Bitcoin Forum
December 11, 2016, 02:39:08 AM *
News: To be able to use the next phase of the beta forum software, please ensure that your email address is correct/functional.
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Capitalism hits the fan  (Read 4969 times)
JA37
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
April 18, 2011, 07:05:22 PM
 #1

If you haven't seen this, it might be interesting for people in this forum. If it's been posted before I apologize.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HTkEBIoxBA


Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
1481423948
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481423948

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481423948
Reply with quote  #2

1481423948
Report to moderator
1481423948
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481423948

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481423948
Reply with quote  #2

1481423948
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1481423948
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1481423948

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1481423948
Reply with quote  #2

1481423948
Report to moderator
NghtRppr
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 476


View Profile
April 18, 2011, 07:08:42 PM
 #2

If you haven't seen this, it might be interesting for people in this forum. If it's been posted before I apologize.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HTkEBIoxBA



Utter garbage.
JA37
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
April 18, 2011, 07:15:11 PM
 #3

Utter garbage.

You've seen it before, or did you base this analysis on the title? Care to elaborate the critique?

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
error
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574



View Profile
April 18, 2011, 07:32:34 PM
 #4

Utter garbage.

You've seen it before, or did you base this analysis on the title? Care to elaborate the critique?

It was only necessary to get to 0:01:45 before finding out that it's going to be total shit. You seriously want a critique of bull manure?

15UFyv6kfWgq83Pp3yhXPr8rknv9m6581W
JA37
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
April 18, 2011, 07:43:36 PM
 #5

It was only necessary to get to 0:01:45 before finding out that it's going to be total shit. You seriously want a critique of bull manure?

I would at least like to know why you think it's so bad. At 0:01:45 you have only seen the introduction and 'This is the biggest economic meltdown in my lifetime'. What's so bad about the intro that you dismiss everything else?

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
Sjalq
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile WWW
April 18, 2011, 09:18:31 PM
 #6

WW2 was not the cause for the recovery of the US economy. You do not put all your efforts into things that go up in smoke and then economically better your standing. You build things that others need and are willing to exchange for the things they built. If those things don't match you use an intermediary liquid item (money) that allows you to trade that which you do need for what others need from you. This is the only way to progress I've heard of.

I did not watch the whole video but he does not seem to go into why wages stagnated in the 70s. While I'm not American and have not done the full analysis, I don't think it is coincidental that full blown worldwide debt based fiat currency started in 1971 and that many, many economic phenomena become apparent from 1971 onward. If I had to venture a guess however it is that the stagnation in wages and the discrepancy in profits is due to taxation provisions that unduly reward "hiding" money in business assets and punishes paying people more. Under unhindered market conditions this would not be possible.

As far as I can tell he is some sort of Neo-Marxist. Marxism is an unethical, envy based belief system with equally flawed economics to explain itself. It ought not be revisited except as a cautionary tale.

Observation; he states a lot of facts but does not connect them to one another in a reliable cause and effect way. He makes flimsy connections like saying that profits are borrowed to workers at interest. The mere fact that one knows facts does not give one insight into the underlying logic, this is something that plagues the economics community.

Cheesy mine mine mine mine mine mine mine Cheesy
*Image Removed*
18WMxaHsxx6FuvbQbeA33UZud1bnmD7xY3
error
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574



View Profile
April 18, 2011, 09:58:07 PM
 #7

It was only necessary to get to 0:01:45 before finding out that it's going to be total shit. You seriously want a critique of bull manure?

I would at least like to know why you think it's so bad. At 0:01:45 you have only seen the introduction and 'This is the biggest economic meltdown in my lifetime'. What's so bad about the intro that you dismiss everything else?

Some people like wading through crap. I'm not one of them. Maybe if you offered a bounty... Grin

15UFyv6kfWgq83Pp3yhXPr8rknv9m6581W
JA37
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 378


View Profile
April 18, 2011, 10:56:49 PM
 #8

Some people like wading through crap. I'm not one of them. Maybe if you offered a bounty... Grin
I'm sorry. You have to pay for your own education.  Wink

Ponzi me: http://fxnet.bitlex.org/?ref=588
Thanks to the anonymous person who doubled my BTC wealth by sending 0.02 BTC to: 1BSGbFq4G8r3uckpdeQMhP55ScCJwbvNnG
Sjalq
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 280


View Profile WWW
April 18, 2011, 11:02:20 PM
 #9

Filtering through the noise in economic theory is quite a challenge.

Rules for evaluating economics:
1. If it's not factual and not systematically logical, it is nonsense.
2. If it looks logical its probably not ;-)

Cheesy mine mine mine mine mine mine mine Cheesy
*Image Removed*
18WMxaHsxx6FuvbQbeA33UZud1bnmD7xY3
error
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 574



View Profile
April 19, 2011, 01:09:13 AM
 #10

Some people like wading through crap. I'm not one of them. Maybe if you offered a bounty... Grin
I'm sorry. You have to pay for your own education.  Wink

I did. I'm certainly not paying to be miseducated, as I would have to be to finish watching this video.

