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Author Topic: Worldwide Strike 2012  (Read 5774 times)
NghtRppr
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April 15, 2011, 07:44:14 PM
 #21

While I agree with your sentiments, diamonds are actually almost worthless. They are only worth something to some people because of clever marketing. Go buy a diamond, then try to re-sell it. Worth almost nothing.

You're just repeating what you've been told and haven't actually done any research. You won't get anywhere near the retail price you paid but they are certainly not almost worthless.
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April 15, 2011, 11:08:14 PM
 #22

How silly? Why are they silly? Oh wait, you lot are capitalists. Never mind, carry on. (Personally, I think the silliest thing is that they seem to want to keep the government. The getting rid of money isn't so silly. I'm supporting Bitcoin because it's a tool against government, not because I like money.)

Quote
Is anyone really surprised that a janitor makes less money than a brain surgeon?
Which is more important for society? If all the janitors suddenly disappeared, what would happen? If all the brain surgeons suddenly disappeared, what would happen? I suggested that in the first case, perhaps the brain surgeons would "led full, rich and happy lives until they [are] all suddenly wiped out by a virulent disease contracted from a dirty telephone", or something.

For a further discussion on  the differences between doctors and janitors, check out this thread on Reveft.
Particularly the fifth post, which I will quote part of here:
Quote
Now why should they be paid differently? We have already established that the doctor most likely emerged from a position of privilege and cannot perform their task without the janitor. In short, we have established that the doctor and janitor live in a mutually benefiting relationship in the sense that both of them are necessary to one another's survival and well-being.

In short:
So your brother should say that they should be paid differently because one's purpose is more valuable than the other. But we have already articulated the opposite. If he is going to argue that one went to school for a long time, we have dismissed that reasonably and attributed it to privilege. If he is going to argue that the doctor's job is harder, this is false as the janitor's job is more difficult and arduous while the doctor's job is more technically advanced. This doesn't make it harder though.

I really can't be bothered arguing the point, because I don't enjoy banging my head on walls.

In other words, you don't give a damn about people's preferences and the only acceptable set of values is your own. If people die from brain surgeries done by janitors in your world then so be it. This is the future under your system, and this guy is your hero:

He believed in the same things that you do... for everyone else except himself, of course.

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April 16, 2011, 11:44:18 AM
 #23

You are a moron if you think that. One, I'm against all government. Two the USSR was not in anyway communist, though it may have started out as an attempt to bring about an end result of communism. Why wasn't it communist? Because communism is classless and stateless, two things which existed in all the "communist" countries. At most the USSR claimed to be moving towards communism.

Also, preferences can be expressed in a myriad of ways. "Free markets" (which any capitalist system will inevitably stop being) are merely one way.

Personally, I think that few of you have ever bothered to engage beyond name calling with people who have radically different opinions to you. That's why some people are making ignorant statements about the use of force to get what you want in a moneyless society. Hint, look up gift economy.

----

Edit: I also just want to say that the basis for my political (and life) philosophy is an attachment to freedom, and to a lesser extent, equality. Using that as the basis, I can say that, for example, capitalism conflicts with both freedom and equality. The first because it inevitably forms either monopolies or governments or other structures that restrict freedom. The second for obvious reasons.

If you have a different starting point for your political philosophy, we aren't going to agree. If you don't have a starting point, maybe you should re-examine everything you ever thought you knew and get a starting point.

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State-less capitalist society = Mafia run society. Capitalist apologists who support such this, are not anarchists.
rezin777
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April 16, 2011, 02:45:59 PM
 #24

Personally, I think that few of you have ever bothered to engage beyond name calling with people who have radically different opinions to you.

You are a moron if you think that.

Using that as the basis, I can say that, for example, capitalism conflicts with both freedom and equality.

maybe you should re-examine everything you ever thought you knew
NghtRppr
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April 16, 2011, 05:05:00 PM
 #25

You are a moron if you think that.

