More proof that savegox.com is a sham.

[sobriket]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/219613733/sunlot-holdings-proposed-rehabilitation-plan-ENGLISH#fullscreen

In actuality, Mr. Karpeles has often admitted that, because we are a team with rich experience and high-level skills, we have better management resources to manage MTGOX company in place of MTGOX company and their customers than the current management.

Jesus Fuckin' Christ! First, Jed McCaleb hands over Mt Gox to Mark Karpeles because of his skill sets, and now the hacked together team wants it handed over to them. I suggest letting this dude from Finland run it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p3c4viNMNk

You're totally killing me Phinnaeus, hahahaha

[Phinnaeus Gage]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/219613733/sunlot-holdings-proposed-rehabilitation-plan-ENGLISH#fullscreen

In actuality, Mr. Karpeles has often admitted that, because we are a team with rich experience and high-level skills, we have better management resources to manage MTGOX company in place of MTGOX company and their customers than the current management.

Jesus Fuckin' Christ! First, Jed McCaleb hands over Mt Gox to Mark Karpeles because of his skill sets, and now the hacked together team wants it handed over to them. I suggest letting this dude from Finland run it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p3c4viNMNk

You're totally killing me Phinnaeus, hahahaha

[tins]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/219613733/sunlot-holdings-proposed-rehabilitation-plan-ENGLISH#fullscreen

In actuality, Mr. Karpeles has often admitted that, because we are a team with rich experience and high-level skills, we have better management resources to manage MTGOX company in place of MTGOX company and their customers than the current management.

Jesus Fuckin' Christ! First, Jed McCaleb hands over Mt Gox to Mark Karpeles because of his skill sets, and now the hacked together team wants it handed over to them. I suggest letting this dude from Finland run it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0p3c4viNMNk

You're totally killing me Phinnaeus, hahahaha

That chart pretty much sums it up.

[atc1]

Heh,just let the law take it's course. There's no saying whether or not they found any of the "lost" coins,and who is supposed to be given priority even if some of the coins are found? Let the authorities deal with it,the ball's in their court now. No one knows if they'll even return the coins/money from liquidated coins to their owners. What's all this 3rd party initiative to deal with the case themselves?

[yantis]

I cut and pasted my response form the other Brock hate thread:

Truth from a long time friend, enemy, business partner & competitor:

Pretty amazing the amount of damage someone can do with some fake facebook accounts. I have to wonder what the agenda is here and if it has something to do with the Bitcoin Foundations elections...or worse someone trying to hurt Bitcoin as Brock is one of the most outspoken people in the Bitcoin space.

I clicked on Brock's timeline on his real facebook for the supposed above dates and he was in Los Angeles, California and not in Spain. Don't let someone troll you with fake facebook accounts.
Instead of reading all this made up crap and coming up with a bad opinion I suggest you reach out to him and talk to him yourself.

The true facts are pretty simple:
- Brock was associated with Rector when he was a teenager. I don't know any details. I personally think he was a victim. He has never mentioned it and I don't bring it up.
- Think about this one: Brock was my #1 competitor. If I could have used it against him I probably would have if there was something to use.
- Most everything is about money. People sue and make stuff up to try to get you to pay something. Sadly this is how it is.
- If you noticed on the lawsuit on his partners suing Brock for cheating his partners I took no part of because it was mostly lies.
- Brock makes more money for his investors that you know. He might fail in 3 out of 4 of his companies but that fourth one makes so much money for his investors which is why they keep investing in them.
- People get fired from businesses which why you only hear their side of the story and its always negative.
- I can also guarantee you without a doubt is Brock is a lover of women (so much that I fear that it keeps getting him into trouble).

From someone who knows all the facts. There is some agenda being played out here. What a better way to take one of Bitcoin's star advocates and link him to Paedophilia. This is FUD in the worst possible way.

As for Sunlot I suggest you guys read the FAQ before bashing it and make your own opinions and reach out to John if something isn't on there and get a real answer. Its your money after all.
http://www.savegox.com/?page_id=35

[hlynur]

I cut and pasted my response form the other Brock hate thread:

Truth from a long time friend, enemy, business partner & competitor:

Pretty amazing the amount of damage someone can do with some fake facebook accounts. I have to wonder what the agenda is here and if it has something to do with the Bitcoin Foundations elections...or worse someone trying to hurt Bitcoin as Brock is one of the most outspoken people in the Bitcoin space.

