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moravian
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April 18, 2014, 10:19:50 AM
 #1

I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase.

I think potential big increase in value of bitcoin is not good for anyone.
It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable.
Less spending = less economic activity.
People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable.
Less work = less economic activity.
People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast?
Less investments = less economic activity.

I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse.
And also early adopters would get too rich, while all the later adopters would be in very bad position.

I really desire, if it ever becomes mainstream, that it grows VERY SLOWLY.
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moravian
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April 18, 2014, 10:36:03 AM
 #2

Hey, it wasn't meant as an attack on you. If I had bitcoin, i would also want it to rise. It's natural.
I wanted to buy it at some point.
But maybe I would have second thoughts and also feel a bit bad about it.
I am just afraid if bitcoin can really destabilize economy?
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April 18, 2014, 10:54:24 AM
 #3

You have hit the nail on the head.

Lust for personal gain is very quick to dilute any altruistic or higher libertarian values that might have swayed the very earliest of adopters into investing a bit of money into Bitcoin.

As for Bitcoin destabilising the economy. It is a too small. It is a flea on a donkeys back. However, it can and it will be used in the future as a means of capital flight, so it will help destabilise someone's economy, and the parasites crawling over the flea on the donkeys back might reap massive profits if they are riding Bitcoin at the right time and know when to jump off.


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April 18, 2014, 11:14:26 AM
 #4

There is nothing immoral about wanting to make money.

Many people here are not simply investing in Bitcoin because they want to make a quick-buck like penny stocks.  Rather, Bitcoin investors help support their investments by building businesses around Bitcoin and raising awareness. 

If you think these forums are bad, don't watch the Wolf of Wall Street.
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April 18, 2014, 11:31:20 AM
 #5

To clarify, I am not one of those "who want so much that it goes to the moon", I am more curious about the "Game Theory" aspects of cryptocurriencies


It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable.
Less spending = less economic activity.

Why would that be a bad thing? Considering that our current economic activity isn't really sustainable.

People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable.
Less work = less economic activity.

You seem to think that people are only working to get money, which I think is not the truth. People often have to choose a work which pays more but isn't exactly what they would like to do. Wouldn't it be nice if you could purse your passion and do something that is of value to society instead of working for minimum wage just to survive? The reward would be first and foremost on an emotional level which (imho) is a much more important factor for health and happiness than money could ever be.

People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast?
Less investments = less economic activity.

Maybe the factors that influence the decision to invest into a company will change. For example, a company that is focused on making life on earth more sustainable could be a great investment. On the contrary, parasitically companies who are just focused on profits may get less investment funds.

I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse.

Maybe, maybe not. What makes you think that our current economy isn't heading for collapse anyway?

And also early adopters would get too rich, while all the later adopters would be in very bad position.

If Bitcoin is truly deflationary, late adopters may join at a time in Bitcoins history where growth will happen in a very slow manner, which is what you seem to suggest should be happening right now.
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April 18, 2014, 11:34:44 AM
 #6

I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase.

I think potential big increase in value of bitcoin is not good for anyone.
It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable.
Less spending = less economic activity.
People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable.
Less work = less economic activity.
People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast?
Less investments = less economic activity.

I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse.
And also early adopters would get too rich, while all the later adopters would be in very bad position.

I really desire, if it ever becomes mainstream, that it grows VERY SLOWLY.


Even if you earned $100 per hour tax free you'd have to work for nearly 5 years of 40-hour work weeks to gain even $1 million. Now, how many people even earn more than $25 per hour? And how much tax do they pay for that?

The problem with working hard is that the only one who truly benefits from your hard work is the CEO of the company you work hard for.

I rather work smart and cheat the system that tries to cheat me. And I'll make sure that once I am rich enough for my liking, the people i love and care about do not have to work (read: be enslaved) ever again. (In a legal way though).

That's not to say I will not work and do not want my friends and family to work. It's just that we will choose when and what we do, rather than have a 'boss' decide. We're human people, we don't have bosses, we're not dogs.

By the way the problems you describe are actually a result of the greed based capitalist system and well happen with any currency, arguably even moreso with fiat. Because the richest people in this world do not really work. They have their money work for them or they have people work for them or both. Mostly banks and super corporations.

With a gold or silver or bitcoin based system, once you spent your bitcoins you can not magically create new ones (you could mine them, but that's not the same thing, mining takes effort and costs money as well). With fiat some people can just print more money or 'type it into existence' by making a loan. This creates a massive unbalance in the world.

