Bitcoin Security Holograms - Artwork Sample

[casascius]

I want 500, about how much would it cost?

I haven't prodded the manufacturer for any update, but I can't imagine that if I were to revisit it with the manufacturer, that it would be a whole lot different.

Now that I'm clearly willing to release a utility to generate private key circles, and nobody has to wonder if they'll be able to generate them on their own, this has a serious chance of passing this time around.  Should I start taking up a collection?

[1714021417]

1714021417

[allten]

I want 500, about how much would it cost?

I haven't prodded the manufacturer for any update, but I can't imagine that if I were to revisit it with the manufacturer, that it would be a whole lot different.

Now that I'm clearly willing to release a utility to generate private key circles, and nobody has to wonder if they'll be able to generate them on their own, this has a serious chance of passing this time around.  Should I start taking up a collection?

Is there a solution where anyone can get a batch of stickers at any time in any quantity?
If we could overcome this, I would be willing to fund much more.

How much does the manufacturing charge for repeat orders? Is it the same?

Here's an Idea: You put your name at the top so everyone knows you are the sole owner of the artwork and are the only one that can purchase them from the manufacture.
Have a window in the Middle.
Randomly serialize all stickers at the bottom.

When someone orders stickers. You make a document that you publicly sign stating the serial numbers purchased and to whom.
You also take precautions that the no one tries to impersonate a previous customer.

something a long those lines. I'm sure I'm missing some details not sure if any of them are deal killers.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

[adamstgBit]

I want 500, about how much would it cost?

I haven't prodded the manufacturer for any update, but I can't imagine that if I were to revisit it with the manufacturer, that it would be a whole lot different.

Now that I'm clearly willing to release a utility to generate private key circles, and nobody has to wonder if they'll be able to generate them on their own, this has a serious chance of passing this time around.  Should I start taking up a collection?

Is there a solution where anyone can get a batch of stickers at any time in any quantity?
If we could overcome this, I would be willing to fund much more.

How much does the manufacturing charge for repeat orders? Is it the same?

Here's an Idea: You put your name at the top so everyone knows you are the sole owner of the artwork and are the only one that can purchase them from the manufacture.
Have a window in the Middle.
Randomly serialize all stickers at the bottom.

When someone orders stickers. You make a document that you publicly sign stating the serial numbers purchased and to whom.
You also take precautions that the no one tries to impersonate a previous customer.

something a long those lines. I'm sure I'm missing some details not sure if any of them are deal killers.

Would appreciate your thoughts.

I do not think casascius likes the idea of other people having his exact same sticker. so that when someone sees his hologram they know it comes from him.
the art work would be changed slightly for each batch of stickers.  ex. mine would might say "Canadian Casascius".

[cbeast]

I am also interested in this. Stickers can be made with the same hologram, but with individual overlays.

[casascius]

I do not think casascius likes the idea of other people having his exact same sticker. so that when someone sees his hologram they know it comes from him.
the art work would be changed slightly for each batch of stickers.  ex. mine would might say "Canadian Casascius".

Someone creating their own physical bitcoin and using the name "Casascius" would probably be viewed as a counterfeiter or impersonator by the community.  The name Casascius essentially means "Mike Caldwell", more so than "physical bitcoin".  That also doesn't take into consideration how I'd respond to it, but I'm not going to bother going there because I don't think anyone seriously plans to attempt a "legit" physical bitcoin product using my name.  It's been hard enough convincing others to start one using their own name.  I also happen to have been born in Alberta, so the real Casascius is already "Canadian"...

[adamstgBit]

I do not think casascius likes the idea of other people having his exact same sticker. so that when someone sees his hologram they know it comes from him.
the art work would be changed slightly for each batch of stickers.  ex. mine would might say "Canadian Casascius".

Someone creating their own physical bitcoin and using the name "Casascius " would probably be viewed as a counterfeiter or impersonator by the community.  The name Casascius essentially means "Mike Caldwell", more so than "physical bitcoin".  That also doesn't take into consideration how I'd respond to it, but I'm not going to bother going there because I don't think anyone seriously plans to attempt a "legit" physical bitcoin product using my name.  It's been hard enough convincing others to start one using their own name.  I also happen to have been born in Alberta, so the real Casascius is already "Canadian"...

but the coins themselves are casascius design, that's why i would like to get casascius on the hologram.

[casascius]

but the coins themselves are casascius design, that's why i would like to get casascius on the hologram.

That's something I won't consent to.

That matters for the same reason I can't call up and order my own holograms that say "Official NFL Licensed Merchandise".

[adamstgBit]

but the coins themselves are casascius design, that's why i would like to get casascius on the hologram.

That's something I won't consent to.

That matters for the same reason I can't call up and order my own holograms that say "Official NFL Licensed Merchandise".

that's fine. the hologram will work just as good as long as its custom.

just wish i could get some kind of license to manufacture original casascius coins 

[adamstgBit]

I think I'm going to back out.

