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Author Topic: Transcript of Chat Between Sunny King (Peercoin) & Daniel Larimer (Bitshares)  (Read 2738 times)
Sentinelrv
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May 09, 2014, 10:06:12 PM
 #1

In the link below you'll find a transcript for the chat that was held on 05/08/14 between Sunny King (Peercoin) and Daniel Larimer (Bitshares). It is their first meeting together.

http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2794.msg24993#msg24993
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May 09, 2014, 10:12:52 PM
 #2

Thanks for the conversation link. I'm not well up on PoS, but was Sunny King the man who invented it, or was it down to someone else?
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May 09, 2014, 11:49:38 PM
 #3

Thanks for the conversation link. I'm not well up on PoS, but was Sunny King the man who invented it, or was it down to someone else?

Proof-of-Stake was first proposed by QuantumMechanic here...

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=27787.msg349645#msg349645

But Sunny King was the first person to turn that idea into a reality with Peercoin. If you'd like to learn more about Sunny King's vision, please check out these 2 interviews...

Sunny King Interview #1: http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2216.0

Sunny King Interview #2: http://www.peercointalk.org/index.php?topic=2218.0

Here is also a great article that talks about Peercoin...

Cointrader Article: http://cointrader.org/peercoin-proof-of-stake-and-bitcoin/
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May 10, 2014, 02:47:47 AM
 #4

Very nice!  If these groups keep talking, I expect the result will be shiny things for everyone.  Tongue
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May 10, 2014, 03:59:11 AM
 #5

Nice!  Smiley

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May 10, 2014, 05:26:47 AM
 #6

In Sunny King's opinion, sidechain is possible. It is better to use opt-in but not to use peg to implement.

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May 10, 2014, 05:55:48 AM
 #7

I read through a lot of it, but didn't see any remarks about Bitshares seems to be going for an IPO and how Sunny King feels about that.

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May 10, 2014, 05:09:59 PM
 #8


The "IPO" is still going AFAIK.  It is called Angelshares and is done in the form of donations.  There is a social contract that users of the Bitshares Toolkit will honor by paying shares from their DACs to the donators.
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May 10, 2014, 09:41:39 PM
 #9

Very interesting stuff, thank you for the link.
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May 11, 2014, 12:31:02 AM
 #10

I read through a lot of it, but didn't see any remarks about Bitshares seems to be going for an IPO and how Sunny King feels about that.

After 6-12 months of intense, public discussion:

Sunny King: "I haven't read much about your work yet..."

bytemaster: "assuming it works".

Sunny knows it's (a) full of holes and (b) too complicated anyway.

There is a reason Financial Markets do not take this type of "prediction market" shortcut...
Because you can only do price discovery if both sides take on full risk...
It might work OK in a quiet market... but will break down under high volatility.
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May 11, 2014, 12:57:15 AM
 #11

I read through a lot of it, but didn't see any remarks about Bitshares seems to be going for an IPO and how Sunny King feels about that.

After 6-12 months of intense, public discussion:

Sunny King: "I haven't read much about your work yet..."

bytemaster: "assuming it works".

Sunny knows it's (a) full of holes and (b) too complicated anyway.

There is a reason Financial Markets do not take this type of "prediction market" shortcut...
Because you can only do price discovery if both sides take on full risk...
It might work OK in a quiet market... but will break down under high volatility.

Your assertions do not make logical sense. First of all, Sunny King clearly states that he hasn't looked into bitshares and dpos. Why are you trying to put words in his mouth?

Why do you claim to understand Financial Markets when you do not? This 'prediction market shortcut' is present in the financial markets. Its essentially a contract for difference. The only difference with this system, is that instead of being an otc derivative this contract for difference initiates the creation of a fungible derivative asset. How would high volatility every be bad. It simply means that the market is more liquid and accurate price discovery can happen more efficiently. Price discovery will happen for this asset as it happens for any asset that is freely exchanged. Price discovery is not hampered by asymmetric risk, the risk simply gets factored into the price of the asset in the same way that the cost of providing any good gets factored into the market price of that good.
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May 11, 2014, 02:52:48 AM
 #12

Why do you claim to understand Financial Markets when you do not? This 'prediction market shortcut' is present in the financial markets. Its essentially a contract for difference. The only difference with this system, is that instead of being an otc derivative this contract for difference initiates the creation of a fungible derivative asset.

So.....since 99% of financial traders have no idea how the Bitcoin protocol works, and most people who work on, or understand Bitcoin, either don't understand, or don't like anything about existing financial models, you have decided to combine the two and create a product that virtually nobody on the entire planet likes or understands...

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May 11, 2014, 05:36:01 AM
 #13

Just because you do not understand how it works does not mean that it is not a valuable technological advancement. Most people that use computers and the internet do not know how they work. Most people that use banks do not know how banks work. The point of bitcoin is to decentralize these service that were created in a centralized manner. It doesn't really matter if ppl understand how the centralized systems work vs the decentralized systems, in the end ppl will gravitate to the technology that brings about the greatest efficiency and value.


