Save Gox

[edmundedgar]

Save Gox people on Lets Talk Bitcoin.

http://letstalkbitcoin.com/ltb102-savegox-and-the-show-floor/

This whole thing seems very sketchy. There's still no sourcing or substance to their claims about what would happen under liquidation, and they throw in some more unsubstantiated FUD as well, like talking as if the fact that Japan doesn't recognize bitcoins as currency means they'll mysteriously decide they don't have any value.

If somebody really was going to take this thing on their big problem would be trust, and the only way to get it is to be absolutely honest and straightforward. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not seeing that here.

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[freedombit]

Since Gox couldn't be trusted, which exchange can?

If Bitcoin does what it claims, then more than one person knows where the Bitcoin is.

[Nagle]

This whole thing seems very sketchy. There's still no sourcing or substance to their claims about what would happen under liquidation, and they throw in some more unsubstantiated FUD as well, like talking as if the fact that Japan doesn't recognize bitcoins as currency means they'll mysteriously decide they don't have any value.

If somebody really was going to take this thing on their big problem would be trust, and the only way to get it is to be absolutely honest and straightforward. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm not seeing that here.

Yes, that whole "buy Mt. Gox for 1BTC" thing seems sketchy.

With their scheme, they pay off some customers with some of the known assets, pay off other customers with future earnings if any, and get to keep any assets recovered once they're in charge. That's suspicious. Almost as if they know where some of the missing assets are.

It's better to let the bankruptcy trustee and the Tokyo police go to work. With full access to all Mt. Gox records, the block chain, and outside experts, they should be able to find out where the missing assets went. With a little more data, they'll probably have enough to arrest and interrogate Karepeles.

This just had to be an inside job.

[CoinMKT]

The only way to save gox is to return the money that was 'lost' back to its rightful owners. 
Thats pretty much it.  Theres nothing else to trust about the brand.

[janos666]

Any news from these guys (directly from them or indirectly from other surces affecting their possibilities)?

[Bit_Happy]

This is a nice article on Karpeles carelessness:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/21/us-bitcoin-mtgox-karpeles-insight-idUSBREA3K01D20140421

"Karpeles wanted to be liked, three former employees say. He bought lunch for the entire staff and spent thousands of dollars on gadgets and equipment to make the office more "fun" - exercise balls for chairs, beer steins and robots. Late last year, in the middle of increasingly strained times for Mt. Gox, he spent an afternoon putting up a hammock in the recreation room.

But staff found it galling that the boss was buying these goodies even while he refused to give pay raises. They also became frustrated as they waited for Karpeles to authorise decisions or make progress on simple tasks. Developers, stuck without direct access to the Mt. Gox source code, resorted to playing video games, people inside the company at the time say.

Employees were also concerned that Karpeles' tight grip on all company affairs was causing a bottleneck: he was the only person who could access the exchange's bank accounts and bitcoin holdings and resolve requests by traders to cash out."


Criminal or wasteful stupidity?
Looks like both at the same time.

[zero3112]

To bad they can't just proportionally give the 200,000 BTC back to all the Mt. Gox users. This would be like a 25% payout of your balance. Even better some accounts are criminal accounts with no aml information and some users may never redeem there coins so ideally it is possible to get more then 25% of your accounts funds back.

Of course this will never happen they will just use customer funds for their own expense. And the CEO will pay him self over and over again. Any additional funds left over will be wasted on legal fees. It's bad they only give us 5% back but its taking so long it looks like you'll only get 0% back.

[keating]

hope btc venture capitalist save Mt. Gox .
 

[El Cabron]

Since Gox couldn't be trusted, which exchange can?

Bitsimple.com has never had a complaint.

[leopard2]

This is a nice article on Karpeles carelessness:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/21/us-bitcoin-mtgox-karpeles-insight-idUSBREA3K01D20140421

"Karpeles wanted to be liked, three former employees say. He bought lunch for the entire staff and spent thousands of dollars on gadgets and equipment to make the office more "fun" - exercise balls for chairs, beer steins and robots. Late last year, in the middle of increasingly strained times for Mt. Gox, he spent an afternoon putting up a hammock in the recreation room.