I shouldn't of bought so many blank coins, i wanted to use them as a way to sell bitcoins on ebay and be protected with the fact the i could prove i shipped something. this turned out to be a bad idea.  

I'll use my coins as a way to help people understand how bitcoins public / private keys work, their bitcoin will be safe without the hologram anyway.

of course i will continue to offer them with free shipping world wide for BTC or cash for local pick up in Montreal, see the thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=126834.0

I will add pics of the back of the coin, to make it clear their is no hologram on the back, but simply a clear sticker.

Thanks

[casascius]

I think I'm going to back out.

I shouldn't of bought so many blank coins, i wanted to use them as a away to sell bitcoins on ebay and be protected with the fact the i could prove i shipped something. this turned out to be a bad idea.  

I'll use my coins as a way to help people understand how bitcoins public / private keys work, their bitcoin will be safe without the hologram anyway.

of course i will continue to offer them with free shipping world wide for BTC or cash for local pick up in Montreal, see the thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=126834.0

I will add pics of the back of the coin, to make it clear their is no hologram on the back, but simply a clear sticker.

Thanks

It's actually a great idea, it's just best if it doesn't come with a confusion as to who has seen the private keys.  A custom hologram of any kind means you've put some thought and effort into producing your coins and gives you credibility of any kind, which doesn't depend on using my name.  The name "casascius" on a physical bitcoin means that nobody but me has seen the private key, a distinction that is lost if I say go ahead and make holograms with my name.  If someone created "billybob" holograms, they'd serve exactly the same purpose... the name "casascius" is nothing more than a word I simply made up.

On the other hand, I deliberately left my name off the front side of the coin specifically so the coin design could be used by others to make their own coins.

[allten]

I think I'm going to back out.

I shouldn't of bought so many blank coins, i wanted to use them as a away to sell bitcoins on ebay and be protected with the fact the i could prove i shipped something. this turned out to be a bad idea.  

I'll use my coins as a way to help people understand how bitcoins public / private keys work, their bitcoin will be safe without the hologram anyway.

of course i will continue to offer them with free shipping world wide for BTC or cash for local pick up in Montreal, see the thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=126834.0

I will add pics of the back of the coin, to make it clear their is no hologram on the back, but simply a clear sticker.

Thanks

It's actually a great idea, it's just best if it doesn't come with a confusion as to who has seen the private keys.  A custom hologram of any kind means you've put some thought and effort into producing your coins and gives you credibility of any kind, which doesn't depend on using my name.  The name "casascius" on a physical bitcoin means that nobody but me has seen the private key, a distinction that is lost if I say go ahead and make holograms with my name.  If someone created "billybob" holograms, they'd serve exactly the same purpose... the name "casascius" is nothing more than a word I simply made up.

On the other hand, I deliberately left my name off the front side of the coin specifically so the coin design could be used by others to make their own coins.

I just used your name as an example. I'm considering funding a holographic sticker and putting my name on it.
I want people to look at it and say "Allten Made it, but he didn't put it to use".
Then I could create a publicly signed database where anyone could verify the true owner of a range of serial numbers on the holographic stickers.

How hard would serial numbers be to forge? I guess that could be the deal breaker for me.
Would there be any other solutions?

I can understand how this idea would cause problems with your name as you've already established yourself.

[casascius]

My guess:

A couple hundred bucks would get you a generic design which is overprinted with your own name and sequential numbering.  In other words, someone has already mass-produced the generic hologram and they are simply running it through a printing press to add a layer of ink on top.  The only words in the holography are "genuine" "original" etc.  Somebody is already selling this sort of thing on eBay right now, and is still far better than no customization.

A few thousand bucks would get you a custom design with your name and custom art in the holography itself.  You would probably be able to get serial numbering that was an actual burn-through of the holographic material, the same thing that puts a window in my holograms.

[allten]

My guess:

A couple hundred bucks would get you a generic design which is overprinted with your own name and sequential numbering.  In other words, someone has already mass-produced the generic hologram and they are simply running it through a printing press to add a layer of ink on top.  The only words in the holography are "genuine" "original" etc.  Somebody is already selling this sort of thing on eBay right now, and is still far better than no customization.

A few thousand bucks would get you a custom design with your name and custom art in the holography itself.  You would probably be able to get serial numbering that was an actual burn-through of the holographic material, the same thing that puts a window in my holograms.

What is the best way to get started? You have been through this rodeo already.
What holographic company did you use? I would like to ask them some more questions.

Thanks in advance

[casascius]

Polylabel - Ontario, Canada

[allten]

Polylabel - Ontario, Canada

Well, they weren't very helpful. Looks like the only option is order a large batch of custom stickers and make subsets of them unique
by my self.

You had mentioned that you had a laser engraver and had attempted to etch text or something to that effect on the stickers.
How successful could this be in making a small batch of stickers unique?

Could it be done with a more expensive high quality laser?

[casascius]

Polylabel - Ontario, Canada

Well, they weren't very helpful. Looks like the only option is order a large batch of custom stickers and make subsets of them unique
by my self.