I clicked on Brock's timeline on his real facebook for the supposed above dates and he was in Los Angeles, California and not in Spain. Don't let someone troll you with fake facebook accounts.
Instead of reading all this made up crap and coming up with a bad opinion I suggest you reach out to him and talk to him yourself.

The true facts are pretty simple:
- Brock was associated with Rector when he was a teenager. I don't know any details. I personally think he was a victim. He has never mentioned it and I don't bring it up.
- Think about this one: Brock was my #1 competitor. If I could have used it against him I probably would have if there was something to use.
- Most everything is about money. People sue and make stuff up to try to get you to pay something. Sadly this is how it is.
- If you noticed on the lawsuit on his partners suing Brock for cheating his partners I took no part of because it was mostly lies.
- Brock makes more money for his investors that you know. He might fail in 3 out of 4 of his companies but that fourth one makes so much money for his investors which is why they keep investing in them.
- People get fired from businesses which why you only hear their side of the story and its always negative.
- I can also guarantee you without a doubt is Brock is a lover of women (so much that I fear that it keeps getting him into trouble).

From someone who knows all the facts. There is some agenda being played out here. What a better way to take one of Bitcoin's star advocates and link him to Paedophilia. This is FUD in the worst possible way.

As for Sunlot I suggest you guys read the FAQ before bashing it and make your own opinions and reach out to John if something isn't on there and get a real answer. Its your money after all.
http://www.savegox.com/?page_id=35

so apparently you're saying somebody registered most of the fake accounts in 09/10/2012 and finally timed a pic upload on 02/19/2014 perfectly to Pierce's activities on his original account to draw the connection?
this guy really must have put some work into this.

Phinnaeus while you're highly entertaining I'm afraid you're looking at facebook bots.

Damn, these Facebook Bots are almost human:

https://www.facebook.com/brockpierce



https://www.facebook.com/brock.rector

[JayJuanGee]

I cut and pasted my response form the other Brock hate thread:

Truth from a long time friend, enemy, business partner & competitor:

Pretty amazing the amount of damage someone can do with some fake facebook accounts. I have to wonder what the agenda is here and if it has something to do with the Bitcoin Foundations elections...or worse someone trying to hurt Bitcoin as Brock is one of the most outspoken people in the Bitcoin space.

I clicked on Brock's timeline on his real facebook for the supposed above dates and he was in Los Angeles, California and not in Spain. Don't let someone troll you with fake facebook accounts.
Instead of reading all this made up crap and coming up with a bad opinion I suggest you reach out to him and talk to him yourself.

The true facts are pretty simple:
- Brock was associated with Rector when he was a teenager. I don't know any details. I personally think he was a victim. He has never mentioned it and I don't bring it up.
- Think about this one: Brock was my #1 competitor. If I could have used it against him I probably would have if there was something to use.
- Most everything is about money. People sue and make stuff up to try to get you to pay something. Sadly this is how it is.
- If you noticed on the lawsuit on his partners suing Brock for cheating his partners I took no part of because it was mostly lies.
- Brock makes more money for his investors that you know. He might fail in 3 out of 4 of his companies but that fourth one makes so much money for his investors which is why they keep investing in them.
- People get fired from businesses which why you only hear their side of the story and its always negative.
- I can also guarantee you without a doubt is Brock is a lover of women (so much that I fear that it keeps getting him into trouble).

From someone who knows all the facts. There is some agenda being played out here. What a better way to take one of Bitcoin's star advocates and link him to Paedophilia. This is FUD in the worst possible way.

As for Sunlot I suggest you guys read the FAQ before bashing it and make your own opinions and reach out to John if something isn't on there and get a real answer. Its your money after all.
http://www.savegox.com/?page_id=35

Yantis:  You make a lot of good points.  

From watching the video linked above, Brock seems to be very articulate about bitcoin and has a lot of experience with bitcoin projects and good and innovating ideas.  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pBd-OD9Rns)

Whether or NOT his participation in any savegox plan will be accepted by the Japanese court is still to be seen.  It seems a bit problematic that the Japanese court had already seemed to have decided to go forth with liquidation;  Accordingly, Brock and various other proposals have to convince the court to reverse itself and that some kind of rehabilitation of GOX would be the better path.