15UFyv6kfWgq83Pp3yhXPr8rknv9m6581W
benjamindees
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288


View Profile
April 19, 2011, 06:20:20 AM
 #11

I really like this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj-Dq9dHeI4

Quote
WW2 was not the cause for the recovery of the US economy.

He never actually says this so I'm not sure what you're responding to here.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
The Script
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
April 21, 2011, 04:35:28 AM
 #12

I really like this interview:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rj-Dq9dHeI4

Quote
WW2 was not the cause for the recovery of the US economy.

He never actually says this so I'm not sure what you're responding to here.


"What finally lifted us out...was a major change in the society, called World War II."  4:02 - 4:18

This sounds like he credits World War II to me.  Does he elaborate on this later on?

JA37, thanks for posting.  I'll try to listen to more of it later and give you a critique.  So far I agree with some of what he's said: monetary and fiscal policies failed in the 30's and also in present day. 
benjamindees
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1288


View Profile
April 21, 2011, 07:24:47 AM
 #13

Well, he at least doesn't give the stock Keynesian response about creating jobs blowing up stuff etc.  He basically says that we recovered because we flattened Europe and we were the biggest industrial economy remaining.

Civil Liberty Through Complex Mathematics
The Script
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
April 21, 2011, 08:37:11 AM
 #14

Well, he at least doesn't give the stock Keynesian response about creating jobs blowing up stuff etc.  He basically says that we recovered because we flattened Europe and we were the biggest industrial economy remaining.

Blowing up someone's else's economy doesn't mean yours will do better.  In fact, losing trading partners is detrimental to your economy.  The United States recovered from the Great Depression when all the soldiers came home and started saving and producing.  Once Europe got back on its feet it probably helped us that we were ahead of them because we could sell them all our technological innovations.
Terpie
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 175



View Profile
April 21, 2011, 07:00:38 PM
 #15

Well, he at least doesn't give the stock Keynesian response about creating jobs blowing up stuff etc.  He basically says that we recovered because we flattened Europe and we were the biggest industrial economy remaining.

Blowing up someone's else's economy doesn't mean yours will do better.  In fact, losing trading partners is detrimental to your economy.  The United States recovered from the Great Depression when all the soldiers came home and started saving and producing.  Once Europe got back on its feet it probably helped us that we were ahead of them because we could sell them all our technological innovations.

There are definitely some transitionary short-term effects to being the only economy with a large productive capacity. However, you are correct, in the long run, everyone is worse off. It would be analogous if the port at Baltimore would be destroyed, you would expect the other nearby ports to see an increase in activity. The other port owners would be richer, but everyone else would end up worse off.
steelhouse
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 700


View Profile
April 22, 2011, 08:51:34 AM
 #16

Thanks for posting it is going to be a good watch.  But the reality is government and unions are destroying america.  The great depression as well as this current fiasco was caused by government.  I have the choice to go to McDonalds.  I don't have choice to support the school of this film.  The government decided to give student loans to go to this school so they can bitch and cry for more money.

End the Department of Education.

As soon as I saw the title I knew it was going to be b.s. I would like to see "Government, Unions, and Lobbiests are ruining America - your choice not governments choice".

Too tired will edit later.
­­­Atlas_
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 56


Negate what exists for a future that does not.


View Profile
April 22, 2011, 12:55:31 PM
 #17

I just wish to note there is nothing wrong with unions. Problems only show-up with unions on government-empowered steroids.
Gladiator
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 44


View Profile
April 24, 2011, 01:08:40 AM
 #18

WW2 was not the cause for the recovery of the US economy. You do not put all your efforts into things that go up in smoke and then economically better your standing. You build things that others need and are willing to exchange for the things they built. If those things don't match you use an intermediary liquid item (money) that allows you to trade that which you do need for what others need from you. This is the only way to progress I've heard of.
He explained it later. War means the production of weapons and other war-related stuff. It's a boost for economy. But after the war soldiers com back and look for job and you don't need to produce that much of war-related stuff anymore. So the government decided to send soldiers to colleges to delay impact of new workforce. One problem solved.
Europe is in ruins, almost every strong nation is in ruins. They need to rebuild it. American economy left unscratched so they start to produce essential goods for Europe and lend money to buy this american stuff. That's why american economy went up. At least that's what he says.
I remember that I learned something similar during history lessons in high-school.
Quote
I did not watch the whole video but he does not seem to go into why wages stagnated in the 70s. While I'm not American and have not done the full analysis, I don't think it is coincidental that full blown worldwide debt based fiat currency started in 1971 and that many, many economic phenomena become apparent from 1971 onward. If I had to venture a guess however it is that the stagnation in wages and the discrepancy in profits is due to taxation provisions that unduly reward "hiding" money in business assets and punishes paying people more. Under unhindered market conditions this would not be possible.
He answers this in last 5-7 minutes of the video. For 150 years before 70ies the US experienced slight work-force shortage. So the wages went up and immigrants were always welcomed.
During 70ies, he says, 4 things happened.
Computers, they made work more efficient and lowered required number of people to produce needed results.
Europe and other big economies recovered after WW2 and didn't need american goods anymore. They started to make their own cheaper and better stuff. So now America needed cheaper goods and workforce and so it outsourced a lot of thing. (Hence the rise of China)
Two reasons that lowered demand for workforce. And here are two reasons reasons the supply of workforce rose.
Women went to work. Millions of them.
Immigrants.

