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moravian
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April 18, 2014, 04:03:04 PM
 #21

Firstly the wealth created by hard work doesn't go back to the people who did the work.  The hardest workers in society are often the lowest paid, i.e. labourers.  

It is true, but today's richest people also had to work hard or to be very inventive to become rich. Bill Gates is a very talented person who created a big company and Windows is the most used operating system in the world. So he deserves it. It's not easy to do what Bill Gates did. The same is true for most self-made billionaires. They all achieved extraordinary things, or they were extremely talented in some area.
This is completely different from someone who simply buys bitcoin, and 5 years later, voila, he is a millionaire.

Plus if bitcoin does continue as many are expecting (to tens of thousands of dollars per coin and up) that will be the biggest redistribution of wealth in the history of man kind, which given the current state of wealth disparity I say is a good thing.  

I actually think that this wouldn't achieve any redistribution at all. It would just reinforce current distribution even more. Those who were rich would become even richer, and those who were poor would become even poorer.

Today, most of bitcoin owners are young, educated, anglo-saxon men. People who already come from rich backgrounds. Those who can afford to spend money on it, and who can afford to lose money. And also those brave enough (and maybe greedy enough) to risk and to jump in it early.
Women are grossly underrepresented, as are minorities, people whose first language is not English, people from less developed countries etc.

And if you look at current distribution of bitcoins, it's way more unequal than general distribution of wealth in the world. Gini index for bitcoin economy is extremely high.

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moravian
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April 18, 2014, 04:19:12 PM
 #22

since when is high economic activity good?  We build products that are designed to break just to people have to buy another one.  This 'economic growth at all costs' paradigm has resulted in taking us to the brink of a mass extinction.  Take the floating island of rubbish the size of texas floating across the pacific right now.  Do you really encourage the pointless hard work that fuels such a system?  Bitcoin is about changing the system to eventually make it sustainable.  It's like investing in the super-brain of humanity. 

Yep and that is the greater good that will come out of bitcoin, does not matter what it's interim speculative value is. Not now, not tomorrow, not even in 5 years, but it will eventually.

I also agree that constant economic growth is not sustainable and not desirable. But I think it's too early for that. Advanced western economies are already approaching zero growth. But undeveloped countries still need economic growth, and a lot of it, if they ever plan to approach western standards of living.

Also, economic growth does not necessarily mean using more resources. Today, most of the things created in economy are immaterial things. Services. This tertiary sector dominates in GDP of developed countries. And it's not resource intensive economic activity. With the development of technology, it will be possible to create more value with using less resources.
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April 18, 2014, 04:28:36 PM
Merited by Foxpup (4)
 #23

It is true, but today's richest people also had to work hard or to be very inventive to become rich. Bill Gates is a very talented person who created a big company and Windows is the most used operating system in the world. So he deserves it. It's not easy to do what Bill Gates did. The same is true for most self-made billionaires. They all achieved extraordinary things, or they were extremely talented in some area.
This is completely different from someone who simply buys bitcoin, and 5 years later, voila, he is a millionaire.


So now you are judging who deserves to have money and who don't? Nice. Do you know that Bill Gates pretty much stole the DOS OS that started his path to riches? Just sayin'...

It so happens that, without a reliable way to determine how much somebody contributed to society and how much benefits this society owes that person now, money was invented as a medium of exchanging work-hours for the benefits. The fact that some people now have most of it, shows that it is far from perfect, but that's all we have (until bitcoin).

So, when you invest money into something, you invest your work. If your work (in form of money) makes you richer, that means you were "very inventive" with where you applied the proceeds of your work to, instead of wasting it on hookers and whisky.

One last thing, don't forget that holding bitcoins is a very tough task in itself. You have to protect them from hackers, not sell them when tempted, not send them to mtgox, etc. Try holding 1btc for 5 years, just so you would have some first hand experience.

i am satoshi
Ibian
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April 18, 2014, 05:06:20 PM
 #24

It is true, but today's richest people also had to work hard or to be very inventive to become rich. Bill Gates is a very talented person who created a big company and Windows is the most used operating system in the world. So he deserves it. It's not easy to do what Bill Gates did. The same is true for most self-made billionaires. They all achieved extraordinary things, or they were extremely talented in some area.
This is completely different from someone who simply buys bitcoin, and 5 years later, voila, he is a millionaire.
Investing in bitcoin takes intelligence and a high risk tolerance. If you lose your private keys then whatever money you put into bitcoin is gone forever and can never be recovered. This is the primary risk as I see it, but only because I know enough about the protocol and economy and history and psychology to see that bitcoin will inevitably keep growing. If not for that, the perceived risk would be far higher, and it is for a lot of people. Intelligence, risk tolerance, or both is what makes bitcoiners deserve their wealth. And cowardice and stupidity is what makes the masses deserve their wage slave jobs.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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April 18, 2014, 05:15:25 PM
 #25

If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward.

