IRS says we are are criminals now

[keithers]

The ruling is pretty logical.  I have a tax background. Not sure what they would change it to.  But they may make it like oil well drilling.  This is better for miners.  More tax exemptions.

My return will be fun as I have  a  profit for 2013.  And bfl sent me  500 bucks from 2013 a few days ago.  yeah they are doing some refunds.

But I have btc in every manor.

Buy and hold

Mining.

cloud contracts.  I scored well on DzCoops group buys 5,6,9,10,11,12.

Selling gear on ebay.  

So it will be a fun return.

Actually this is a good thing for BTC   making it as legit as possible  is the best that can happen.

Correct me if I am wrong...many sectors of oil exploration have income that is 100% tax deductible?    I had a few clients that their sole income was from oil exploration, but we had trouble getting financing for them because typically banks or investors only calculate income off of "taxable income"  When their income was not taxed at all, it posed underwriting problems...

Well even though I have an accounting  degree and  worked for the IRS for a while.  My knowledge  of oil tax law is very small. But the idea that an Oil well is a depleting asset is allowed for oil.

  
Here is a fact  bitcoins are depleting as I type boom!! a block just depleted the 21 mill coin well by 25 more coins..  I know a big coin farm in the USA will want treatment just like oil companies get for a depleting asset.  This will happen needs to happen and this will boost BTC mining in the USA.

 But what the F just an opinion  by a 50 plus year old guy In NJ. .

 

PS
I would like to see how long before this takes to go into a courtroom.

I am sure it will be in court before the end of 2015, but likely even before the end of 2014.  People by nature hate paying taxes, and governments by nature hate people who don't pay taxes.

[AnonyMint]

According to the link above, if we pay for pretty much anything with Bitcoin, we are obligated to report the trade of "property" to the IRS and issue a 1099 MISC to the receiver of the Bitcoin.

That is not true.  The 1099 requirement is only for a business and only for payments in excess of $600 for goods or services to an independent contract.

Incorrect. It applies to anyone, and the $600 is the aggregate for the annual reporting period.

Before you give tax advice, make sure you don't want to be sued for giving incorrect advice.

Disclaimer: I am not giving tax advice, please consult your own professional adviser.

Funny I agree with part of what you say.  600 usd payment needs to be reported.  no matter whom you paid it to.

  But a single 600 or greater not  30 x  21 = 630  total.


http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf   see question 12 below

Q-12: Is a payment made using virtual currency subject to information reporting?
A-12: A payment made using virtual currency is subject to information reporting to the same extent as any other payment made in property. For example, a person who in the course of a trade or business makes a payment of fixed and determinable income using virtual currency with a value of $600 or more to a U.S. non-exempt recipient in a taxable year is required to report the payment to the IRS and to the payee. Examples of payments of fixed and determinable income include rent, salaries, wages, premiums, annuities, and compensation.

As I wrote previously, $600 or more in a "taxable year" to the same recipient. That can include any number of payments throughout the taxable year.

If you make many small payments to many different recipients, you may fall under reporting requirements as a money transmitter, etc..

In any case, whether you must report or not the payments, you still owe the taxes due.

And there won't be any changes to this. As this is not a new interpretation. This is merely the way the current tax law applies. I even predicted this exact ruling. Go search my archives here.

[Harley997]

we are obligated to report the trade of "property" to the IRS and issue a 1099 MISC to the receiver of the Bitcoin.

You only need to report transactions over $600, this was part of obamacare. I do believe that this $600 requirement was later repealed.

As long as your report any gains to the IRS at tax time then you are safe from prosecution.

[sukamasoto]

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-drop/n-14-21.pdf

According to the link above, if we pay for pretty much anything with Bitcoin, we are obligated to report the trade of "property" to the IRS and issue a 1099 MISC to the receiver of the Bitcoin.

Further, all miners are required to report mined Bitcoin as income.

Does anybody see this being efficiently enforced?

Is this going to be yet another law that the administration is going to "selectively enforce" depending on whether or you not you donated to the correct campaign?

Tyranny is nearby.

if you like it then it will make a loss of miners

[scryptasicminer]

Don't see how it can be enforced effectively around the globe.

[Fatpony]

Pardon my French, but IRS can go down on their knees and well, you get it right?

[Ron~Popeil]

Pardon my French, but IRS can go down on their knees and well, you get it right?

Seconded. They have no way to verify how much bit coin I hold. I don't plan to cash any out but if I did I would use local bit coins to do it.

[jeffersonairplane]

IRS will try and stop anything related to Bitcoin. They shouldn't dictate whether or not BTC mining is an income or not, it's crap.

[Harley997]

Don't see how it can be enforced effectively around the globe.

It will not be attempted to be enforced around the globe.

