Which Proof of Stake System is the Most Viable

[ChuckOne]

can you provide a source for the 10 blocks confirmation time for nxt being comparable for 6 blocks for btc. as i know, 6 blocks is immutable for bitcoin and the wiki says that 1440 blocks is immutable for nxt. what is deemed as "acceptable" for btc is 1 to 3 blocks.

720 are immutable for Nxt as we have rolling checkpoints (that is each node does not accept blockchain re-org after 720 blocks)
1440 is for having effective balance (that is you need to generate blocks)

I am not sure if 6 blocks in Bitcoin means immutable. Bitcoin does not have rolling checkpoints. I thought it was a recommendation. Do you have a link?

10 blocks are the recommendation for Nxt but I never had problems with 2 or 3 confirmations transactions. On the other hand, they are rare because I am too slow because new blocks can come in fast (because the block times are still random)

After some testing I have done, we have forks of length 1 but not longer. So, the network is pretty stable. As BitShares will use almost the same consensus algo, I can tell you that your network will be stable as hell.

I was under the impression that 10 blocks was more like 1 block for bitcoin.

I think this analogy is somewhat correct. In the future, it will not because Nxt will have constant block times of 1 minute whereas Bitcoins block times are random.

when i use bter i think it takes 20 confirmations to go through so i would assume 10 blocks for nxt is not comparable to 6 blocks for bitcoin.

I do not know of BTER.

i understand that this will change with TF and new release. I will use your suggestion of splitting consensus into base and mechanism. thanks for the information!

Sounds cool.

[ChuckOne]

6 blocks isn't immutable for bitcoin. It's just a recommendation, because with each block it becomes mathematically harder for a fork to catch up. If you want it to be truly immutable for bitcoin, you would have to go back to the last place a checkpoint was manually hardcoded in.

Do you have a link for that 10 blocks?

[valarmg]

6 blocks isn't immutable for bitcoin. It's just a recommendation, because with each block it becomes mathematically harder for a fork to catch up. If you want it to be truly immutable for bitcoin, you would have to go back to the last place a checkpoint was manually hardcoded in.

Do you have a link for that 10 blocks?

No. Though since you said that normally forks are no longer than 1 block high, then 10 is probably super conservative.

[clout]

you guys are right to say that 6 block confirmations for bitcoin does not make an immutable transaction. it says here that 10 confirmations are recommended for nxt. i don't know if there is any analysis of the recommendation that would make it easier to compare to bitcoin confirmations. also bter is a chinese exchange that has 70% nxt trading volume.  

[clout]

my mistake, bter uses 10 confirmations as well

[devphp]

I believe, for objectivity purposes, it would make sense to differentiate between 'normal conditions' and 'emergency conditions' when comparing systems. So, two sets of numbers are required for each system in the table.

[ChuckOne]

I believe, for objectivity purposes, it would make sense to differentiate between 'normal conditions' and 'emergency conditions' when comparing systems. So, two sets of numbers are required for each system in the table.

This!

Not bad. That would dramatically increase the credibility of that table. +1

[FriendsOfBitshares]

I believe perhaps this is the same table referenced.  It has been changed and updated.  It has NXT/Bitshares vs other networks.  I think some of the accuracy concerns have been addressed ?

http://wiki.bitshares.org/images/5/5f/POS_Table_comparison_smaller.png

[devphp]

I believe perhaps this is the same table referenced.  It has been changed and updated.  It has NXT/Bitshares vs other networks.  I think some of the accuracy concerns have been addressed ?

Well, as long as it's impossible to include features specific to NXT into that table, which would show in red for BitShares, and as long as all the features showing in green for BitShares already work, I would say the accuracy concerns have been addressed

[ChuckOne]

They are all special, each in their own unique way. There are no winners and losers. It's all a learning experience, and we're all in this together. Who needs a hug?

Me.

[ChuckOne]

I believe perhaps this is the same table referenced.  It has been changed and updated.  It has NXT/Bitshares vs other networks.  I think some of the accuracy concerns have been addressed ?

Well, as long as it's impossible to include features specific to NXT into that table, which would show in red for BitShares, and as long as all the features showing in green for BitShares already work, I would say the accuracy concerns have been addressed

This table shows future features, right? Because BitShare is not alive, yet. If so, you need to mark the red cells for Nxt also green.

As I said, with the next major feature release, Nxt will provide all of them (except Cross-Chain Trading - that will be addressed in the feature release after next)

[XbladeX]

Only time will show
PPC C++ family (Nova Blackcoin… ) or NXT,NEM,NODE  java.

NXT is creating different system while PPC family is able to use in easy way solution from BTC markets.

Today you have NXT assent exchange this is BIG interesting concept
but from the other had you have Blackcoin multisign that will
allow “cold stacking” - you will be able to stake using mobile and PC – hacker will have to hack your both devices in order to stole your coins.
That currently works but you need 2 PC but mobile client is only matter of time.(will be open source after some time after full release )
Such technology is needed in crypto overall to help people start thinking that digital currencies are secure like bank accounts.

Both POS systems are improving over time but technology using between them is different I don’t know what future will be.

NXT is making nice moves forward in development (java is easier to program ) while Blackcoin PPC are improving protocols too.

There won’t be ultimate GREAT solution and all will have own + and -.
But every “–“ can be solved sooner or later like Blackcoin is solving insecure stacking problem.
NXT will develop their solutions too.