...strong contender for biggest outright lie ever told in the history of bitcointalk award.

No offense but come on dude, seriously? I guess if you bought google stock and a month later it started going crazy and within a few months or years you were a multi-millionaire or billionaire, you would feel guilty and ashamed and bad about it? What the fuck?
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April 18, 2014, 05:28:54 PM
 #26

I don't really understand you folks.


I guess the bigger question is......why the eff do you care what anyone else thinks here??

_Crypto made easier than cash_

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moravian
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April 18, 2014, 05:36:23 PM
 #27

If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward.

...strong contender for biggest outright lie ever told in the history of bitcointalk award.

No offense but come on dude, seriously? I guess if you bought google stock and a month later it started going crazy and within a few months or years you were a multi-millionaire or billionaire, you would feel guilty and ashamed and bad about it? What the fuck?

I would be happy and euphoric initially, but not sure how I would feel about it in long term. It's like winning lottery. I've watched some documentaries about people winning lottery, and most of them didn't keep their money in long term, some even became depressed or even poorer eventually.

Also, Google is not the same as bitcoin. Because google creates value through it's services, while bitcoin is just a store of value and means of exchange.
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April 18, 2014, 05:50:57 PM
 #28

Anyway, that's pretty much all i have to contribute at this moment. I don't feel like breaking your dreams. Just wanted to share some of my thoughts with you. I hope bitcoin's future will be such that it doesn't cause too many shocks and that it really achieves all the noble goals that you all desire, without too many side effects. I am not sure if this will happen, but that's what I would like to happen. Also, I think slower and steady growth is better for bitcoin as well, because it would mean wider adoption. Constant cycles of bubbles and crashes alienate a lot of people from it, and also a lot of people earn or lose a lot of money quickly and this is always tough play. I've heard of people dreaming about bitcoin. I know for myself that I wouldn't like to be so obsessed by one thing. Even now, even if I don't own any bitcoins, I follow the charts and discussions every day and follow it with excitement. I think I would get unhealthily obsessed if i actually owned some.
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April 18, 2014, 06:02:56 PM
Merited by Foxpup (2)
 #29

I actually think that a genuine belief in the idea that money is only deserved or earned through hard work is exactly what prevents most people from being rich.  If you've ever worked at some place like UPS, you will find lots of people who are proud of this hard work but have empty bank accounts.

Try not just believing, but *knowing* that money comes easily.  You might find that, in fact, money does come easily.  I've been trying this approach for over a year now, and though it may be coincidence, I've seen significant increases in my income, and on a number of occasions certain situations have arisen where extra money seems to come to me without even trying.
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April 18, 2014, 06:05:17 PM
Merited by Foxpup (4)
 #30

With lottery you have mathematically proven extremely small chance of winning (close to zero). So for people lottery is just a game. People buy it, and expect to lose money.

With bitcoin some people expect FOR SURE to increase their wealth 100 or 1000 times.
Exponential growth is quite dramatic thing, that can lead to disasters.
I am not wishing anyone ill, i am just frightened by such huge expected rises of value.
I think it should be a more gradual thing. And also I am a bit shocked by feelings of entitlement.
If I had a lot of money, I would maybe buy just one or two bitcoins, just in case they boom, that I am not the last one left behind.
But I would never put all of my money into it. I wouldn't even put most of my money into it. Probably just a small fraction.

When it comes to accepting large inheritance I am undecided about whether it's ethical or not. Maybe inheritance law could be modified if not abolished completely. However, it's normal and natural for parents to want to leave something for their children, so I don't think it's really wrong. And also they probably worked hard for years to earn that money, so they can decide what to do with  it as they please.

Edit for spelling mistakes.

I hate to say this, but you are a fool.

What is happening in bitcoin already happened with every large company from Woolworth's to Google.  The ONLY difference is that usually, the people that get rich on the adoption curve are: a handful of executives and a lot of bankers.  The people that work to make something are typically robbed of the fruits of their contribution down to the bare minimums, to the point where unions were needed to allow them to, you know, actually live on their wages.  And once the stock value goes through the roof and starts to level off, only THEN is it available for sale to peons like you and me where in meanders along making very low percentages.

There are a few companies where the bankers screwed up and allowed the IPO too soon, most notably the tech companies like Google, Apple and Microsoft.  There were substantial gains to be made on those stocks, because the bankers screwed up when imagining just how globally large they would eventually become.

The ONLY difference with bitcoin is that it is the first technology where you and I can make the amount of money normally made by CEOs and bankers, because it's open source and peer-to-peer.  There is no central figure to vacuum up all the profits, although certainly Satoshi is rich.