If for example person A has 100 bitcoins and person B has 1 bitcoin and person C has 0 bitcoin but has an apple garden. He'd just sell some apples for bitcoin and person A and B will lose bitcoins because they want apples.

Now eventually because C has a constant supply of apples, he'll get a steady income in bitcoin and if A and B do nothing to gain more bitcoins, they'll eventually have none left and person C would now have 101 bitcoins and all of the apples.

So, sitting on your bud doing nothing will eventually make you poor in a world were bitcoin is common.

Of course when you buy bitcoin now before they are expensive you could have a stash big enough to last you a lifetime. If we assume they'll become globally accepted currency someday.
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April 18, 2014, 12:25:40 PM
Merited by Foxpup (3)
 #7

I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase.

The essential word here is "if". It's not a sure thing. So people take a substantial risk when buying bitcoin. Other people do not want to take this risk. So I think it's well deserved wealth in case the bitcoin buyers are right with their assumptions.

Your deeply held belief that only hard work leads to wealth is also severely flawed. There are millions or even billions of people that work hard every day but will never be rich. The simple reason: They are slaves of economy and they prefer the illusion of acceptable economic security that their job seems to offer over taking a personal risk to fundamentally improve their situation (of cause this can be extremely hard in many cases).


ya.ya.yo!





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moravian
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April 18, 2014, 12:46:14 PM
 #8

Thanks for your replies.

When i said you need to work hard to earn money, I didn't necessarily mean holding a standard 9 to 5 job and being exploited by a company.
But actually doing something, creating some value. Being active.
You can do this when you have your own company as well. But all the companies create some value, some product that some people will use.
With philosophy of holding bitcoins, you create nothing, and potentially earn enormous sum of money.
And of course there is a lot of risk involved in it. But a lot of people speak of logarithmic charts and long term trends, and take huge future increase for granted. For them it's not about if, but when. I don't understand this feeling of being entitled to increase your wealth by, say, 100 or 1000 times in few years, by doing nothing and just holding bitcoin.

If such an attitude becomes too widespread, I'm afraid it can affect economy negatively.
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April 18, 2014, 12:51:16 PM
 #9

With philosophy of holding bitcoins, you create nothing, and potentially earn enormous sum of money.

You miss some crucial part, so all of your conclusions are wrong. To hold bitcoins, you must either a. mine them and support network operations or b. buy them and support businesses and tech developments with your money.  So no, it is not free, you support the project, its network, and its development *directly*. You put your trust and your money into it, risking it would all go to zero. If it succeeds, you are rewarded. But nothing is free. Risk is not free.

i am satoshi
moravian
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April 18, 2014, 12:57:14 PM
 #10

Maybe. Supporting the technologies and companies that are connected to it is maybe the most appealing part of it for me.
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April 18, 2014, 01:00:33 PM
 #11

With philosophy of holding bitcoins, you create nothing, and potentially earn enormous sum of money.

You miss some crucial part, so all of your conclusions are wrong. To hold bitcoins, you must either a. mine them and support network operations or b. buy them and support businesses and tech developments with your money.  So no, it is not free, you support the project, its network, and its development *directly*. You put your trust and your money into it, risking it would all go to zero. If it succeeds, you are rewarded. But nothing is free. Risk is not free.

Yeah that's the point. If you buy bitcoin with US$, you probably have worked already to obtain US$ in the first place. And you hand that fiat over to some miners thereby supporting their business.

ya.ya.yo!





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April 18, 2014, 01:00:50 PM
 #12

I don't really understand you folks. Why you want so much that it goes to the moon? If I had bitcoins I wouldn't feel this way. If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward. My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase.

I think potential big increase in value of bitcoin is not good for anyone.
It's not good for economy, because people would spend less, hoping their bitcoins would become even more valuable.
Less spending = less economic activity.
People would also work less. Why work, if you can just do nothing and watch your bitcoins become more valuable.
Less work = less economic activity.
People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast?
Less investments = less economic activity.

I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse.
And also early adopters would get too rich, while all the later adopters would be in very bad position.

I really desire, if it ever becomes mainstream, that it grows VERY SLOWLY.


I could not disagree with you more. Why would you think that Bitcoin success would cause an economic collapse? Please explain. You're basically wishing ill upon people in this community. No mass adoption...no wealth...no Bitcoin. What's with the spite?        
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April 18, 2014, 01:24:29 PM
 #13

I don't understand this feeling of being entitled to increase your wealth by, say, 100 or 1000 times in few years, by doing nothing and just holding bitcoin.