[From Above]

Re: Which Proof of Stake System is the Most Viable:
BitShares  DPoS

~CfA~

[clout]

I believe perhaps this is the same table referenced.  It has been changed and updated.  It has NXT/Bitshares vs other networks.  I think some of the accuracy concerns have been addressed ?

Well, as long as it's impossible to include features specific to NXT into that table, which would show in red for BitShares, and as long as all the features showing in green for BitShares already work, I would say the accuracy concerns have been addressed

This table shows future features, right? Because BitShare is not alive, yet. If so, you need to mark the red cells for Nxt also green.

As I said, with the next major feature release, Nxt will provide all of them (except Cross-Chain Trading - that will be addressed in the feature release after next)

No the only "future" feature of bitshares is market pegged. Everything has been public tested for the past 2 months. You can join the test at bitsharestalk.org. When is this next major feature release for nxt?

[liondani]

I believe perhaps this is the same table referenced.  It has been changed and updated.  It has NXT/Bitshares vs other networks.  I think some of the accuracy concerns have been addressed ?

Well, as long as it's impossible to include features specific to NXT into that table, which would show in red for BitShares, and as long as all the features showing in green for BitShares already work, I would say the accuracy concerns have been addressed

This table shows future features, right? Because BitShare is not alive, yet. If so, you need to mark the red cells for Nxt also green.

As I said, with the next major feature release, Nxt will provide all of them (except Cross-Chain Trading - that will be addressed in the feature release after next)

No the only "future" feature of bitshares is market pegged. Everything has been public tested for the past 2 months. You can join the test at bitsharestalk.org. When is this next major feature release for nxt?

I confirm what clout said. I tested BitSharesX also and I am more than impressed! Please try by yourself and make your personall conclusions at https://bitsharestalk.org/index.php?topic=5523.0
just ask on the forum to send you some test funds giving your BitSharesXT address... their members there are all very helpfull...

[CLains]

I believe perhaps this is the same table referenced.  It has been changed and updated.  It has NXT/Bitshares vs other networks.  I think some of the accuracy concerns have been addressed ?

Easy money.

[bytemaster]

To be fair messaging in BTSX is still TBD.
Cross-Chain-Trading has blockchain support, but has not been demonstrated in any test network.
Market Pegged assets are going to be tested live this week on the test network.

Items missing from table:
Pay transaction fees in any user-issued asset for which there is an open ask order.

Market Matching Algorithm is a tad more complex than just saying "automatic"... can anyone point me to the algorithm used by Nxt?

Nxt has leasing... DPOS has delegation... so lets compare and contrast:
   a) leasing is for a fixed period of time
   b) does leasing require executing a transaction on the blockchain (to lease) and does this charge a fee?
   c) can your lease be revoked prior to the period of time.
   d) what happens when your leased forging power are spent to someone new?

It seems like Nxt leasing + Transparent Forging is very similar in principle to DPOS prior to upgrade to approval voting.

[devphp]

Nxt has leasing... DPOS has delegation... so lets compare and contrast:
   a) leasing is for a fixed period of time
   b) does leasing require executing a transaction on the blockchain (to lease) and does this charge a fee?
   c) can your lease be revoked prior to the period of time.
   d) what happens when your leased forging power are spent to someone new?

In NXT:
a) can lease for 32767 maximum blocks (not sure if that limit can or will be changed in the future).
b) yes, it's a separate type of tx with a fee.
c) It can't be revoked before lease expires (again, this could be changed in future releases as this feature becomes more advanced).
d) the accepting account can't lease lessor's forging power to others, they can only lease their own NXT balance to others.

[valarmg]

Nxt has leasing... DPOS has delegation... so lets compare and contrast:
   a) leasing is for a fixed period of time
   b) does leasing require executing a transaction on the blockchain (to lease) and does this charge a fee?
   c) can your lease be revoked prior to the period of time.
   d) what happens when your leased forging power are spent to someone new?

In NXT:
a) can lease for 32767 maximum blocks (not sure if that limit can or will be changed in the future).
b) yes, it's a separate type of tx with a fee.
c) It can't be revoked before lease expires (again, this could be changed in future releases as this feature becomes more advanced).
d) the accepting account can't lease lessor's forging power to others, they can only lease their own NXT balance to others.

On c). It can't be revoked, but you still have control of your coins so if you move them to another account, the lease is effectively broken.

[clout]

To be fair messaging in BTSX is still TBD.
Cross-Chain-Trading has blockchain support, but has not been demonstrated in any test network.
Market Pegged assets are going to be tested live this week on the test network.

Items missing from table:
Pay transaction fees in any user-issued asset for which there is an open ask order.

Market Matching Algorithm is a tad more complex than just saying "automatic"... can anyone point me to the algorithm used by Nxt?

Nxt has leasing... DPOS has delegation... so lets compare and contrast:
   a) leasing is for a fixed period of time
   b) does leasing require executing a transaction on the blockchain (to lease) and does this charge a fee?
   c) can your lease be revoked prior to the period of time.
   d) what happens when your leased forging power are spent to someone new?

It seems like Nxt leasing + Transparent Forging is very similar in principle to DPOS prior to upgrade to approval voting.

Maybe I'm being pedantic but its an important enough distinction to me that to be chronologicaly correct, you should state "It seems like DPOS prior to upgrade to approval voting is very similar in principle to Nxt leasing + Transparent Forging". Otherwise you sound not objective by preceeding your own tech when in fact it is preceeded by Nxt.

Both networks were designed independently... It doesn't matter which preceded which.