But staff found it galling that the boss was buying these goodies even while he refused to give pay raises. They also became frustrated as they waited for Karpeles to authorise decisions or make progress on simple tasks. Developers, stuck without direct access to the Mt. Gox source code, resorted to playing video games, people inside the company at the time say.

Employees were also concerned that Karpeles' tight grip on all company affairs was causing a bottleneck: he was the only person who could access the exchange's bank accounts and bitcoin holdings and resolve requests by traders to cash out."


Criminal or wasteful stupidity?
Looks like both at the same time.

No absolutely not

Massive mental illness. Personality disorder, schizophrenia etc.

MK, the Joker of Bitcoinland

[wtogami]

http://www.coindesk.com/investor-group-optimistic-fight-mt-gox-liquidation/
This was in the media again today with more details of the proposed takeover.

It seems clear that the only way creditors will receive more than the 200k BTC is if the company is generating revenue again or if the assets are sold.  Their considerably large customer database of already AML verified users is worth something to another company if they have the banking licenses to use it effectively.

However the way this investor group proposes to restart Gox seems like a terrible deal for the creditors.

The document suggests that roughly $8m will be needed to fund the rehabilitation, drawing from cash held by Mt. Gox.

Seriously?  The new investors are taking ownership stake and risking none of their own skin entirely at the expense of the creditors?  That is quite absurd.  Do people know what they are signing up for?

This might make sense if the new investors are putting in new money to the tune of $10's of millions.  The currently proposed deal is only upside, which is hardly appropriate.

[odolvlobo]

It seems clear that the only way creditors will receive more than the 200k BTC is if the company is generating revenue again or if the assets are sold.  Their considerably large customer database of already AML verified users is worth something to another company if they have the banking licenses to use it effectively.
However the way this investor group proposes to restart Gox seems like a terrible deal for the creditors.

The document suggests that roughly $8m will be needed to fund the rehabilitation, drawing from cash held by Mt. Gox.

Seriously?  The new investors are taking ownership stake and risking none of their own skin entirely at the expense of the creditors?  That is quite absurd.  Do people know what they are signing up for?
This might make sense if the new investors are putting in new money to the tune of $10's of millions.  The currently proposed deal is only upside, which is hardly appropriate.

I agree. Essentially, creditors are asked to fund a new startup with an uncertain future. There are probably better places to invest your money than a resurrected Mt. Gox.

[edmundedgar]

http://www.coindesk.com/investor-group-optimistic-fight-mt-gox-liquidation/
This was in the media again today with more details of the proposed takeover.

It seems clear that the only way creditors will receive more than the 200k BTC is if the company is generating revenue again or if the assets are sold.  Their considerably large customer database of already AML verified users is worth something to another company if they have the banking licenses to use it effectively.

However the way this investor group proposes to restart Gox seems like a terrible deal for the creditors.

The document suggests that roughly $8m will be needed to fund the rehabilitation, drawing from cash held by Mt. Gox.

Seriously?  The new investors are taking ownership stake and risking none of their own skin entirely at the expense of the creditors?  That is quite absurd.  Do people know what they are signing up for?

This might make sense if the new investors are putting in new money to the tune of $10's of millions.  The currently proposed deal is only upside, which is hardly appropriate.

The other mysterious thing about this is that when they're talking to the community to drum up support for their plan, they talk like all the customer deposits are customer assets, not Gox assets.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqaCNScwpGw&feature=youtu.be

But then if you look at the leaked court filing, it calls for spending JPY 816 million of "cash owned by Mt Gox" building a new exchange:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/219613733/sunlot-holdings-proposed-rehabilitation-plan-ENGLISH

It sounds like they'll now submit a new plan, since the court's reply to their original one was "lol", but looking at their original intentions, it seems like either:
a) They were going to intentionally misappropriate customer assets to fund their new exchange.
b) They're lying to the community about how they see the status of their deposits.