Personally, I think that few of you have ever bothered to engage beyond name calling with people who have radically different opinions to you.

Oh, the irony. By the way, care to respond to my post?

http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=5884.msg86538#msg86538

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April 16, 2011, 06:41:06 PM
 #26

Personally, I think that few of you have ever bothered to engage beyond name calling with people who have radically different opinions to you.

I'm sorry if we gave this impression.

Just answer this question please:  how do I convince someone to do something for me in a moneyless society?

Say I want to go in a foreign country but I don't own a plane nor I can pilot one.  Should I just find someone who do, and ask him to take me there?  What if this person doesn't want to go there, for instance because he thinks he has more interesting things to do?

How do I convince people to work so that I can eat something everyday?  If I can't use money, does that mean that in order to have the right to receive some food, I would be required to work too?  Does that mean that my economic activities would be planified by some central bureaucracy?   Of course I have no problem with working to get some food, but I don't like the idea of people telling me what work exactly I must do and when.

In a same way that you think that with capitalism free market eventually ends, I think that communism eventually ends up with forced labour.
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April 17, 2011, 05:11:01 AM
 #27

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Oh, the irony. By the way, care to respond to my post?
Notice the very important word in what you quoted, "if". The person basically said I had the same ideas as Stalin. Which is a really stupid thing to say, 'cause, like, I had already said I disliked government. Moreover, I had said nothing of the sort. Moreover, I've engaged in much more than just name-calling with people who have different ideas.

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Which is more important for human survival, bread or diamonds? Hmm, then I wonder why diamonds cost a lot more than bread. It might have something to do with economics. It is true that bread is more important in general than diamonds but we have plenty of bread and fewer diamonds so any individual loaf of bread isn't important.
Because the diamond miners keep the price so high? Considering that artificial diamonds are just as good....

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Almost anyone can pick up a broom and sweep. A lot fewer people can slice open a human skull without puking into it or making the person worse off than before. Therefore, even though janitors are important in general, no individual janitor is important because they are so plentiful.
Your argument seems to be that scarcity+demand means that something should cost more. I disagree. We are approaching this from completely different perspectives.

Personally, I think that few of you have ever bothered to engage beyond name calling with people who have radically different opinions to you.

I'm sorry if we gave this impression.
It's not everyone, just many.


Quote
Just answer this question please:  how do I convince someone to do something for me in a moneyless society?
Gift economy.
Quote
Say I want to go in a foreign country but I don't own a plane nor I can pilot one.  Should I just find someone who do, and ask him to take me there?  What if this person doesn't want to go there, for instance because he thinks he has more interesting things to do?
I would suggest that it would be perfectly possible that there would be regular flights between major destinations 'cause that's what some people like doing to contribute to society.

Quote
How do I convince people to work so that I can eat something everyday?  If I can't use money, does that mean that in order to have the right to receive some food, I would be required to work too?  Does that mean that my economic activities would be planified by some central bureaucracy?   Of course I have no problem with working to get some food, but I don't like the idea of people telling me what work exactly I must do and when.
So you don't work for a company then? You work on your own? In a true communist society, I doubt there would be a central bureaucracy, because such things would inevitably produce inequality.
Perhaps what would happen is that people building widgets would notice their stock of gadgets is running low. They might ring up the gadget makers and ask them to send a pile over. The gadget makers say, no worries! Or, perhaps there is an automated system, whereby gadgets get set to the widget makers every month. The widgets then get sent to the distribution center, where they are given out to the people who want them. Personally, I don't like the widgets made by the Daiichi Widget Factory, so I get my widgets from Daini Widget Factory. But most people like the number one widgets, and so only a few people work at the number two factory.

I'm a computer person, so I help out both widget factories with their computers as, and when needed. At other times I go and look after kids at the crèche, or perhaps paint a picture or two. Not many people like my paintings, but enough do that it does contribute. Other people paint just because they like painting, but they consider it a hobby, rather than "work".