You had mentioned that you had a laser engraver and had attempted to etch text or something to that effect on the stickers.
How successful could this be in making a small batch of stickers unique?

Could it be done with a more expensive high quality laser?

They are able to do "serial numbering" from a file.  This puts it in perspective.  Instead of saying "can you customize my labels", ask for serial numbering, and tell them you'll be submitting a file that contains (for example) Text A repeated 2000 times, Text B repeated 2000 times, etc...  This way, the expectations are clear: you aren't actually asking for any customization to the holographic shim itself.

I do have a laser engraver, and it can etch text.  Theirs is better for security.  When they "serial number" a label, the characters are a transparency in the holographic material, making it see-thru, something that can only be done during the manufacturing process.

When I laser-engrave a label, it makes tiny melts to the plastic, causing the holographic material to fuse with the plastic.  Wherever my laser hits, it turns the hologram material into something resembling highly reflective gold paint after it's dried.  It completely loses its holographic properties, while gaining a neat-looking brilliance all its own (but looks very different from their transparent serial numbering).

If you were looking to considering entry level equipment for lasering a label... just for reference sake, my laser is a 40 watt CO2 laser, though that's WAY more power than is necessary for this purpose, I turn the power way down if I use it for marking my labels.  Anything more than about 10-15% power will completely slice right through the label, even at the maximum speed (higher speed = shorter exposure per pixel).

[allten]

Polylabel - Ontario, Canada

Well, they weren't very helpful. Looks like the only option is order a large batch of custom stickers and make subsets of them unique
by my self.

You had mentioned that you had a laser engraver and had attempted to etch text or something to that effect on the stickers.
How successful could this be in making a small batch of stickers unique?

Could it be done with a more expensive high quality laser?

They are able to do "serial numbering" from a file.  This puts it in perspective.  Instead of saying "can you customize my labels", ask for serial numbering, and tell them you'll be submitting a file that contains (for example) Text A repeated 2000 times, Text B repeated 2000 times, etc...  This way, the expectations are clear: you aren't actually asking for any customization to the holographic shim itself.

I do have a laser engraver, and it can etch text.  Theirs is better for security.  When they "serial number" a label, the characters are a transparency in the holographic material, making it see-thru, something that can only be done during the manufacturing process.

When I laser-engrave a label, it makes tiny melts to the plastic, causing the holographic material to fuse with the plastic.  Wherever my laser hits, it turns the hologram material into something resembling highly reflective gold paint after it's dried.  It completely loses its holographic properties, while gaining a neat-looking brilliance all its own (but looks very different from their transparent serial numbering).

If you were looking to considering entry level equipment for lasering a label... just for reference sake, my laser is a 40 watt CO2 laser, though that's WAY more power than is necessary for this purpose, I turn the power way down if I use it for marking my labels.  Anything more than about 10-15% power will completely slice right through the label, even at the maximum speed (higher speed = shorter exposure per pixel).

Ok, I read back through all the posts in this thread and found this comment

"As it turns out, I actually do own a laser engraving machine.  But I am not lasering the holograms, the factory is.  I am pretty sure they laser the foil layer before it gets attached to the plastic layer of the sticker.  The foil presumably requires a much higher temperature to vaporize that the plastic would never withstand.  Where they mark at the factory, you see a complete absence of foil with no side effects to the plastic."

I sent another email to the manufacture to see if there was any other method to make better post engravings with laser equipment. probably not, but we'll see.

Would you be willing to post a picture of what it looks like when you do it with your laser equipment?
Even though it isn't as nice I may still be interested.
How does it look if you etch from the bottom of the sticker? Willing to give it a try?

Sorry, I can be stubbornly persistent. I would really like anyone and everyone to have access to this.

Thanks,
   Allten

[casascius]

Just do a google image search for "casascius" and look at the text on the 1000 BTC bar and the gold coin.

It actually looks really good. Just less secure because anyone could laser the surface, can't ablate the foil.

Lasering the back would be really cumbersome and difficult. And I expect the same results. Co2 infrared laser will not ablate metal foil without also melting the plastic.

[allten]

Just do a google image search for "casascius" and look at the text on the 1000 BTC bar and the gold coin.

It actually looks really good. Just less secure because anyone could laser the surface, can't ablate the foil.

Lasering the back would be really cumbersome and difficult. And I expect the same results. Co2 infrared laser will not ablate metal foil without also melting the plastic.

I Found pics with laser etching on the bar, but not on the holographic sticker itself. Maybe that is what you referring too.

Can both the plastic and metal foil be precisely cut? That way, when it is removed from the wax paper for application, the cut portion stays behind.

[casascius]

They can already cut circles.

The laser can cut the material easily but the edge becomes rough. Just have them cut it.

Quite honestly, I use my laser machine on the stickers themselves as little as possible because it is time consuming. Only for marking the gold coin and the 2 factor bars. Look at how I have these items priced as a result.

(Of course, I also use it for cutting out private key circles, which is WAY easier than hole punching when it is thousands at a time, and also allows an exact fit)