noʎ ǝsnɐɔǝq  ˙ǝsɐq ɹǝsn ɐ ƃuᴉʇɔɐɹʇʇɐ sᴉ ʎɔuǝɹɹnɔoʇdʎɹɔ ɐ ƃuᴉɥɔunɐl ɟo ʇɹɐd ʇlnɔᴉɟɟᴉp ʇsoɯ ǝɥ┴

¿ƃuᴉɥʇ ǝɯɐs ǝɥʇ ʎllɐɔᴉsɐq sᴉ ʇᴉ ɟᴉ ǝǝɹɟ ɹoɟ ʎɐʍɐ ɹǝɥʇæ ƃuᴉʌᴉƃ sʎnƃ noʎ ǝɹɐ ʎɥM  ¡suᴉoɔʇᴉq lɐǝɹ ƃuᴉpɐɹʇ ʎq OԀI ɯnǝɹǝɥʇƎ ǝɥʇ ƃuᴉɹnp ɹǝɥʇǝ ʎnq oʇ ǝʌɐɥ I ʇnq  ˙ϛ

  ˙ƃuᴉɥʇʎuɐ noʎ ʇsoɔ ʇ,usǝop puɐ pǝzᴉlɐɹʇuǝɔǝp puɐ ssǝlʇsnɹʇ sᴉ ssǝɔoɹd ƃuᴉɯᴉɐlɔ sᴉɥ┴  ˙uoᴉʇɐǝɹɔ snǝlɔnu ɟo ǝɯᴉʇ ǝɥʇ ʇɐ pǝlloɹʇuoɔ noʎ dɐɔ ʇǝʞɹɐɯ uᴉoɔʇᴉq ǝɥʇ ɟo ǝƃɐʇuǝɔɹǝd ǝɥʇ oʇ lɐnbǝ ʎlʇɔɐxǝ ɹǝɥʇæ ɟo ǝƃɐʇuǝɔɹǝd ɐ ɯᴉɐlɔ oʇ sʎǝʞ ǝʇɐʌᴉɹd uᴉoɔʇᴉq ɹnoʎ ǝsn uɐɔ noʎ 'ɹǝsn uᴉoɔʇᴉq ɐ ǝɹɐ noʎ ɟI  ˙ʇuǝɹǝɟɟᴉp sᴉ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ uᴉ suᴉoɔ ɟo uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp lɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ ǝɥ┴

¿ʇuǝɹǝɟɟᴉp ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ sᴉ sʎɐʍ ʇɐɥʍ uI  ˙ㄣ

  ˙ǝpoɔ ǝɔɹnos ǝɯɐs ǝɥʇ uo pǝsɐq ɥʇoq ǝɹɐ ʎǝɥ┴  ˙ɯnǝɹǝɥʇƎ oʇ ʇuǝlɐʌᴉnbǝ ʎllɐuoᴉʇɔunɟ sᴉ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ

¿ɯnǝɹǝɥʇƎ sɐ ǝɯɐs ǝɥʇ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ sᴉ sʎɐʍ ʇɐɥʍ uI  ˙Ɛ

  ˙ǝnbᴉun sᴉ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ 'oN

¿ƃuᴉɥʇ ǝɯɐs ǝɥʇ ʇᴉ sI  ˙ɯnǝɹǝɥʇƎ ǝʞᴉl spunos sᴉɥ┴  ˙ᄅ

  ˙(,,snǝlɔnu ǝɥʇ,, sɐ uʍouʞ ǝɹɐ sʇndʇno ʇuǝdsun ǝsǝɥʇ) ǝɹnʇnɟ ǝɥʇ uᴉ ʇuᴉod uodn-pǝǝɹƃɐ uɐ uo sʇndʇno uᴉoɔʇᴉq ʇuǝdsun ǝɥʇ uo pǝsɐq sᴉ suᴉoɔ ɟo uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp lɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ ǝɥʇ ǝɹǝɥʍ ʎɔuǝɹɹnɔoʇdʎɹɔ ǝʇǝldɯoɔ-ƃuᴉɹn┴ ɐ sᴉ ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ

