[RFC] æthereum: a turing-complete coin distributed as per bitcoin's blockchain

[wedar001]

Great idea, this would be the best gen 2 cryptocoin launch thus far!!

I wish you all the best!

[MsCollec]

Whats the ETA

[ranlo]

Whats the ETA

I'm wondering this as well. I just found out about this and I think it's got a great premise.

[smooth]

Biggest problem I see is that Exchanges would have an overwhelming control of said coins.....whenever you are putting money on an exchange they are putting coins in their wallet, then after all your trading they cash you out of the same wallet....at any point in time how much BTC do you think is on all the exchanges all together?  I mean sure I get a little bit cause I own some BTC as well but the winners are exchanges and the filthy rich, good idea but would fail imo due to who would be getting the coins

Exchanges should credit these coins back to your account the way stock brokers credit your account for stock spin offs. Many of today's shady exchanges would not do that of course.

[David Latapie]

6.  Wait a second, you’re actually telling me my bitcoin private keys allow me to claim æther for free?
16.  Wow, this is a cool idea.  Couldn’t any alt-coin be re-released with an initial coin distribution equal to the unspent outputs in the bitcoin blockchain?

This is the sidechain idea. The sidechain is broken in that it encourages "riches just get richers". Plus, if you want to reinforce the position of BTC and kill diversity, use sidechain. People will soon realised that owning Bitcoin gives you more altcoins for free.

A bit like merge-mining. A bit like killing the golden goose.

Or maybe, just maybe, a bit like high-PoS coins. But nothing for sure.

[smooth]

6.  Wait a second, you’re actually telling me my bitcoin private keys allow me to claim æther for free?
16.  Wow, this is a cool idea.  Couldn’t any alt-coin be re-released with an initial coin distribution equal to the unspent outputs in the bitcoin blockchain?

This is the sidechain idea. The sidechain is broken in that it encourages "riches just get richers". Plus, if you want to reinforce the position of BTC and kill diversity, use sidechain. People will soon realised that owning Bitcoin gives you more altcoins for free.

A bit like merge-mining. A bit like killing the golden goose.

Or maybe, just maybe, a bit like high-PoS coins. But nothing for sure.

No, the spin-off idea is slightly different from the side-chain idea in that, at least potentially, once launched a spin-off is completely independent of bitcoin. There could be spin-offs that are merged mined though.

Spin-off main thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=563972.0

[DF_]

Is there another discussion thread for this? Seems to have fizzled here.

[dnaleor]

Is there another discussion thread for this? Seems to have fizzled here.

indeed. With the pre sale of ethereum, this issue is important. I really think the aetherium concept of distribution is very good!

[Zangelbert Bingledack]

Time to rekindle this discussion...if Ethereum every materializes.

[profitofthegods]

Biggest problem I see is that Exchanges would have an overwhelming control of said coins.....whenever you are putting money on an exchange they are putting coins in their wallet, then after all your trading they cash you out of the same wallet....at any point in time how much BTC do you think is on all the exchanges all together?  I mean sure I get a little bit cause I own some BTC as well but the winners are exchanges and the filthy rich, good idea but would fail imo due to who would be getting the coins

I agree - you copy the inequality of Bitcoin's distribution and then compound it by transferring a significant part of the coins held by small-time owners and put them in the hands of the big exchanges and the like; and you do all this just so people can rip off the hard work of the etheruem developers and get a piece of that pie without having to pay for it - your not even talking about adding anything different or unique to the etheruem code, just doing a copy and paste job. All in all, this is very unfair.

[Peter R]

Announcing the æthereum "pre-sale"
Secure your æther today by doing nothing

Q. How do I secure my share of æther?

If you are a bitcoin holder, your share of æther is already secure.  For example, if you control 0.001% of the bitcoin money supply, those same private keys will allow you to claim 0.001% of the initial æther supply.  In general, if you control X% of the bitcoin money supply, you would be able to claim X% if the initial æther.

At the time of launch, Bitcoin and æthereum will effectively share the same Global Ledger.  