Question:  Do you think it's ethical to buy a lottery ticket and hope that it pays off?  If it does, is it ethical to collect your winnings?

I know this is not exactly the same thing as Bitcoin, but I'd like to probe a little into the idea that it's wrong to increase ones wealth without being "productive".

Another:  Is it ethical to accept a large inheritance?  What about a small gift?
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April 18, 2014, 01:31:51 PM
Last edit: April 18, 2014, 01:44:47 PM by moravian
 #14

With lottery you have mathematically proven extremely small chance of winning (close to zero). So for people lottery is just a game. People buy it, and expect to lose money.

With bitcoin some people expect FOR SURE to increase their wealth 100 or 1000 times.
Exponential growth is quite dramatic thing, that can lead to disasters.
I am not wishing anyone ill, i am just frightened by such huge expected rises of value.
I think it should be a more gradual thing. And also I am a bit shocked by feelings of entitlement.
If I had a lot of money, I would maybe buy just one or two bitcoins, just in case they boom, that I am not the last one left behind.
But I would never put all of my money into it. I wouldn't even put most of my money into it. Probably just a small fraction.

When it comes to accepting large inheritance I am undecided about whether it's ethical or not. Maybe inheritance law could be modified if not abolished completely. However, it's normal and natural for parents to want to leave something for their children, so I don't think it's really wrong. And also they probably worked hard for years to earn that money, so they can decide what to do with  it as they please.

Edit for spelling mistakes.
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April 18, 2014, 01:42:20 PM
 #15

Also, I am looking at the bigger picture. While astronomical rise would surely benefit those who have bitcoin, I am not sure if it would benefit the entire society and economy. So my desire is greater good for everyone, and not just owners of bitcoin. And that would be possible, in my opinion, by more gradual rise, and gradual adoption.
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April 18, 2014, 01:56:25 PM
 #16

Also, I am looking at the bigger picture. While astronomical rise would surely benefit those who have bitcoin, I am not sure if it would benefit the entire society and economy. So my desire is greater good for everyone, and not just owners of bitcoin. And that would be possible, in my opinion, by more gradual rise, and gradual adoption.

As if price retractions are not enough? Plenty of time even for the slowest thinkers to get onboard when it is cheap. And it is cheap half the time. Understand this - price can not steadily rise to it's actual final valuation. It is impossible, as soon as people see steadily rising price, they speed things up exponentially. So whether or not you are sure, bitcoin excuses itself as it does not give much concern while it finds it's actual value by oscillating wildly.

If you have any solid ideas, how a "greater good for everyone" works, sure, describe? So far all greater good adepts start with pre-allocating all the coins to themselves and then they will decide who gets their share Smiley I say, screw such "greater good", let the market figure out the distribution, at least it is not one greedy human being but a whole lot of them, and everybody gets their chance.

i am satoshi
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April 18, 2014, 02:34:17 PM
 #17

I don't understand this feeling of being entitled to increase your wealth by, say, 100 or 1000 times in few years, by doing nothing and just holding bitcoin.

Question:  Do you think it's ethical to buy a lottery ticket and hope that it pays off?  If it does, is it ethical to collect your winnings?

I know this is not exactly the same thing as Bitcoin, but I'd like to probe a little into the idea that it's wrong to increase ones wealth without being "productive".

Another:  Is it ethical to accept a large inheritance?  What about a small gift?


Lottery ticket:  If your ethics are Judeo-Christian, then it's ethically wrong.  On top of being monumentally stupid.  Collecting the winnings (profits of gambling) would also be wrong.

Large inheritance:  If by "accepting" you mean taking it and giving it away, then you're awesome from a Christian perspective ("If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me." -KJV)

Ethics are meh.
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April 18, 2014, 02:43:37 PM
 #18

My deeply held belief is that you have to work hard to become rich, and not just sit down and watch your wealth increase.

That is an utopian ideal that goes against human nature.  The real economy simply doesn't work like that.  It hasn't worked like that ever since the invention of agriculture, and probably not even before that.

If the economy worked like that, then a subsistence farmer in Africa would earn the same hourly wage as a star football player. By any objective measure, both work equally hard. So why do their hourly wages differ by a factor of 100,000?