¿ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ sᴉ ʇɐɥM  ˙Ɩ

:sQ∀Ⅎ

  ˙ɯǝʇsʎs ɯnǝɹǝɥʇƎ ƃuᴉɯoɔdn ǝɥʇ ɟo ǝuolɔ ɐ sᴉ ʎpnʇs ǝsɐɔ ʇsɹᴉɟ ɹnO  ˙ 0˙ᄅㄥ6Ɛ9ϛ=ɔᴉdoʇ¿dɥd˙xǝpuᴉ/ƃɹo˙ʞlɐʇuᴉoɔʇᴉq//:sdʇʇɥ :sǝᴉɔuǝɹɹnɔoʇdʎɹɔ lɐʇuǝɯᴉɹǝdxǝ ɟo ɥɔunɐl ǝɥʇ dɐɹʇsʇooq oʇ poɥʇǝɯ uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp uᴉoɔ ǝʌᴉʇɐʌouuᴉ uɐ ƃuᴉpɹɐƃǝɹ ”sʇuǝɯɯoɔ ɹoɟ ʇsǝnbǝɹ“ ɐ sʇuǝsǝɹdǝɹ ʇsod sᴉɥʇ :SɹƎp∀Ǝɹ O┴ Ǝ┴ON

uᴉɐɥɔʞɔolq uᴉoɔʇᴉq ǝɥʇ uo pǝsɐq uoᴉʇnqᴉɹʇsᴉp uᴉoɔ lɐᴉʇᴉuᴉ ɥʇᴉʍ ʎɔuǝɹɹnɔoʇdʎɹɔ ǝʇǝldɯoɔ-ƃuᴉɹnʇ ɐ :ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ

[Peter R]

ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ = Take æthereum and reverse the distribution.

æthereum princes become ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ paupers, and æthereum paupers become ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ princes.

lol, that's a pretty funny idea.  Make the rich the poor and the poor the rich, release the coin to the wild, and see what happens.  

I bet the paupers immediately try to sell their free coins but no one cares enough to buy them and the coin is dead on arrival. 

[MadCow]

ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ = Take æthereum and reverse the distribution.

æthereum princes become ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ paupers, and æthereum paupers become ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ princes.

lol, that's a pretty funny idea.  Make the rich the poor and the poor the rich, release the coin to the wild, and see what happens. 

I bet the paupers try to sell their free coins but no one cares enough to buy them and the value immediately goes close to zero.

æthereum princes would attempt to buy up all the ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ to preserve their position as the elite in possession of the highest valued assets. The fundamentals of the technology would have been tested already, and the æthereum princes would know ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ was ultimately going to have a larger network effect as there are  more paupers than princes. But many paupers aren't stupid, and wouldn't sell.

I think ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ would be the new Doge

[thoughtfan]

Sure, a few enthusiasts will do that. But the large farms won't, so the network hashrate will be very low and susceptible to attacks making it an unsafe investment.

As Peter implied this is the test that will accelerate the process of separating the wheat from the chaff according to the value perceived in the new alt by cutting out the pump 'n dump element of launching whilst taking out (for how many is yet to be seen) the perceived injustice of premine.

It makes a 'wait and see' policy for bitcoin holders a more reasonable option because there is no fear of missing out on being a low-entry early adopter.  The mad scramble at the launch of something which is seen to have potential is taken out of the equation.  The direction of the movement of price after launch will quickly tell whether more perceive value in the new (or replicated) alt than who consider it not to be bringing anything substantive to the table.  Whilst it does give bitcoin holders more time to decide there will still need to be enough demand in a reasonable amount of time to bring the price up to something that is attractive to miners.

At the same time, depending on how well the first spin-off launches go, like sidechain alts, this could also take everything other than play money out of the traditional alt market thus making that less attractive to miners.