The IRS will only attempt to enforce rules in the US and for US citizens.

[cookiemonster7]

They are the criminals and all involved with the IRS should be arrested and tried for treason.

[jeffersonairplane]

They are the criminals and all involved with the IRS should be arrested and tried for treason.

Okay that is a bit far. I mentioned this before, but the fact is that they are desperately looking for ways to control BTC as it takes out the middle man,the bank in this case. And who runs the bank? The Government, and what is the IRS? The Government

[Searing]

Pardon my French, but IRS can go down on their knees and well, you get it right?

Seconded. They have no way to verify how much bit coin I hold. I don't plan to cash any out but if I did I would use local bit coins to do it.

'

If you are in USA and did wire xfers (and your bank messes up on them) and they are over 10k and you sign the following disclaimer....."i am not
using wire xfers internationally to hide taxes" .....your bank then calls you up says you are 'suspicious' and they are gonna freeze your account
 and they are gonna report you to IRS/SEC
etc for money laundering (they messed up 6x on a money order looked like 60k to the computer somewhere up the line at the bank..that red flag'd such) and
you need to come to the bank with your business tax forms for bitcoin mining and/other proof you are not a 'drug lord' i guess

yep happened to me...but i got to thinking that with 10 attempted wire xfers (me having to sign the form each time) and only 4 of them going thru
(of which 3 were refunded adding to the problem) ...that maybe just maybe in that 2013 was my first year mining I should file a tax return 2013
be a home business and eventually depreciate my equip purchases and pay the nice IRS people 25% on what I mine because I just KNEW this was
not gonna end well..getting the stink eye at the bank..weird looks ....too much paper on me..boy was i right!

and yep I was correct being paranoid paid off big time....took my tax forms to the bank .pointed out on my statement (which they never bothered to
look at) that 6 wire xfers were their fault and canceled the same day...much yelling at people by higher ups on wasted time etc

so yeah w/o the tax home biz stuff on virtual mining I'd be in a world of hurt with the IRS right now...(I think it is mandatory 1yr prison and up to 5 yrs
if deliberate tax evasion ..er gee IRS I don't know where them 40 coin came from ...yep I'd be toast now ..in a loving relations ship with 'bubba' in prision!)

So..with equip depreciation playing the deduction game I likely will get around the 25% tax on anything i mine or close to such and likely the rules will
be changed to something more sensible in 2015 (i hear both parties in gov't are not happy with the IRS calling it land/property etc)

So my point is IF YOU DID A  WIRE XFER OR USED A BTC EXCHANGE the IRS CAN find you...make sure you know how 'vulnerable' you are on such
miner purchases...also coinbase/btc exhcange/ etc are all 'bank legal' now in the USA ....in order for them to work they now have all the info on you
a bank does...so random audit/mistakes/whatever....unless you buy with BTC outside of exchanges ...miners with cash etc you could find yourself
in my boat

(alas...they got me boys.....don't look back legally 'supposed' to get taxed on 25% of stuff I mine (do get equip depreciation of 100% 5yrs thou) ....so
far have not legally have to paid last year any tax and thru 'legit deductions' same is likely this year..but it is a lot of dodging about and ducking around with the
CPA don't ya know

so yeah...keep the above in mind imho and if it does 'smell fishy' and gets weird at your bank....yep pays to be paranoid ...sometimes they really are out to get you!

needless to say i have a new bank

hope this helps save someone else alas I be lost now... 'legal' shudder

Searing

[Erdogan]

It is time to go deep into yourself, to your heart, and find that forgotten, big, fat, sacred NO.

[Searing]

It is time to go deep into yourself, to your heart, and find that forgotten, big, fat, sacred NO.

too late for me ...I'm like an otter that got tagged with a radio collar...the rest of you run........ run i say!

Searing

[DrG]

It is time to go deep into yourself, to your heart, and find that forgotten, big, fat, sacred NO.

too late for me ...I'm like an otter that got tagged with a radio collar...the rest of you run........ run i say!

Searing

Oh God.  I don't know why buy that made me laugh so hard.  Save yourselves!

[Ron~Popeil]

Pardon my French, but IRS can go down on their knees and well, you get it right?

Seconded. They have no way to verify how much bit coin I hold. I don't plan to cash any out but if I did I would use local bit coins to do it.