Personally, I believe that a lot of very good ideas are presented in the SaveGox FAQ, and there seems to be quite  a bit of transparency in the questions that are answered in the FAQ.  Certainly, it would NOT be good if genuine attempts to reimburse GOX account holders was NOT made, and the rehabilitation were merely a form of vulture capitalism.... or even a considerable problem if the GOX rehabilitation were to turn out to be a government ploy.

NONETHELESS, some kind of GOX rehabilitation seems better than liquidation, and hopefully the japanese court is seriously considering the various proposals and will arrive at a solution that is best for the GOX coin holders rather than merely protecting Gox business owners, such as Karpeles.

Who knows whether any GOX rehabilitation plan would ultimately resolve the various issues regarding the lost (or stolen) coins, but it may be worth several million to adequately investigate the matter.  So far in spite of so much passage of time, there remains a lot of unanswered questions and purported facts that just do NOT seem to add up to anything other than some kind of insider running away with the coins (that is if more of the BTC do NOT show up).  








 

[Aquent]

Phinnaeus Gage

Can we get a summary please of what exactly you are alleging. It's a lot to go through.

Thanks

[JayJuanGee]

Phinnaeus Gage

Can we get a summary please of what exactly you are alleging. It's a lot to go through.

Thanks

When there are so many character attacks, and a lack of a clear and substantive outline and/or argument, one surely must wonder whether there is any validity to the claims or if it is merely spreading FUD. 

Seems like the very articulate proponents of bitcoins are frequently being attacked based on allegations that may be stretches of the truth or expecting some kind of inferences to be made about facts that do NOT exist.

[Bit_Happy]

Phinnaeus Gage

Can we get a summary please of what exactly you are alleging. It's a lot to go through.

Thanks

When there are so many character attacks, and a lack of a clear and substantive outline and/or argument, one surely must wonder whether there is any validity to the claims...

Here is a clear and substantive outline:
yantis' (interesting and effective) re-post in this thread is (partly) a direct response to this list.

I think it would be pretty irresponsible to not do a thorough background check on each prospective member.

A thorough background check
I did some checking and there is little (if any) doubt that Brock Pierce:

1) Repeatedly starts (and helps to start) companies that lose many millions of investor funds.
2) Allegedly cheated a partner for a huge sum in a stock deal.
3a) Left the country when he knew some "wild parties" had gone way too far.
3b) Was sued for child rape by more than one (alleged) victim.

I think the above is reasonably accurate, the sources are (relatively) easy to find on google and in current threads here.

To be fair, in a recent video Brock Pierce seemed like a great spokesperson for Bitcoin.
If the world is ready to completely forgive "thieves and (alleged) pedos", then he's the perfect man to help lead BTC into the future.


<end of original post>

I would add that the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" applies to court cases.
My interest in this story spiked when I read Brock left the country with his "sex crime" partners.
I viewed "fleeing" the country as a strong sign of guilt.
If that is wrong, then I am very sorry.

[JayJuanGee]

Phinnaeus Gage

Can we get a summary please of what exactly you are alleging. It's a lot to go through.

Thanks

When there are so many character attacks, and a lack of a clear and substantive outline and/or argument, one surely must wonder whether there is any validity to the claims...

Here is a clear and substantive outline:
yantis' (interesting and effective) re-post in this thread is (partly) a direct response to this list.

I think it would be pretty irresponsible to not do a thorough background check on each prospective member.

A thorough background check
I did some checking and there is little (if any) doubt that Brock Pierce:

1) Repeatedly starts (and helps to start) companies that lose many millions of investor funds.
2) Allegedly cheated a partner for a huge sum in a stock deal.
3a) Left the country when he knew some "wild parties" had gone way too far.
3b) Was sued for child rape by more than one (alleged) victim.

I think the above is reasonably accurate, the sources are (relatively) easy to find on google and in current threads here.

To be fair, in a recent video Brock Pierce seemed like a great spokesperson for Bitcoin.
If the world is ready to completely forgive "thieves and (alleged) pedos", then he's the perfect man to help lead BTC into the future.


<end of original post>

I would add that the concept of "innocent until proven guilty" applies to court cases.
My interest in this story spiked when I read Brock left the country with his "sex crime" partners.
I viewed "fleeing" the country as a strong sign of guilt.
If that is wrong, then I am very sorry.