Time alone will tell and one of the reasons I like the whole spin-offs idea is that it is an inexpensive experiment with not much at stake.

I bet the paupers try to sell their free coins but no one cares enough to buy them and the value immediately goes close to zero.

æthereum princes would attempt to buy up all the ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ to preserve their position as the elite in possession of the highest valued assets. The fundamentals of the technology would have been tested already, and the æthereum princes would know ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ was ultimately going to have a larger network effect as there are  more paupers than princes. But many paupers aren't stupid, and wouldn't sell.

I think ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ would be the new Doge

Blessed are the bitcoin poor, for they shall inherit the ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ

Why not give it a 'spin'!

Place your bets ladies and gentlemen! 

[MadCow]

Blessed are the bitcoin poor, for they shall inherit the ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ

Why not give it a 'spin'!

Place your bets ladies and gentlemen! 

The common man always roots for the underDoge!

[YarkoL]

ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ = Clone æthereum and reverse the distribution.

I have 0.0 BTC. Therefore, all ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ that will ever be mined from now on until distant future belongs to me.

[thoughtfan]

ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ = Clone æthereum and reverse the distribution.

I have 0.0 BTC. Therefore, all ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ that will ever be mined from now on until distant future belongs to me.

I will never be as rich as you but I will be nearly as rich as you if I put all my bitcoins in 1 satoshi wallets

[YarkoL]

"Blimey! this redistribution of wealth is trickier than I thought"

[MadCow]

ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ = Clone æthereum and reverse the distribution.

I have 0.0 BTC. Therefore, all ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ that will ever be mined from now on until distant future belongs to me.

Unfortunately, I think you have to have a positive balance in the bitcoin blockchain to be eligible for a positive balance in the æthereum blockchain, and thus, be eligible for coins in the ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ distribution.

I'm not sure what the best method of 'reversing' the distribution would be. One option would be to assemble all the account balances from highest to lowest and then reverse the order of the account numbers. There might be a better way using the actual proportions of the account balances compared to the total supply.

[MadCow]

I will never be as rich as you but I will be nearly as rich as you if I put all my bitcoins in 1 satoshi wallets

The ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ blockchain (codenamed 'underdoge') would be a snapshot of the bitcoin blockchain as of yesterday

[thoughtfan]

I will never be as rich as you but I will be nearly as rich as you if I put all my bitcoins in 1 satoshi wallets

The ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ blockchain (codenamed 'underdoge') would be a snapshot of the bitcoin blockchain as of yesterday

Either way works for me - and I'm not the only one with a substantial number of smaller denomination cold-storage wallets.  You could of course try and ascertain which small denomination wallets belong to larger holders and rank them accordingly but you won't be the first to have tried this.

What I'm saying is by all means give it a go.  It sounds like a fun experiment.  Just don't be kidding yourself, and don't think others will buy into the idea that there is some inherent 'justice' into doing things this way. The Beatitudes are to me the ultimate platitude* but your plan may be almost as ineffective in real life as the biblical claim!

* Sorry, it's a bit poor but I couldn't resist the alliteration after my earlier Beatitude reference.

[GTO911]

Making already rich more rich - SCAM

Stay away people, your hard earned money goes in pockets of bagholders

[cypherdoc]

What about BTC I hold at an exchange? Would I need to move all my BTC to a personal BTC wallet before nucleus?

Yes. The correct way to implement this kind of distribution model is to pick a block number (eg. 290000), and say that bitcoins at that specific block are what gives you aethereum. Otherwise, you can claim some AETH with your BTC, deposit and withdraw from an exchange, claim more AETH, and repeat ad infinitum. For the system to be trust-free and secure, it would have to be based on private key signing, which means that you would have to have them in a personal wallet.