So previous lack of workforce became oversupply and employers didn't have to pay more money. Or so he says. Seems logical to me.
Quote
As far as I can tell he is some sort of Neo-Marxist. Marxism is an unethical, envy based belief system with equally flawed economics to explain itself. It ought not be revisited except as a cautionary tale.
I don't like such ideas very much either. Those ideas that are somewhat good sound somewhat unrealistic. And things tend to go horribly wrong in the end. I know this because I live in post-communistic country(Ukraine) and those 70 years left bad lasting impression. I can experience democracy/capitalism built on remains of communism myself and it looks ugly. But still some ideas are good and parts of those ideas can be implemented in real life.
Every idea is somewhat unethical and envy-based from a perspective of an older and currently implemented one. Feudalism->democracy/capitalism.
Quote
Observation; he states a lot of facts but does not connect them to one another in a reliable cause and effect way. He makes flimsy connections like saying that profits are borrowed to workers at interest. The mere fact that one knows facts does not give one insight into the underlying logic, this is something that plagues the economics community.
He does connect them. The whole point of his vision is that current crisis was set in motion long time ago and is a result of flaws of capitalism and bad decisions.
US after the WW2 was prosperous. -> During 70ies things changed. Lack of workforce disappeared and so did wage growth. Effectiveness of the work rose. People started to borrow money against their houses to support their spending habits. Companies put their growing profits(stable wages, rising productiveness) into the banks. Banks started to lend those money to people. People spent more money. -> Debt grows. -> Economy was hit by the dot-com bubble. To help the economy banks were asked to lower the interest on loans. People go on a spending spree. People bought houses. -> Shit hit the fan. For the second time bubble poped. No bubbles left.
So now government pours money into the economy so things doesn't go very bad right now.
And the US owes a lot of money to other countries...
One more push and...
Things he says do make sense.

1KHbs7SAfGrVnjAwabbaFtTDvrTZZMCeRK
The Script
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
April 24, 2011, 01:54:59 AM
 #19

WW2 was not the cause for the recovery of the US economy. You do not put all your efforts into things that go up in smoke and then economically better your standing. You build things that others need and are willing to exchange for the things they built. If those things don't match you use an intermediary liquid item (money) that allows you to trade that which you do need for what others need from you. This is the only way to progress I've heard of.
He explained it later. War means the production of weapons and other war-related stuff. It's a boost for economy. But after the war soldiers com back and look for job and you don't need to produce that much of war-related stuff anymore. So the government decided to send soldiers to colleges to delay impact of new workforce. One problem solved.
Europe is in ruins, almost every strong nation is in ruins. They need to rebuild it. American economy left unscratched so they start to produce essential goods for Europe and lend money to buy this american stuff. That's why american economy went up. At least that's what he says.
I remember that I learned something similar during history lessons in high-school.
Quote

When you build a refrigerator you expend time, money and resources and then someone ends up with an item they can use to store their food and prevent if from spoiling as quickly as it would otherwise.  When you build bombs, you drop them on someone else's refrigerator and you both end up with nothing.  This is why war does not help an economy. 

However, the US economy probably did benefit from being the largest and most advanced, once Europe got back on its feet. 
FooDSt4mP
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 182


View Profile
April 24, 2011, 02:01:21 AM
 #20

WW2 was not the cause for the recovery of the US economy. You do not put all your efforts into things that go up in smoke and then economically better your standing. You build things that others need and are willing to exchange for the things they built. If those things don't match you use an intermediary liquid item (money) that allows you to trade that which you do need for what others need from you. This is the only way to progress I've heard of.
He explained it later. War means the production of weapons and other war-related stuff. It's a boost for economy. But after the war soldiers com back and look for job and you don't need to produce that much of war-related stuff anymore. So the government decided to send soldiers to colleges to delay impact of new workforce. One problem solved.
Europe is in ruins, almost every strong nation is in ruins. They need to rebuild it. American economy left unscratched so they start to produce essential goods for Europe and lend money to buy this american stuff. That's why american economy went up. At least that's what he says.
I remember that I learned something similar during history lessons in high-school.
Quote

When you build a refrigerator you expend time, money and resources and then someone ends up with an item they can use to store their food and prevent if from spoiling as quickly as it would otherwise.  When you build bombs, you drop them on someone else's refrigerator and you both end up with nothing.  This is why war does not help an economy. 

However, the US economy probably did benefit from being the largest and most advanced, once Europe got back on its feet. 

He needs a new refrigerator, and since you blew up the factory, he has to buy it from you.

As we slide down the banister of life, this is just another splinter in our ass.
Pages: [1] 2 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!