[mastor_blastor]

It seems to me like this whole thing, as it relates to people who had fiat or coins in gox, comes down to:

Choice #1:
Support this and get 23% of what you had, but not be able to move it out of gox for 1 year.
You can get paid back for the rest of the loss over time if this exchange does well.

Choice #2:
Don't support this, liquidation will happen.  You will get (at current exchange rates) about 27.5% of what you had.
Lawyers fees and any other debts gox had that we don't' know about could reduce the 27.5% number..

[Bit_Happy]

This is a nice article on Karpeles carelessness:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/21/us-bitcoin-mtgox-karpeles-insight-idUSBREA3K01D20140421

"Karpeles wanted to be liked, three former employees say. He bought lunch for the entire staff and spent thousands of dollars on gadgets and equipment to make the office more "fun" - exercise balls for chairs, beer steins and robots. Late last year, in the middle of increasingly strained times for Mt. Gox, he spent an afternoon putting up a hammock in the recreation room.

But staff found it galling that the boss was buying these goodies even while he refused to give pay raises. They also became frustrated as they waited for Karpeles to authorise decisions or make progress on simple tasks. Developers, stuck without direct access to the Mt. Gox source code, resorted to playing video games, people inside the company at the time say.

Employees were also concerned that Karpeles' tight grip on all company affairs was causing a bottleneck: he was the only person who could access the exchange's bank accounts and bitcoin holdings and resolve requests by traders to cash out."


Criminal or wasteful stupidity?
Looks like both at the same time.

No absolutely not

Massive mental illness. Personality disorder, schizophrenia etc.

MK, the Joker of Bitcoinland

"Mental illness" is not an excuse for crime.
People are still responsible for their actions.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

This is a nice article on Karpeles carelessness:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/21/us-bitcoin-mtgox-karpeles-insight-idUSBREA3K01D20140421

Nice read, thanks. That's the problem with trusting a company. How do you know the owner isn't completely nuts?

You should have know he was in 2011 when he went around this forum claiming his customers were terrorist and money launders for following the instructions Mark gave himself.

Yeah, guess that's true. We all should have seen it coming but hindsight is 20-20.

i was trying to warn people.

I remember Goat. You tried to warn people as early as the end of 2011 about Gox at the same time I was warning people about pirate. We should have listened to each other.  

Is this only a twosome, or can I turn this convo into a ménage à trois? Talking-about-old-times speaking, that is.

Speaking of old times and speakeasies, do you, two, remember this thread? https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=39476 ? Do you recall the fall guy's name? Do you recall the allegations directed at said fall guy, hence his leaving on his own accord?

Fast forward to what I penned ~18 hours ago:

<snip: minor rant about being banned>

But, at least I got to do some reading while on hiatus.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080117004139/http://radaronline.com/from-the-magazine/2007/11/den_chads_world_marc_collins_rector_1.php

One of the alleged victims was identified as Mike E. The slim, dark-haired 14-year-old, who attended a small private high school in the Valley, befriended Chad's brother Scott, who led him to DEN. Mike had an interest in acting, so when Collins-Rector outlined the possibilities for stardom offered by the site, the boy began spending time at the mansion, where there was one key rule. He recalls: "If you were going to sleep over, you had to get into either the pool or the hot tub—and you had to be naked to do so." In an exclusive interview, Mike E. confirms having been forced to engage in anal and oral intercourse with Collins-Rector, Shackley, and Pierce while under the influence of drugs that he claims were fed to him without his knowledge. At the same time, he says, Collins-Rector and Shackley were pushing him to become a legally emancipated minor. Although Ronald Palmieri, Collins-Rector's lawyer at the time, dismisses the allegations, saying, "There was never any such discussion that I know of," Radar has obtained correspondence sent by Shackley to Palmieri's law office requesting an update on the status of Mike E.'s emancipation filing.

Here's a story from the same source, but one had to be redacted due to a lawyer's request. Thankfully, The Way Back Machine archived the original. I suggest reading/comparing both to get the full picture.