If you don't want to set up a new wallet and deal with different addresses another somewhat technical alternative is to use my pybtctool toolkit to generate a brainwallet and put your money all in the one address just before the nucleus happens. Pybitcointools/pybtctool includes Electrum message signing functionality with the "ecdsa_sign" command; here's an example session:

Code:

vub@shadowcow-200 00:29:41: pybtctool ecdsa_sign hullo `pybtctool sha256 cow`                                                                     
GykcIAXZ3VxuSUfLBi+FCWnvKlEOmo13ysGfVWVfo2cobJhbWhFqMxrxgVB5cnPax+YUJqB1fk9Hkm8bYjoUuBE=
vub@shadowcow-200 00:29:48: pybtctool ecdsa_recover hullo GykcIAXZ3VxuSUfLBi+FCWnvKlEOmo13ysGfVWVfo2cobJhbWhFqMxrxgVB5cnPax+YUJqB1fk9Hkm8bYjoUuBE=
04334ec322ef674d8a91a5467b78cb12fab3de961aa3d6c2d6afd844526e18c8dd12e9b21d5f9411dfa37689c551d2572465f633df73b0d12015aeb72d423e0d30

You can independently verify that 04334... is the public key corresponding to sha256(cow). Then you can easily sign a transaction to move funds back out. It's literally as easy as a command line utility possibly can be. But I personally would recommend for this group to do something similar to what we're doing and release an application which people can send their BTC to (it's client side so no security risk involved) such that the application signs at the appropriate time and then sends the BTC back out. Having easy-to-use tools for doing this kind of signing would really do a lot to help Bitcoin-based issuance models gain wider adoption.

Vitalik, I just noticed nobody responded to your post earlier and want to acknowledge you for contributing your thoughts on this idea despite its potential to undermine your Ethereum project as it stands.

As for asking people who would like to claim their 'spin-off' alt coins (æther or whichever) to actually move their bitcoins I would prefer an option that doesn't require that if it can be done reliably (such as the block-specifying method you propose).  For those with cold storage wallets the private keys of which have never seen the light of day it is (from my limited understanding) less cumbersome to set up a means of temporarily importing a private key to a wipable off-line pc for signing a message to claim the spin-off coins than to require sweeping a wallet then having to generate and create new ones.

use Armory

[Adrian-x]

Blessed are the bitcoin poor, for they shall inherit the ɯnǝɹǝɥʇæ

Why not give it a 'spin'!

Place your bets ladies and gentlemen! 

The common man always roots for the underDoge!

In response to the reverse % distribution it won't necessarily end in failure, it's a valid experiment. I beleve the coins would find they distribute on a normal distribution curve and that distribution curve may look similar to a typically wealth distribution curve.

This experiment would challenge that assumption if the coin was innovative.

[cypherdoc]

Who will be bothered to mine and secure the network if they can get crapload of coins for free?

who will mine after they spent all their fiat on an IPO?

When a lot of coins are given away for free, their value is close to zero. So mining it won't pay the electricity, you're paying fiat to mine it.

When there is an IPO, i.e. people pay for the coins, therefor the value of the coins is higher, and mining it can actually pay for the electricity.

the point is, ppl should mine based on the merits of the tech.  if there is merit, i could argue they'd be more likely to mine aether since their sunk cost is 0 from the free distribution.

Sure, a few enthusiasts will do that. But the large farms won't, so the network hashrate will be very low and susceptible to attacks making it an unsafe investment.

as a miner, i can tell you that all miners don't necessarily mine efficiently.  i mine for speculative reasons; mainly to hold coin for future appreciation even if electricity costs result in losses in the short term.  this strategy has worked out well for me with Bitcoin.  

if aether prices are low and results in low difficulty, fine, i'll just mine more aether than i would otherwise.  but i would only mine if i thought there was merit to aetherium or etherium (they being functionally equivalent).

[CoinHeavy]

This distribution method would give Satoshi control over every market, not just over Bitcoin's market.

[impulse]

This distribution method would give Satoshi control over every market, not just over Bitcoin's market.

I imagine that we could see a wide range of distribution models, including weighted models that adjust for age or difficulty or some other metric.