If the guy is NOT worthy to be involved in a potential GOX rehabilitation, then the Japanese court should be presented with that information or if the plan to save GOX is NOT legitimate and genuine, then the Japanese court should be presented with that, as well, in order that those matters can be taken into account.  To me, it seems that some plan to rehabilitate GOX, whether it involves Brock, or some other rehabilitation plan, would likely be much better for GOX account holders and bitcoin as a whole, rather than liquidation, yet certainly, I have NOT seen all of the evidence presented to the bankrupcy court.

[JorgeStolfi]

To be fair, in a recent video Brock Pierce seemed like a great spokesperson for Bitcoin.

It seems that in Bitcoinland there is only one crime, "not being a fan of bitcoin".  Things that should send people to jail, in any country, are quite OK; badges of honor, even.

And, conversely, anyone who praises bitcoin is, ipso facto, a thoroughly good person; who can be trusted to take money or bitcoins from other bitcoiners, without contracts and outside the reach of the law, and shower them with unmeasurable riches.

Like Danny Brewster... 

[JorgeStolfi]

By the way, completely off topic: the standard safety exit for a con man who sets up a scam company is to sell it when the scam begins to unravel.  Then the scammer claims "I don't owe anything, the debts were made by the company and I now have nothing to do with it", while the new owners say "What debts? The sales contract did not mention any debts."

Some examples of this trick can be found in the Bitcoin Stealing Hall of Fame (the BitcoinRain/MercadoBitcoin being one in my country) and other bitcoin sinkholes not listed there, such as this one.  Another interesting example has been reported here

Sorry for the interruption, now back to the threads's topic.

[JayJuanGee]

To be fair, in a recent video Brock Pierce seemed like a great spokesperson for Bitcoin.

It seems that in Bitcoinland there is only one crime, "not being a fan of bitcoin".  Things that should send people to jail, in any country, are quite OK; badges of honor, even.

And, conversely, anyone who praises bitcoin is, ipso facto, a thoroughly good person; who can be trusted to take money or bitcoins from other bitcoiners, without contracts and outside the reach of the law, and shower them with unmeasurable riches.

Like Danny Brewster...  

Jorge:  You have a way of tainting and perverting nearly any idea with your anti-bitcoin everything is a scam in bitcoin sentiment.  

Surely, some people can be persuaded by a con job in any currency or investment scheme, whether bitcoin or other scams that exist in many different currencies.  

It is NOT always easy to know whether some bitcoin evangelist is being disingenuous, but we know that if someone is fairly articulate and successful in bitcoin sphere, there are going to be attacks on the person's credibility and also lawsuits to attempt to take some of their money. 

The track record and reputation of persons in the bitcoin sphere can help to demonstrate if any person has a propensity for engaging in fraudulent and/or exploitation-type activities.  If it is true that Brock or any of his past business activities or his associates have engaged in fraudulent activities, then that kind of information should be presented to the japanese court.  Additionally, if it is shown that Brock is a person of low moral character, then that may be relevant (in some ways) to the court, as well.  

If Brock merely likes to fuck young women (of a consenting age), then that may NOT be a big deal, but if he is using stolen money or if he is engaging in some kind of exploitation of non-consenting people or if they are below the age of consent, then those kinds of behaviors may be relevant for the court to consider whether to accept his plan for a GOX "rehabilitation" and to divert assets from what I thought was an already made decision to liquidate GOX assets.

[JorgeStolfi]

The track record and reputation of persons in the bitcoin sphere can help to demonstrate if any person has a propensity for engaging in fraudulent and/or exploitation-type activities.

The track record and reputation of a person are independent of the currency, no?  One cannot be a con artist with euros but honest with dollars, a criminal with rubles but a respectable businessman with pounds.  If a guy has had "serial bad luck" directing money-based companies, why should one expect better success with a bitcoin-based one?

[Phinnaeus Gage]

The track record and reputation of persons in the bitcoin sphere can help to demonstrate if any person has a propensity for engaging in fraudulent and/or exploitation-type activities.

The track record and reputation of a person are independent of the currency, no?  One cannot be a con artist with euros but honest with dollars, a criminal with rubles but a respectable businessman with pounds.  If a guy has had "serial bad luck" directing money-based companies, why should one expect better success with a bitcoin-based one?

Actually, a serial VC would have better luck funneling v-c or c-c, then as each entity falls to the wayside, they could tell the VC's investors "Oops! But, get a load of this new thingy. Comes complete with 100K+ eager beavers."