So, by your own admission you are afraid of anything different.  But the only difference here is that it is the first "fair" investment in the history of the world.  But you would rather be robbed by CEOs and bankers because it seems more normal to you.  Because bitcoin is too different and you don't like change.

Sorry.  I, for one, welcome the opportunity to invest in something and actually reap the rewards for once.

1BitcHiCK1iRa6YVY6qDqC6M594RBYLNPo
BitchicksHusband
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April 18, 2014, 06:08:24 PM
 #31

If the value of my assets increased that much as you all want and expect, I wouldn't feel good about it. It would feel to me like an undeserved reward.

...strong contender for biggest outright lie ever told in the history of bitcointalk award.

No offense but come on dude, seriously? I guess if you bought google stock and a month later it started going crazy and within a few months or years you were a multi-millionaire or billionaire, you would feel guilty and ashamed and bad about it? What the fuck?

I would be happy and euphoric initially, but not sure how I would feel about it in long term. It's like winning lottery. I've watched some documentaries about people winning lottery, and most of them didn't keep their money in long term, some even became depressed or even poorer eventually.

Also, Google is not the same as bitcoin. Because google creates value through it's services, while bitcoin is just a store of value and means of exchange.

The "happy" people on those shows are the ones that don't change anything.  They continue to live where they do and have the same friends they always did.

Yeah, maybe they have a few more toys, but they remain essentially unchanged.

One family had a side business cleaning toilets at office buildings.  Winning the lottery meant they could quit their day jobs, but they still do janitorial work together as a family.

1BitcHiCK1iRa6YVY6qDqC6M594RBYLNPo
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April 18, 2014, 07:09:33 PM
 #32

There is nothing immoral about wanting to make money.

Making money with money is basically unethical.

A number of startups are developing services and products for bitcoin and I would like the price remains somewhat stable without rollercoasters at each minute.
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April 18, 2014, 07:16:23 PM
 #33

There is nothing immoral about wanting to make money.

Making money with money is basically unethical.

A number of startups are developing services and products for bitcoin and I would like the price remains somewhat stable without rollercoasters at each minute.
No, making money through usury is unethical. At least if we are going by typical biblical ethics, otherwise all we are left with is personal opinion. In which case, screw your ethics.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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April 18, 2014, 07:53:22 PM
 #34

Making money with money is basically unethical.

Wow!  Could you expand on the logic behind this one?  I'm not taunting; I'm genuinely interested.

I've often found myself in the minority when it comes to morals.  Recently here I've defended tax cheats, condemned selling general election votes, and defending pimping.  I certainly don't wish to write off a seemingly bizarre ethical notion without giving the person claiming it a chance to defend it.

Still, if you can defend this claim: Wow!
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April 18, 2014, 09:22:40 PM
 #35

Well, it is not only a religious view but also a philosophical position.

For Aristotle, money is just a medium of exchange and for him, making money with money was bad.

But I admit it's difficult to make quick and big money with ethical integrity and honesty...
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April 18, 2014, 09:28:03 PM
 #36

...
No, making money through usury is unethical. At least if we are going by typical biblical ethics, otherwise all we are left with is personal opinion. In which case, screw your ethics.

The Bible has a much wider interpretation of "usury."  Religious law, both Jewish and Christian, prohibits lending money with interest -- that's usury.  Which pretty much precludes "making money by having money" (though there's nothing there about deflationary currencies, which could be seen as making the holder wealthier).
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April 18, 2014, 09:58:06 PM
 #37

Quote
So now you are judging who deserves to have money and who don't? Nice. Do you know that Bill Gates pretty much stole the DOS OS that started his path to riches? Just sayin'

as far as I know Microsoft purchased 86-DOS, allegedly for $50,000 and the money Gates III borrowed from his father

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/86-DOS

ps-> I didn't know that Linux Kernel had used a "CLOSED SOURCE" source code management (SCM) BitKeeper for years .... anyway I believe that close source at 80's was the best way to remunerate software community ... ( not hardware builders only )

http://www.introversion.co.uk/
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April 18, 2014, 10:11:41 PM
 #38

...
No, making money through usury is unethical. At least if we are going by typical biblical ethics, otherwise all we are left with is personal opinion. In which case, screw your ethics.

The Bible has a much wider interpretation of "usury."  Religious law, both Jewish and Christian, prohibits lending money with interest -- that's usury.  Which pretty much precludes "making money by having money" (though there's nothing there about deflationary currencies, which could be seen as making the holder wealthier).
No.

Usury is usury. That is lending money and getting more money back with no further effort on your part. That says nothing about any other form of business.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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April 18, 2014, 10:56:18 PM
Last edit: April 18, 2014, 11:33:18 PM by sporket
 #39

...
No.
Usury is usury. That is lending money and getting more money back with no further effort on your part. That says nothing about any other form of business.