Editor’s Note: At the request of Brock Pierce’s attorneys, this article has been edited to remove three passages summarizing portions of the now-sealed complaint. Although the complaint was filed June 11 and publicly available for more than three months before Pierce’s attorneys had it sealed, it was eventually sealed, and they have provided an order signed by the judge that establishes this.

http://virtuallyblind.com/2008/01/30/ige-pierce-debonneville-complaint/
http://web.archive.org/web/20080202014535/http://virtuallyblind.com/2008/01/30/ige-pierce-debonneville-complaint/

For those into not-so-light-reading, I suggest: The Decline and Fall of an Ultra Rich Online Gaming Empire

Pierce was 19 at the time and hardly the first young American male to step away from the sometimes painful light of reality for an extended, free-falling obsession with an online fantasy videogame. But it’s safe to say that the reality he was shrinking from in 2000 was not that of a typical teen. At 16, Pierce had retired from a career as a modestly successful Hollywood child actor; by 18 he was a dazzlingly successful dotcom entrepreneur, living large on a $250,000 executive salary and the promise of millions more in post-IPO equity. By his 19th birthday he had lost it all. Pierce’s high-profile startup had flamed out in a blaze of scandal that included accusations of sex with minors, and he and his cofounders had found it prudent to leave the US. He lived now in a rented house in a strange country, on the dwindling remains of a crash-ravaged stock portfolio.

All the above is on the heels of what was in the news yesterday: Man accusing 'X-Men' director of sex abuse sues more Hollywood execs

Luckily for those who love Bitcoin, like my self, names mentioned in the articles I linked above are trying to save our beloved Mt Gox: U.S. investor says creditors support Mt. Gox buyout

According to three people close to the matter, Sunlot, which is led by bitcoin entrepreneur Brock Pierce and includes venture capitalists Matthew Roszak and William Quigley, has agreed to buy a 12% stake in Mt. Gox from founder Jed McCaleb, who sold the rest of the exchange to Chief Executive Mark Karpelès in 2011.

Unfortunately, I feel that 1 BTC is too small an offer, thus I propose we double it to 2 BTC. Yes, it's a lot of money, but I further propose we amass the funds via a Group Buy. I further propose that we put Mt Gox in reliable hands (below) and move it to some other city like Pattaya, whereupon the results would be the same, but at least we'll get more entertainment value outta the endeavor.



<snip: major rant about the 1,132 BTC that was stolen from via by Paymium/InstaWallet/InstaWire/Paytunia/Bitcoin-Central/et al.>

~Bruno Kucinskas

http://web.archive.org/web/20080202014535/http://virtuallyblind.com/2008/01/30/ige-pierce-debonneville-complaint/

The fifty-seven page Complaint alleges that Pierce “has taken advantage of Debonneville on numerous occasions including … stealing shares that should have been given to Debonneville, denying Debonneville the right to sell his stock, and excluding Debonneville from a $20,000,000 stock sale which benefited only Pierce.”

In essence, this is what the Mt Gox deal consist of:

Mt Gox, once a fantasy trading card company turn crypto-currency stock exchange, will be handed over for the large sum of 1 BTC (~$500 USD at this penning) to an entity that once traded virtually currencies but, when it folded, one of its main stockholders was left with nothing even though he ran the biz while the main dude was residing behind bars addressing paedo- allegations in a country known for Running of the Bulls. (trust me, it gets better)

The new entity overseeing Mt Gox promises to make its customers as whole as possible provided they pay for the service, and we know their promise will be good, for if you visit the last link above, you'll witness first-hand this to be true.

Meanwhile, The Mighty Ducks actor has a vested interest in KnC who, BTW, is happily mining away on ~7,000 bitcoin miners, of which their customer base are not happy campers once that was revealed.

Question: What does a guy named John Betts (interesting name, you think?) smoke so that he believes Mt Gox can be revived and turn a profit with an alleged paedo- at the helm, when the last Bitcoiner, justly or unjustly, accused of such is no longer around due to fellow bitcoiners no longer wanting to deal with him?

There's a helluva lot more I could add to all the above, but I'll simply stop right here so that those who took, or are still taking the slow bus to school can absorb what's been expressed to date.