Quote
In a same way that you think that with capitalism free market eventually ends, I think that communism eventually ends up with forced labour.
I think that capitalism = forced labor. I think that true, proper, communism (no government, no state, no classes, gift economy), would end up with people sharing because they want to. People work because they would otherwise be bored.

We already produce more than sufficient food to feed everyone. We are post-scarcity. Even if everyone worked only half as much (or less) we would still have enough. Partly, this is because in the current system so much energy is going into unproductive labor (finance, including debt-collection and management, government, misc other bureaucracies).

----

What I've written above is one possible way a society might run, there are many many possibilities. The main point being, that as an anarchist, I would reject any society that wasn't free. And so central bureaucracies and similar are a big no no. But to quote Malatesta, "t is not right for us, to say the least, to fall into strife over mere hypotheses".


----

Anyway, this will be my last post on the matter (in this thread at least). I direct people who are interested in discussing anarchism (the left sort, not the fake sort), communism, or other stuff, to RevLeft. I don't post there, but they have other knowledgeable people who are more interested in banging their heads than me.

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State-less capitalist society = Mafia run society. Capitalist apologists who support such this, are not anarchists.
deadlizard
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April 17, 2011, 05:34:42 AM
 #28

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NghtRppr
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April 17, 2011, 05:39:02 AM
 #29

Your argument seems to be that scarcity+demand means that something should cost more. I disagree.

It's not a matter of how things should be. I have no opinion on that. It's a matter of how economics works which is a natural outcome of rational human nature. You're not going to overcome that through voluntary means, only by aggression. Humans have importance scales of goals and each loaf of bread we want to get occupies a place on that scale. If we limit the scope to talking about only loaves of bread and diamonds, my scale might look like this:

get 1st loaf of bread
get 2nd loaf of bread
get 3rd loaf of bread
get 4th loaf of bread
get 5th loaf of bread
get 1st diamond
get 6th loaf of bread
get 2nd diamond
get 7th loaf of bread
...

This scale represents how I rank each of these goals in importance from highest to lowest. The next goal I wish to achieve depends on how many of these goals I have already achieved. If I have 0 loaves of bread and I am offered the choice between a loaf of bread or a diamond then I will choose the loaf of bread. If I have 4 loaves of bread and offered the choice, I will still choose the bread. However, what happens when I have 5 loaves of bread? Well, according to my scale, the next most important goal I would like to achieve is to have a 1st diamond rather than a 6th loaf of bread. Therefore, I will choose the diamond. This is just basic rational human nature.

Now, let's say I have accomplished all these goals and I am forced to give up a loaf of bread or a diamond, which will I choose? Obviously, I'm going to give up the least important goal on this list, which is a 7th loaf of bread. Let's say I am forced to give up 2 of these things, this time I'll give up a 7th loaf of bread and a 2nd diamond. Again, this is just how basic rational human nature works, albeit extremely simplified, but it's still qualitatively the same.

If you can find a way to short circuit these value scales that we all have (without sticking a gun in their face or threatening to imprison them) then you can make people rather give up a doctor than a janitor. Rather than doing that, it's easier to just allow people to fulfill as many goals as they can and eventually we will start concerning ourselves with the least important goals, like caring about janitors.
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April 17, 2011, 05:41:21 AM
 #30

I actually also think that at some point in the future, we will be in a post-scarcity society, where everyone will work on a pure volontary basis (work based on desire, not need), and where everything will basically be free.


But I also think such a society will be reached smoothly, not via some kind of communist revolution.



Basically free market will gradually price things for their true value, which will slowly tend to zero.  We won't go from a money-based society to a moneyless society in a discontinuous manner.  It will be a slow process regulated by market forces.  Prices will gradually fall as things get more and more easy to obtain.


You think we are currently already in this post-scarcity society.  I don't.   But I think it's not up to me or you to decide.  Only free market can tell.