Why wold I lie?  What is it that you've found in my post that you disagree with?
Below is conveniently quoted from wikip's entry on USURY:
Quote
Jewish Bible[edit]
(AKA Christian Old Testament) From Jewish Publication Society 1917 Tanakh.[32] Christian verses in parentheses.

Exodus 22:24 (25)—If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest.

Leviticus 25:36— Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.

Leviticus 25:37— Thou shalt not give him thy money upon interest, nor give him thy victuals for increase.

Deuteronomy 23:20 (19)—Thou shalt not lend upon interest to thy brother: interest of money, interest of victuals, interest of any thing that is lent upon interest.

Deuteronomy 23:21 (20)—Unto a foreigner thou mayest lend upon interest; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon interest; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou puttest thy hand unto, in the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

Ezekiel 18:17—that hath withdrawn his hand from the poor, that hath not received interest nor increase, hath executed Mine ordinances, hath walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

Psalm 15:5—He that putteth not out his money on interest, nor taketh a bribe against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

Christian Bible[edit]

This article may be confusing or unclear to readers. Please help us clarify the article; suggestions may be found on the talk page. (March 2011)


Christ drives the Usurers out of the Temple, a woodcut by Lucas Cranach the Elder in Passionary of Christ and Antichrist.[33]
The New Testament contains references to usury, notably in the Parable of the talents:

"Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury."

—Matthew 25:27
"Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.."

—Matthew 25:27
"…Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow. Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?"

—Luke 19:22-23
Clarifying confusion or the lack of clarity:

The above scriptures teach about putting your talents to work, not so much about business savvy or how to lend money ( please read the above passages in context for clarity ).

The following scriptures teach about lending:

"Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

—Matthew 5:42
"And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."

—Luke 6:34-35
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

—Luke 6:38

Almost every religion takes a shit view of money.  Money epitomizes things low and secular, Christ overturns the tables of the money changers  and sellers of doves who set up shop in The Temple -- how's that for blunt imagery?  I personally love money, don't get me wrong, but money is intrinsically evil, and those who have it can not be saintly by definition, or Christian-saintly at least.  Christ tells a rich young man to give away all of his possessions to be more like Him.
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April 19, 2014, 12:26:39 AM
 #40

...
No.
Usury is usury. That is lending money and getting more money back with no further effort on your part. That says nothing about any other form of business.

Why wold I lie?  What is it that you've found in my post that you disagree with?
Below is conveniently quoted from wikip's entry on USURY:
Quote
Jewish Bible[edit]
(AKA Christian Old Testament) From Jewish Publication Society 1917 Tanakh.[32] Christian verses in parentheses.

Exodus 22:24 (25)—If thou lend money to any of My people, even to the poor with thee, thou shalt not be to him as a creditor; neither shall ye lay upon him interest.

Leviticus 25:36— Take thou no interest of him or increase; but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.

Leviticus 25:37— Thou shalt not give him thy money upon interest, nor give him thy victuals for increase.

Deuteronomy 23:20 (19)—Thou shalt not lend upon interest to thy brother: interest of money, interest of victuals, interest of any thing that is lent upon interest.

Deuteronomy 23:21 (20)—Unto a foreigner thou mayest lend upon interest; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon interest; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou puttest thy hand unto, in the land whither thou goest in to possess it.

Ezekiel 18:17—that hath withdrawn his hand from the poor, that hath not received interest nor increase, hath executed Mine ordinances, hath walked in My statutes; he shall not die for the iniquity of his father, he shall surely live.

Psalm 15:5—He that putteth not out his money on interest, nor taketh a bribe against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be moved.

Christian Bible[edit]

This article may be confusing or unclear to readers. Please help us clarify the article; suggestions may be found on the talk page. (March 2011)


Christ drives the Usurers out of the Temple, a woodcut by Lucas Cranach the Elder in Passionary of Christ and Antichrist.[33]
The New Testament contains references to usury, notably in the Parable of the talents:

"Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury."

—Matthew 25:27
"Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.."

—Matthew 25:27
"…Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, thou wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow. Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?"

—Luke 19:22-23
Clarifying confusion or the lack of clarity:

The above scriptures teach about putting your talents to work, not so much about business savvy or how to lend money ( please read the above passages in context for clarity ).

The following scriptures teach about lending:

"Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you."

—Matthew 5:42
"And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked."

—Luke 6:34-35
"Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.”

—Luke 6:38

Almost every religion takes a shit view of money.  Money epitomizes things low and secular, Christ overturns the tables of the money changers  and sellers of doves who set up shop in The Temple -- how's that for blunt imagery?  I personally love money, don't get me wrong, but money is intrinsically evil, and those who have it can not be saintly by definition, or Christian-saintly at least.  Christ tells a rich young man to give away all of his possessions to be more like Him.

Why should a rational person get his morality from the Bible?
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