'

If you are in USA and did wire xfers (and your bank messes up on them) and they are over 10k and you sign the following disclaimer....."i am not
using wire xfers internationally to hide taxes" .....your bank then calls you up says you are 'suspicious' and they are gonna freeze your account
 and they are gonna report you to IRS/SEC
etc for money laundering (they messed up 6x on a money order looked like 60k to the computer somewhere up the line at the bank..that red flag'd such) and
you need to come to the bank with your business tax forms for bitcoin mining and/other proof you are not a 'drug lord' i guess

yep happened to me...but i got to thinking that with 10 attempted wire xfers (me having to sign the form each time) and only 4 of them going thru
(of which 3 were refunded adding to the problem) ...that maybe just maybe in that 2013 was my first year mining I should file a tax return 2013
be a home business and eventually depreciate my equip purchases and pay the nice IRS people 25% on what I mine because I just KNEW this was
not gonna end well..getting the stink eye at the bank..weird looks ....too much paper on me..boy was i right!

and yep I was correct being paranoid paid off big time....took my tax forms to the bank .pointed out on my statement (which they never bothered to
look at) that 6 wire xfers were their fault and canceled the same day...much yelling at people by higher ups on wasted time etc

so yeah w/o the tax home biz stuff on virtual mining I'd be in a world of hurt with the IRS right now...(I think it is mandatory 1yr prison and up to 5 yrs
if deliberate tax evasion ..er gee IRS I don't know where them 40 coin came from ...yep I'd be toast now ..in a loving relations ship with 'bubba' in prision!)

So..with equip depreciation playing the deduction game I likely will get around the 25% tax on anything i mine or close to such and likely the rules will
be changed to something more sensible in 2015 (i hear both parties in gov't are not happy with the IRS calling it land/property etc)

So my point is IF YOU DID A  WIRE XFER OR USED A BTC EXCHANGE the IRS CAN find you...make sure you know how 'vulnerable' you are on such
miner purchases...also coinbase/btc exhcange/ etc are all 'bank legal' now in the USA ....in order for them to work they now have all the info on you
a bank does...so random audit/mistakes/whatever....unless you buy with BTC outside of exchanges ...miners with cash etc you could find yourself
in my boat

(alas...they got me boys.....don't look back legally 'supposed' to get taxed on 25% of stuff I mine (do get equip depreciation of 100% 5yrs thou) ....so
far have not legally have to paid last year any tax and thru 'legit deductions' same is likely this year..but it is a lot of dodging about and ducking around with the
CPA don't ya know

so yeah...keep the above in mind imho and if it does 'smell fishy' and gets weird at your bank....yep pays to be paranoid ...sometimes they really are out to get you!

needless to say i have a new bank

hope this helps save someone else alas I be lost now... 'legal' shudder

Searing

That sucks man. Thanks for sharing the information though. Hopefully people heed the warning.

[Searing]

Pardon my French, but IRS can go down on their knees and well, you get it right?

Seconded. They have no way to verify how much bit coin I hold. I don't plan to cash any out but if I did I would use local bit coins to do it.

'

If you are in USA and did wire xfers (and your bank messes up on them) and they are over 10k and you sign the following disclaimer....."i am not
using wire xfers internationally to hide taxes" .....your bank then calls you up says you are 'suspicious' and they are gonna freeze your account
 and they are gonna report you to IRS/SEC
etc for money laundering (they messed up 6x on a money order looked like 60k to the computer somewhere up the line at the bank..that red flag'd such) and
you need to come to the bank with your business tax forms for bitcoin mining and/other proof you are not a 'drug lord' i guess

yep happened to me...but i got to thinking that with 10 attempted wire xfers (me having to sign the form each time) and only 4 of them going thru
(of which 3 were refunded adding to the problem) ...that maybe just maybe in that 2013 was my first year mining I should file a tax return 2013
be a home business and eventually depreciate my equip purchases and pay the nice IRS people 25% on what I mine because I just KNEW this was
not gonna end well..getting the stink eye at the bank..weird looks ....too much paper on me..boy was i right!

and yep I was correct being paranoid paid off big time....took my tax forms to the bank .pointed out on my statement (which they never bothered to
look at) that 6 wire xfers were their fault and canceled the same day...much yelling at people by higher ups on wasted time etc

so yeah w/o the tax home biz stuff on virtual mining I'd be in a world of hurt with the IRS right now...(I think it is mandatory 1yr prison and up to 5 yrs
if deliberate tax evasion ..er gee IRS I don't know where them 40 coin came from ...yep I'd be toast now ..in a loving relations ship with 'bubba' in prision!)