As to your suggestion that no one "likes " this product, you are terribly misinformed. Everyone even the traders on wallstreet are distrusting of our current banking system and are looking for an alternative. Clearly those in the bitcoin community are even more distrusting. If you have been paying attention to bitcoin over the past few years you would understand that a decentalized exchange is the holy grail of the crypto currency space. It is the sine quo non of the financial renaissance. Everyone wants this its just misinformed ppl like you that do not know it yet.
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May 11, 2014, 03:24:27 PM
 #14

Interesting! Hopefully the major developers in this space will be meeting up more often. Smiley
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May 11, 2014, 04:28:28 PM
 #15

These two are geniuses!
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May 11, 2014, 06:45:21 PM
 #16

Their conversation is well worth a read.
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May 12, 2014, 07:14:14 AM
 #17

Everyone wants this its just misinformed ppl like you that do not know it yet.

No, my statement was more in reference to most Bitcoin people being completely against existing financial models, it's overcomplicated systems from derivative markts, naked shorts, the tax codes, everything to do with it, and you're talking about trying to shove as much of that as possible into Bitcoin.

When the United States was created, many people wanted to ban lawyers from holding office because they work in their own, esoteric, artificial system, and it would give too much power and advantage over the common man.  The same thing is basically true with modern financial markets.  People want to make them as complicated as possible so only their little cult can utilize them and reign over people.

Most of everything going on in legal and financial arenas is fake, artificial, and should not exist.  The only reason it does exist, is men with guns from the government enforce it.  Non-tyrannical models of economics and legality follow Occam's Razor.

Interest is also basically a form of slavery when taken into proper context, but might be required to make Bitcoin work in the long run.  It's pretty sad you see no Bitcoin devs talking about ANY PHILOSOPHICAL principals behind their systems (as in the altcoin section).  The closest thing I've seen is Gavin posting a twitter about non-zero sum games.  I don't remember if the article was good or bad, but still.

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May 12, 2014, 07:29:13 AM
 #18

Everyone wants this its just misinformed ppl like you that do not know it yet.

No, my statement was more in reference to most Bitcoin people being completely against existing financial models, and you're talking about trying to shove as much of that as possible into Bitcoin.

Most bitcoin ppl don't know good financial models vs bad financial models, which is why they tout bitcoin as a crypto-currency when it is most appropriately categorized as crypto-equity. Anything can be a currency, but the most viable currencies have always been debt instruments because they bear the greatest price stability. Thus until we have crypto-debt we will not have viable crypto-currencies that rival existing currencies. A decentralized bank is how we create viable crypto-currencies. If you want to see widespread adoption of crypto-currencies then you are for this innovation, whether you know it or not.
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May 12, 2014, 07:42:25 AM
 #19

Everyone wants this its just misinformed ppl like you that do not know it yet.

When the United States was created, many people wanted to ban lawyers from holding office because they work in their own, esoteric, artificial system, and it would give too much power and advantage over the common man.  The same thing is basically true with modern financial markets.  People want to make them as complicated as possible so only their little cult can utilize them and reign over people.

Most of everything going on in legal and financial arenas is fake, artificial, and should not exist.  The only reason it does exist, is men with guns from the government enforce it.  Non-tyrannical models of economics and legality follow Occam's Razor.

I completely agree. Economics is much simpler than economic pundits make it out to be. The crony capitalists maintain their power through misinformation on the simplest of economic concepts - most notably money.

Interest is also basically a form of slavery when taken into proper context, but might be required to make Bitcoin work in the long run.  It's pretty sad you see no Bitcoin devs talking about ANY PHILOSOPHICAL principals behind their systems.  The closest thing I've seen is Gavin posting a twitter about non-zero sum games.  I don't remember if the article was good or bad, but still.

I think you mean to say that debt is a form of slavery in the proper context - a sentiment I once again agree with. Today we have a debt laden society. But debt nor interest are bad, it is simply a matter of their use. You could say nuclear energy is bad because you can create wmd, but by the same token, you can use it to power whole nations - look at france.  

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May 12, 2014, 01:07:51 PM
 #20

Economy should be a science. If it attains truth, then perceived complexity is irrelevant. The important thing is that it becomes more like astronomy and chemistry than like astrology and alchemy. I for one used to hate economy, but after reading the work of Daniel Larimer and others in this space I have come to appreciate some of the truths that it embeds and the importance it holds for the successful future of mankind.

The ancients may have distrusted and regarded alchemy as black magic, a force for evils like the hubris of eternal life, the greed of infinite gold and the death of crafted poisons; mysterious forces where used in secret by the few to exploit the many. However, as the science of substance progressed to become more like chemistry the rumors of black magic gradually disappeared. The few no longer had any secret knowledge, and everyone recognized that the intent and beliefs of humans had no influence over the truths of chemistry.

Thus the truths of chemistry came to radiate with their own peculiar cold, white light. When will Economy do the same? I believe we are on the brink.
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