Q. How much does it cost to claim my æther?

Nothing.  However, a miner may require a small transaction fee to include your æther claim transaction within a block.  

Q. But I have to buy ether during the Ethereum IPO by trading real bitcoins!  Why are you guys giving æther away for free if it is basically the same thing?

It is easier to understand if you think about bitcoin and æthereum in terms of ledgers rather than coins.

Nothing is being given away because you already control a spot on the ledger.  æthereum is simply a new experimental Turing-complete platform for updating the primary Global Ledger (which is currently the Bitcoin Blockchain).  If the æthereum platform is useful, then the market cap for æther will grow.  If the platform is useless or if Turing-completeness leads to security problems, then the market cap will decline.  In either case, æthereum is a low-risk method to experiment with a new ledger-update technology.    

Q. Wait a second, you’re actually telling me my bitcoin private keys allow me to claim æther for free?

Yes.  

Q. Is there a risk that this project never launches?

Since æthereum is a clone of ethereum, if ethereum fails to launch then æthereum may not launch either.  The Ethereum Team makes it clear that the Ethereum Platform may never be completed or released:  



Q. I am concerned that the Ethereum IPO and pre-sale may be violating SEC regulations regarding solicitation of unregistered securities.  Should I be worried about æthereum?

There is no ætherium IPO or pre-sale.  æthereum is simply a new experimental platform for updating the primary Global Ledger (currently Bitcoin's Blockchain).  

Q.  I am concerned that the launch of Ethereum may be hindered by the NY BitLicenses which prohibit creating, issuing, and administering virtual currency.  Do BitLicences affect æthereum?

Because æthereum uses the "spin-off" technique, virtual currency is never issued by the developers.  All aether is issued directly by a bitcoin user to himself (using the claim process), or by a miner who finds the next block.  As said many times already, æthereum is simply a new experimental platform for updating the primary Global Ledger (currently Bitcoin's Blockchain).  

[dnaleor]

great that this idea will actually be implemented.
If ethereum launches, how will the coin distribution be exactly?
I guess the max number of æTH will be 21 million? At the time of launch there will be exactly the same number as bitcoins in existence?
So... will the block reward be changed or will the timing be changed?

[Bytas]

Ethereum uses a block reward where each year 0,26x ether are added to the monetary base. with x the number of initial coins.

If we start at 21000000 AETH (or whatever the notation is ? :p), that'd be 5,46 million coins per year. Ethereums whitepaper nicely explains how this sum becomes smaller and smaller relative to the monetary base, even though it's a constant.
Problem here is that Not everyone will claim their coins initially, making this system unusable in it's current form for Aethereum.
For example, if only 1 million AETH get claimed in the first year, a 5,46 million addition of coins is an inflation that is unacceptable.

The mining reward is something that needs to be thought about and made clear asap, as it is the only part of aethereum you guys can't realistically fork.

[dnaleor]

Ethereum uses a block reward where each year 0,26x ether are added to the monetary base. with x the number of initial coins.

If we start at 21000000 AETH (or whatever the notation is ? :p), that'd be 5,46 million coins per year. Ethereums whitepaper nicely explains how this sum becomes smaller and smaller relative to the monetary base, even though it's a constant.
Problem here is that Not everyone will claim their coins initially, making this system unusable in it's current form for Aethereum.
For example, if only 1 million AETH get claimed in the first year, a 5,46 million addition of coins is an inflation that is unacceptable.

The mining reward is something that needs to be thought about and made clear asap, as it is the only part of aethereum you guys can't realistically fork.

hmm, yes, you are right...

Maybe just eliminate mining in AETH. Just fix the number of coins in existence at a certain date. I think it's the easiest solution.

[smooth]

Problem here is that Not everyone will claim their coins initially, making this system unusable in it's current form for Aethereum.
For example, if only 1 million AETH get claimed in the first year, a 5,46 million addition of coins is an inflation that is unacceptable.

I disagree.

At worst (if no one ever claims), you have a typical non-premined launch where the outstanding coins start at zero and all the coins come from mining. There will still be a large number coins created quickly in mining, which will be available for use on the network. If there is a shortage of coins, the value will increase, likely spurring more claims.