So..with equip depreciation playing the deduction game I likely will get around the 25% tax on anything i mine or close to such and likely the rules will
be changed to something more sensible in 2015 (i hear both parties in gov't are not happy with the IRS calling it land/property etc)

So my point is IF YOU DID A  WIRE XFER OR USED A BTC EXCHANGE the IRS CAN find you...make sure you know how 'vulnerable' you are on such
miner purchases...also coinbase/btc exhcange/ etc are all 'bank legal' now in the USA ....in order for them to work they now have all the info on you
a bank does...so random audit/mistakes/whatever....unless you buy with BTC outside of exchanges ...miners with cash etc you could find yourself
in my boat

(alas...they got me boys.....don't look back legally 'supposed' to get taxed on 25% of stuff I mine (do get equip depreciation of 100% 5yrs thou) ....so
far have not legally have to paid last year any tax and thru 'legit deductions' same is likely this year..but it is a lot of dodging about and ducking around with the
CPA don't ya know

so yeah...keep the above in mind imho and if it does 'smell fishy' and gets weird at your bank....yep pays to be paranoid ...sometimes they really are out to get you!

needless to say i have a new bank

hope this helps save someone else alas I be lost now... 'legal' shudder

Searing

That sucks man. Thanks for sharing the information though. Hopefully people heed the warning.

Admitedly...if the bank had not messed up etc...i likely would have just sat on coin and waited till 2015 when likely congress will improve on or replace
the current tax guidelines of 2013....and then I would have announced if I wanted to be legal on a better setup 'eureka i had a good year in 2015' and
jumped on the parade then

it is not all bad I'm allowed 50% deduction on equip first year. usually it is 20% for 5 years (btc miners at this point are considered computer equip by my CPA
.other stuff last year as a new biz etc....so on 16k i made thought i'd have to pay 4K
only paid like 550 usd and that was to show a profit (need to show a profit for at least 3 of 5yrs I think?)..this year likely I also won't pay taxes...will start to taper it off
into the last few years here...so the way it works is even at 20% deduction the remaining years and 25% on gross mining if i keep things sensible I'll be very
close to NO taxes...maybe a bit of a loss..but then again considering the alternative i tripped into could be worse

Ideal situation is congress gets involved after fall elections say spring 2015 and gets rid of the IRS land/etc issues and maybe goes back to 20% if you spend the
coin and you equip purchases are NOT deductable ie your risk ...the way I was informally told in summer of 2013 it would shake out...asked CPA about bitcoin...
did you sell any? i said nope ..she said no problem

if that was to come to pass my CPA says it is LIKELY I'd be able to deduct the remaining equip from 2013 to 2015 and yet benifit from hopefully the more
sensible regulations imho say in 2015...if that happens I'll look like a bloody genius...if not well I'll probably muck on thru and jump thru some hoops and pay little
or no taxes anyway

big advantage is btc goes to 10k a coin i buy a house boat and IRS comes by ..how did you get the income...i can laugh ...i'm so squeaky legal clean now I smell
of pinecones and peppermint heh....ie "can't touch this'

the alternative of an alternate choice and ignoring the bank issues warning signs still gives me the 'heebie geebies"

I know others who are also legal ..pawn shop owner ..guys who sell gold/silver as a biz...they are all looked at closely...so they play by the rules

but yeah...if you can stay anon sit on coin till 2015 when hopefully rules are made better by congress on taxes.it is likely then you can 'come out' and go legal
and say "by golly to the IRS I had a great year in person to person trading!" heh

so could be a lot worse don't ya know but them wire xfers to knc and others for miners over 10k are gonna get some of us in trouble imho

Searing

[percocet]

I considered the IRS ruling a huge positive for Bitcoin as it basically legitimized it and provided a precedent for other countries to follow.

Later this year when a truckload of wall street money comes pouring it, remember that it wouldn't have happened if the IRS did not clarify their position on Bitcoin.

[Searing]

I considered the IRS ruling a huge positive for Bitcoin as it basically legitimized it and provided a precedent for other countries to follow.

Later this year when a truckload of wall street money comes pouring it, remember that it wouldn't have happened if the IRS did not clarify their position on Bitcoin.

I agree somewhat but the idea they if you bought a bitcoin for 2c in 2009 or some such and used that bitcoin to buy a TV now ..you have to pay 598.98 capital
gains tax is kinda dumb

other stuff...

but yeah likely the IRS will never LET you mine $$$ out of air w/o getting their 25% off gross profits...esp if it all goes to giant corp mega farms in the next year

again i suspect it will go back to 20% capital gains tax if you sell the coin...maybe some more breaks for miners in usa

but likely mining will go to those places like (denmark?) that want to be a bitcoin hub not tax anything just to get the revenue in their country (belize?)

anyway so it goes

Searing

[Marlo Stanfield]

Although it's obvious quite a few people will be ignoring this and continuing on paying for things in btc and not giving it a second thought, this does pose a problem for quite a few people who plan to do it the legal way. What needs to happen is a wallet that fully integrates the IRS guidelines and automates whatever requirement they have so that you can simple include that part of your taxes with the full report. I expect there will be a sizable market for a wallet like that and whoever can implement it effectively will get the first shot at the market of people who plan to follow the IRS's regulations.