In a free market, people do not get rewarded for work.  They get rewarded for creating value.  There are many ways of creating value.  For most of them work is a necessary, but not sufficient ingredient.  But humans are very similar in their capacity and willingness to work. Even the hardest working human on the planet cannot put in more than 20 hours a day.  The crucial ingredient for creating value is not work but access to capital.   The variability in amount of work is tiny compared to the variability in access to capital.

In the information economy, smart allocation of information capital is the key to getting rich. It is also the key to boosting our living standards far beyond what a more labor-oriented economy could achieve.  This is why I don't worry about tech entrepreneurs getting filthy rich.

Sure it would be nice if everyone on earth had equal access to capital.  But it is in the nature of all living things, including humans, to pass capital to their offspring, and thus capital accumulates over generations.  And I don't just mean money that is inherited, I am also talking about things like social and cultural capital.

Utopian cures to this "disease" have proven disastrous.


Quote
Less spending = less economic activity.

Economic activity, by itself, is neither good nor bad.  What matters is the type of economic activity, not the quantity.  Economics is all about the allocation of scarce resources.  Forget about money for a moment.  A desirable economy is one that allocates resources such in a way that maximizes utility for the biggest number of people.   The optimum amount of economic activity in the right sectors is what achieves this.   Indiscriminate boosting of economic activity is almost always detrimental to this.  Money is just an auxiliary.  Resources are still allocated irrespective of whether all money is being circulated all the time.


Quote
Less work = less economic activity.

See above. This is not necessarily a bad thing. There is an optimum amount of work that makes most people most happy.  When people work more than that they become unhappier again. Maximization of work is not desirable. Maximization of happiness is.


Quote
People would also invest less in real companies. Why invest in something that grows slow, when you can invest in bitcoin which grows fast?

Bitcoin will only grow fast as long as it's in diffusion phase. Once established, price will be relatively stagnant like for any other established stock or commodity.

Quote
I hope bitcoin will never go mainstream and rise so fast in value. It could cause total economic collapse.

Yeah, because people would rather starve than part with their precious bitcoins?

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April 18, 2014, 02:46:20 PM
 #19

Firstly the wealth created by hard work doesn't go back to the people who did the work.  The hardest workers in society are often the lowest paid, i.e. labourers.  

Secondly holding bitcoins isn't doing nothing.  While being merely an investment for some, for many of us holding bitcoins is political activism.  It's a vote of no confidence in the financial system and a vote of no confidence in the political system (as bitcoin technology can lead to the development of a direct digital democracy).  It's voting for a system that will facilitate freedom of speech (via the incentivzed decentralisation of the Internet) as well as the skirting unjust government sanctions that punish the poorest.  It's a vote for a system that can build a truly democratic world that includes everyone.  A vote for the reorganization of society into one that is capable of making decisions that lead to a sustainable future, which I argue is necessary for the survival of humanity and life on Earth.  Bitcoin is a vital tool in saving the world, and in many other ways than these. Isn't this an activity worthy of being richly rewarded?  Given the pointless 'hard work' so many people do I say people willing to take risks like this for the sake of the survival of their species are heroes worth decorating in robes of riches and glory.  (excuse me for tooting my own horn...  Tongue)

Plus if bitcoin does continue as many are expecting (to tens of thousands of dollars per coin and up) that will be the biggest redistribution of wealth in the history of man kind, which given the current state of wealth disparity I say is a good thing.  

Edit:  Also a final point:  since when is high economic activity good?  We build products that are designed to break just to people have to buy another one.  This 'economic growth at all costs' paradigm has resulted in taking us to the brink of a mass extinction.  Take the floating island of rubbish the size of texas floating across the pacific right now.  Do you really encourage the pointless hard work that fuels such a system?  Bitcoin is about changing the system to eventually make it sustainable.  It's like investing in the super-brain of humanity. 
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April 18, 2014, 03:22:34 PM
 #20

since when is high economic activity good?  We build products that are designed to break just to people have to buy another one.  This 'economic growth at all costs' paradigm has resulted in taking us to the brink of a mass extinction.  Take the floating island of rubbish the size of texas floating across the pacific right now.  Do you really encourage the pointless hard work that fuels such a system?  Bitcoin is about changing the system to eventually make it sustainable.  It's like investing in the super-brain of humanity. 

Yep and that is the greater good that will come out of bitcoin, does not matter what it's interim speculative value is. Not now, not tomorrow, not even in 5 years, but it will eventually.

i am satoshi
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