[JayJuanGee]

The track record and reputation of persons in the bitcoin sphere can help to demonstrate if any person has a propensity for engaging in fraudulent and/or exploitation-type activities.

The track record and reputation of a person are independent of the currency, no?  One cannot be a con artist with euros but honest with dollars, a criminal with rubles but a respectable businessman with pounds.  If a guy has had "serial bad luck" directing money-based companies, why should one expect better success with a bitcoin-based one?

I agree with you that a person can be a con artist no matter what is the currency or the venue or the venture, and there may be various signs that a person is a con artist or whether the person is being genuine in describing the terms of the deal.

I believe the point that I was suggesting in my earlier post is that Brock seems to be very articulate and knowledgeable about bitcoin with a lot of experiences that seem genuine and that he also seems to be concerned about the prosperity and building of the bitcoin eco-system.  Those are good values, especially in the bitcoin world, b/c the bitcoin ecosystem is struggling for expansion... it's the incoming disruptive competitor that is currently at a disadvantage b/c it does NOT have a historical stake or track record.. like the dollar or like pay pal or like mastercard or like western union. 

Brock does NOT strike me as someone who is just attempting to get rich at the expense of others or that he is being manipulative.

If we all embark on a joint venture, then we may be taking a risk without knowing the outcome.  Some kinds of business ventures put one investor in more risky positions than others.  Most Angel investors, whether by dollar, euro or bitcoin, will structure various deals in such a way that they win no matter what is the outcome.  Structuring a deal to win no matter what is what smart investors due and those investors who have the leveraging power to accomplish such.  Structuring deals to win no matter what does NOT mean that angel investor(s) are tricking anyone or that they are just attempting to siphon money out of the enterprise without adding value.

I am NOT defending unscrupulous or illegal or fraudulent behavior b/c that is a different situation.  I am NOT going to assume some venture is fraudulent  merely based on the fact that the deal is structured in a way that the venture capitalist does NOT risk as much as other participants.  We NEED more facts before we come to a conclusion that some fraud or deception is taking place in the save GOX situation, and likely the Japanese court is in a better position to assess the GOX  deal than we are.. if the court is willing and able to receive and review the positions of various stake holders, then it can come to an informed decision about the best way forward.  In that regard, the court may come to the wrong conclusion if they are NOT sympathetic to account holders, if they are overly sympathetic to Karpeles et al, if they either they are neutral regarding bitcoin or worse if they want to sabotage bitcoin.

[Bit_Happy]

...
I believe the point that I was suggesting in my earlier post is that Brock seems to be very articulate and knowledgeable about bitcoin with a lot of experiences that seem genuine and that he also seems to be concerned about the prosperity and building of the bitcoin eco-system....

Brock also has many years of acting experience and a very questionable past.
I agree he currently puts on a good show.
Somehow I sense this movement is being turned into "controlled opposition".

[Phinnaeus Gage]

...
I believe the point that I was suggesting in my earlier post is that Brock seems to be very articulate and knowledgeable about bitcoin with a lot of experiences that seem genuine and that he also seems to be concerned about the prosperity and building of the bitcoin eco-system....

Brock also has many years of acting experience and a very questionable past.
I agree he currently puts on a good show.
Somehow I sense this movement is being turned into "controlled opposition".

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=594826

A lot of work was put into the video I linked, and I'm sure that those behind it didn't do it because they felt like trolling. They were echoing the sentiment based on facts as they became available to the ever going audience at the time.

[JorgeStolfi]

Some things that should be obvious to anyone who has lived for a while in the real world:
* Once you find that someone told a flat out lie (such as "MtGOX is solvent and all your coins are safe"), you should not give ANY weight to absolutely ANYTHING he has said or will say, by voice or in writing. Ditto for any digital data that he may produce.
* Any digital document or database may have been altered or faked.  Yes, even cryptographically signed ones..
* An anonymous leak may have been leaked by ANYONE. Yes, even by that guy.  Or that other guy.
* When a huge pile of money disappears from inside a company, the first suspects are its top executives, then other staff, then outsiders, then the cat, then time-traveling lizards from an antimatter galaxy, and only lastly errors/bugs/accidents etc..
* Scammers ALWAYS sound and look honest, competent, reliable, etc.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be scammers.
* Someone who made a pile of money with a scam, and walked away free with it, is strongly motivated to do it again.
* If someone can pocket a large pile of money without any risk of concrete punishment, he most surely will.