In other words, I changed my mind and I think a moneyless society IS possible.  But we are so far from it that first we have to try a sound money, and then eventually price of stuffs will decrease if that is what economic reality wants.   Because with a sound money, what you call a moneyless society is a society where prices of all goods and services are zero.  There's no reason for going to non-zero to zero discontinuously.
NghtRppr
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April 17, 2011, 05:49:03 AM
 #31

But I also think such a society will be reached smoothly, not via some kind of communist revolution.

It will be reached by fulfilling all of our goals until we are so far down on our lists that "being a good neighbor" or "running around the Star Trek Enterprise in a unitard" is near the top of the list. Right now most people's lists are occupied with survival and basic pleasures.
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April 17, 2011, 05:52:31 AM
 #32

Grondilou, except for raw materials and energy.  But yes, i suspect that a free (NO IP) market, over long enought time, will reduce costs of everything else to zero.

"We will not find a solution to political problems in cryptography, but we can win a major battle in the arms race and gain a new territory of freedom for several years.

Governments are good at cutting off the heads of a centrally controlled networks, but pure P2P networks are holding their own."
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April 17, 2011, 11:50:16 PM
 #33

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Well, those people seem to think that everyone should earn 0$, whatever their job is.

Amazing, isn't it?

If everything costs $0 it doesn't matter if everyone earns $0.

Those people have a good point, they are just a few decades (centuries?) early.

Until the post scarcity economy arrives money will remain a necessary evil.



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April 18, 2011, 06:00:02 AM
 #34

Everyone on the planet moves to Australia and is given a 1/4 acre block. Then we still have Queensland and the rest of the world left vacant. We are living in a pre scarcity world and we somehow manage to produce scarcity by our very nature. "Post scarcity" is a utopian pipe dream

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grondilu
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April 18, 2011, 06:05:33 AM
 #35

Then we still have Queensland and the rest of the world left vacant. We are living in a pre scarcity world and we somehow manage to produce scarcity by our very nature. "Post scarcity" is a utopian pipe dream


Utopias are nice, as long as noone tries too hard to make them come true.
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April 18, 2011, 06:59:32 AM
 #36

I don't see how you guys ever expect to abolish scarcity. Even if it can be achieved with commodities (and I don't think it can), there is still scarcity in labor; i.e. it doesn't matter that I am getting this floor for free, i'm certainly not going to cook bread for you with nothing in return.

also

Quote
Two the USSR was not in anyway communist, though it may have started out as an attempt to bring about an end result of communism. Why wasn't it communist? Because communism is classless and stateless, two things which existed in all the "communist" countries. At most the USSR claimed to be moving towards communism.

That just made my day. It's hilarious how hardcore socialist will deny that the actual and past communist states aren't communist. Seriously? How in the world are you going to enforce socialism without a state... goddamn kids

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NghtRppr
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April 18, 2011, 07:23:24 AM
 #37

Even if it can be achieved with commodities (and I don't think it can), there is still scarcity in labor; i.e. it doesn't matter that I am getting this floor for free, i'm certainly not going to cook bread for you with nothing in return.

Robot slaves.
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April 18, 2011, 07:29:58 AM
 #38

Even if it can be achieved with commodities (and I don't think it can), there is still scarcity in labor; i.e. it doesn't matter that I am getting this floor for free, i'm certainly not going to cook bread for you with nothing in return.

Robot slaves.

shit, gotta get me one of those

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April 18, 2011, 07:37:45 AM
 #39

Even if it can be achieved with commodities (and I don't think it can), there is still scarcity in labor; i.e. it doesn't matter that I am getting this floor for free, i'm certainly not going to cook bread for you with nothing in return.

Robot slaves.
Sexy Robot Slaves.  Cool

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NghtRppr
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April 18, 2011, 07:39:42 AM
 #40

Even if it can be achieved with commodities (and I don't think it can), there is still scarcity in labor; i.e. it doesn't matter that I am getting this floor for free, i'm certainly not going to cook bread for you with nothing in return.

Robot slaves.
Sexy Robot Slaves.  Cool

Yeah, baby!
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