Mining inflation, as with any coin without a huge premine, is self correcting. At the very start it is enormous (the second block has 100% inflation per-block!), but as the number of coins outstanding increases, the inflation rate naturally falls rapidly.

In reality, the spun off coins already exist at genesis. Whether people claim them or not doesn't matter. People who don't claim are just keeping their coins in cold storage. So the correct base to use in measuring inflation includes the spun-off coins.

TLDR: It is fine to use the same mining rewards. In fact if you don't then the experiment fails to demonstrate anything because you have changed something else besides the initial distribution.

[Peter R]

great that this idea will actually be implemented.
If ethereum launches, how will the coin distribution be exactly?
I guess the max number of æTH will be 21 million? At the time of launch there will be exactly the same number as bitcoins in existence?
So... will the block reward be changed or will the timing be changed?

I think it is best to provide tools and support to interested developers and then let the market decide on which of the finer design decisions is best.  I think Smooth makes some good points in his post above concerning these details.  

DeathAndTaxes has made excellent progress on the UTXO parser for generating the snapshot.bin files for a given block height.  We need to finalize the file format for snapshot.bin and then make this tool public.  Once this is in place, it should be a lot easier to begin launching spin-offs.

I've also just posted 1 BTC towards a bounty for the first successful spin-off that achieves 1% claims, trades on an exchange, and uses the snapshot.bin file format.  Once the first spin-off is successfully launched using a snapshot.bin genesis block, then this will serve as a reference design for creating additional spin-offs (including æthereum this winter when/if their platform is released).  

[dnaleor]

hmmmm, yeah. Maybe you are right.
It's best to just copy all of it and not change anything.

Actually, AET will be better from the start:
there are already 10579594 ETH "in existence" now, and it will go up for sure (not including the coins for investors and the dev team!)
The total number of BTC is now 13054050

so my guess is that AET will be more scarce than ETH when both networks will launch. If people value the "fair emission", 1 ATH should be worth more than 1 ETH right from the start!

edit: I'm already an AET bull before launch, lol  

[Bytas]

Problem here is that Not everyone will claim their coins initially, making this system unusable in it's current form for Aethereum.
For example, if only 1 million AETH get claimed in the first year, a 5,46 million addition of coins is an inflation that is unacceptable.

I disagree.

At worst (if no one ever claims), you have a typical non-premined launch where the outstanding coins start at zero and all the coins come from mining. There will still be a large number coins created quickly in mining, which will be available for use on the network. If there is a shortage of coins, the value will increase, likely spurring more claims.

Mining inflation, as with any coin without a huge premine, is self correcting. At the very start it is enormous (the second block has 100% inflation per-block!), but as the number of coins outstanding increases, the inflation rate naturally falls rapidly.

In reality, the spun off coins already exist at genesis. Whether people claim them or not doesn't matter. People who don't claim are just keeping their coins in cold storage. So the correct base to use in measuring inflation includes the spun-off coins.

TLDR: It is fine to use the same mining rewards. In fact if you don't then the experiment fails to demonstrate anything because you have changed something else besides the initial distribution.

Hmmm, good points there. Didn't look at it like that yet, which i should have. :p

[bubble83]

Announcing the æthereum "pre-sale"
Secure your æther today by doing nothing

Q. How do I secure my share of æther?

If you are a bitcoin holder, your share of æther is already secure.  If you control 0.001% of the bitcoin money supply, those same private keys will allow you to claim 0.001% of the initial æther supply.

  

It's unfair if it requires controlling 0.001% of the bitcoin money supply to claim a share of æther.

0.001% of the bitcoin money supply = 130.54 bitcoins

That means you need $80812 worth of bitcoins in a single address to claim a share of æther!

Do you mean no matter how small a percentage of the bitcoin money supply you hold in an address, you can claim a share of æther equal to that percentage?

If you have 1 sat in a bitcoin address, can you claim a share of æther equal to whatever percentage a sat works out at?

When will you scan the blockchain to get the private keys and percentages for distributing æther?

[U]

so many btc raised.