~Bruno Kucinskas

PS: When the smoke settles, perhaps Mark Karpeles could reunite with his ex-roomie, whereupon he'll hold doors open for him once again.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I might as well add this, for I just found it after several attempts: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:RYF8vkh-UIoJ:www.bannerwitcoff.com/patentarcade/docs/DebonnevillePierceAmendedComplaint.pdf+&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (Google cache oppose to PDF)

II. PARTIES

2. Alan Debonneville is a Swiss citizen domiciled in Hong Kong, China.

3. Brock Pierce is an individual who resides in California may be served at 8010 Oceanus Drive, Los Angeles, CA 90046-2047.

4. This is a case in which one of the two founders of a company which was valued at over $220,000,000.00 is now suing the other founder due to, among other things, numerous breaches of fiduciary duty, breaches of contract, and fraud.

5. For almost 5 years, Debonneville has dedicated his entire life to the creation, development, and success of IGE US, LLC (“IGE”). IGE’s meteoric rise from an under funded startup to the market leader culminated in a Goldman-Sachs investment of $60,000,000, which set the value of IGE at the time of $220,000,000. Where Pierce has always been the public face of IGE, Debonneville has been the tireless working founder, responsible for the expansion and operation of the company. Pierce has taken advantage of Debonneville on numerous occasions including:

1. Stealing shares of IGE which should have been given to Debonneville;
2. Denying Debonneville the right to sell his stock; and
3. Excluding Debonneville from participating in a $20,000,000 stock sale which benefited only Pierce.

These are but a few of the actions for which Debonneville now brings suit.

Feel free to read all 20 pages of the complaint, for it's an interesting read, paying close attention when you toward the end, i.e...

82. In a few weeks, Debonneville heard through the grapevine that Yantis was in fact back to working for IGE. Debonneville contacted Pierce regarding the terms between IGE and Yantis and was advised that Yantis had been given the entire trading arm of IGE, and Yantis paid no consideration other than a 5% royalty in return. Considering the low price paid by Yantis, it is entirely possible that Pierce did reach a side deal with Yantis, just as Yantis had previously said Pierce would.

In case you forgot where you've seen that Yantis name before, allow me to remind you...

http://news.idg.no/cw/art.cfm?id=886929F6-0D1B-0385-6B9A8A97D17C38B1

The site cites as its backers Bitcoin investor Brock Pierce, entrepreneur Jonathan Yantis, venture capitalists William Quigley and Matthew Roszak, and John Betts, described as a Wall Street veteran. Earlier this months, reports said the consortium was offering 1 bitcoin (roughly US$490 at current prices) to buy Mt. Gox.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I couldn't help but notice that nobody with a spine has weighed in on this subject probably because they don't want to be attached to chiming in on the wrong side of the fence bearing Brock Pierce's name.

If you recall the perks that Mark Karpeles doled out during his tenure at Mt Gox, you're going to love this next tidbit: http://www.lewterslounge.com/2008/01/rise-and-fall-of-ige.html

Internal management problems and inappropriate use of funds:

Management seemed to be a problem as the most competent executives, Yantis, Alan and Randy had left the company. Brock Pierce was called incompetent. Even though the company was facing tough times and owed millions to gold farmers, Pierce was said to travel by private jet.

Again, feel free to read the entire fascinating article.

[Nagle]

From the Sunlot proposal:

"Sunlot Holdings Limited is a special-purpose investment vehicle registered in Republic of Cyprus".

Not a good sign.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

From the Sunlot proposal:

"Sunlot Holdings Limited is a special-purpose investment vehicle registered in Republic of Cyprus".

Not a good sign.

Did I give you permission to read ahead?  

Here's a video where William Quigley expresses how he's put together a great team to oversee the new Mt Gox: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4k9UCRbGD4Y

For those asking themselves if William Quigley ever worked for Disney like Brock Pierce has, the answer is yes.

To put this thread in context, if Hal Finney is Satoshi Nakamoto and is reading this thread, Mrs. Finney is currently having a very difficult time reading his eye movements to get a bearing as to what Hal's saying/thinking.