Why i prefer POW over POS

[balu2]

i have to thank you for the constructive responses. Was good to get a few different perspectives on things. I think i have learned some things here.

[newuser01]

I totally agree with this, the only problem the current PoW design is that as soon as it is profitable enough GPU's are no longer valid and ASICS take over. While that is good to secure the network, the mining gets more centralized and that is no good.

There is however one solution to this, multi-algo PoW - such as Myriadcoin.

It makes the ASIC securing of the network possible (for 1-3 algorithms) while small-time miners such as myself can mine using the other algos and secure the network that way (and get mah coins)

I just wish more people would see this as the breakthrough it is instead of claiming that PoS is the solution.. because it is definitely not..

[MasterMined710]

I'm cool with BTC POW as it earned its place, but other POW clones are pretty much trying to do the same thing, we'd be ended up with many different flavors of ASIC. One unavoidable nature of POW is it leads to mining centralization pool, whereas in POS, users have to put their coins as the stake thereby having to mine on their own.

In POS, the more spread of coins, the better. IPO POS coins such as next, or coins that transform to 100% POS too soon such as dark, is bad, as it screams the sense of unfairness and centralization.

darkcoin is not pos. i think you maybe thinking of xc which is a x-11 pow/pos hybrid that had something like a 3 week 5 million coin instamine.

[tromp]

Nowadays, to be successfull in PoW mining you have to be priviliged in several ways:
- have access to 'free' (usually means stolen) energy
- live in a country with low-taxed offshore deliveries or got ASIC manufacturer in your neighbourhood
- win in 'pre-order' gambling game

That may be true for compute-bound PoWs but not for memory-bound PoWs
that need random access to more memory than can be fit on an ASIC.

Thus an ASIC for such a PoW needs to be equipped with (more expensive) memory modules,
and only needs to be optimized to saturate the memory latency, which also limits power-use.

Such an ASIC would also not have much of a performance advantage over a multi-core cpu
running the PoW, since both are limited by memory latency.

[minerman121]

The OP here is right. Sorry to resurrect this thread but I have been grappling with this for quite some time. what brought me to post, and what angered me the most, was PIVX and the multitude of early adopters who, got in early, took a price rise, and now enjoying staking benefits. Let me tell you why I am annoyed. I will say that I am an investor of sorts; I have a nice array of GPUs that mine for me daily and enjoy excellent rewards, even with the high cost of electricity in my locality.

1. Early adopters are the only winners in POS coins.

- With PIVX, the early adopters took enough coins to stake and to hit up the master nodes. So they now enjoy excellent rewards at an entry point that reduced their risk. If you open the PIVX staking calculator now, you will notice a VERY startling fact, both for investors and the future security of the coin. This was before halving; A stake equivalent of $150,000USD would earn approximately $1400USD per month in equivalent PIVX. There is no investor alive stupid enough to dump that sort of scratch into such a high risk project and earn such crappy interest.

2. If the entry gate is too hard to squeeze through and there is no incentive to stake because of the fact listed above, who will secure the network in the future when early adopters profit take?

- I have no idea who will. There is no investor alive that would agree to such a proposition. You might earn less in capital appreciation of a piece of land or property, but the backing is tied in the land and the bricks. Not a new digital currency.

3. Your coins are hostage for residual income and/or ROI.

- Says it all. Artificial price boosting by forcing coins to remain on the network, does not good investment make.The big bad wolf of downward mining pressure is always seen as a bad thing, but it is an honest account of liquidity.

4. Scream all you want, there is NOTHING AT STAKE.

- Called a fruitless argument, though there is still merit to it. In almost all capital mediums on Earth in our modern economy, there is value added to the ledger itself through other means. I build you a table, I put work into building it. The Table has inherent value. I mine a coin at a certain cost, the coin has inherent value as it was an equal exchange of real world resources. Essentially your investment into PIVX was no more than investing in a Zero Value line in a database.

Bleeding hearts, bleeding hearts; electricity is a worry? When the coin reaches a huge marketcap the electricity use becomes the most efficient and the hashing power becomes the most secure than any other system in existence today.

Bit of a flame; may cry babies get upset because they are unable to earn mining equivalent rewards because they do not want to fork out the EFFORT and MONEY to buy equipment. Instead they want rewards at no effort, which is only really achieved in hitting up and gambling on an ICO. After prices rise, the rewards become crap for new investors. Wake up to yourselves.

[freeElectron]

-POW gives everybody the opportunity to get in on a coin through mining. POS on the other hand favours early adopters. People who come late to the show have a serious disadvantage.

POW gives the value to the electric companies.
With the current setup, like BTC or LTC, some 95+% of the coin reward goes to electric companies and hardware companies.

So it favors some companies and the rest get their pockets emptied.

[aioc]

When I'm just starting out I thought I could mine some coins using my machine but I found out you need a specialized hardware to mine these coins,then I found these pos coins,easy to acquire instead of buying these specialized hardware and paying a big electricity cost I opted for pos coins everybody can acquire it compare to pow coins where you have to buy hardwares ..

[freeElectron]

POS on the other hand favours early adopters. People who come late to the show have a serious disadvantage.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you must be kidding.

A man payed 10000 BTC for a pizza once.

POW favored early adopters too... Even more extremely. Nothing can even compare.

[dissident]

pure whining to me... most NEM stakeholders dumped their stakes for peanuts and anyone with foresight could have bought them.   If a stake gets too expensive or a coin debuts with too high a price, just don't invest in it. Simple.

[buenav]

Nowadays, to be successfull in PoW mining you have to be priviliged in several ways:

- have access to 'free' (usually means stolen) energy
- live in a country with low-taxed offshore deliveries or got ASIC manufacturer in your neighbourhood
- win in 'pre-order' gambling game

To get in PoS minting you just have to purchase BTC. Of course you have to deal with market swings, but nobody says that crypto-business is risk-free.
Early adopters of PoS cryptos had their chance to dump their coins when price went up for the first period of time, or patiently wait and risk. It's the same as dealing with any other algo new released currencies.

So IMO this is the point:

The only reason why someone prefers POW is that he bought expensive mining hardware and his ROI is dropping to nowhere.

Yeah suggesting everyone can get in on mining is crazy, just look at bitcoin mining anyone without those preconditions you just mentioned will lose money instead of earning money. It's definitely still the privileged few that can take part in PoW, the only difference being that the privileged few are a different group under PoW than under PoS.

For me the deal breaker is the fact that PoW will waste huge resources if the marketcap of bitcoin or any other PoW coin gets in the hundreds of billions, to the point where the majority of worldwide energy consumption would soon go towards mining.


edit: only just noticed it's an old resurrected thread, though the discussion of PoW vs PoS gets more relevant by the day due to the electricity usage done on PoW

[minerman121]

POS on the other hand favours early adopters. People who come late to the show have a serious disadvantage.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you must be kidding.

A man payed 10000 BTC for a pizza once.

POW favoured early adopters too... Even more extremely. Nothing can even compare.

Yes, ok. And throughout the course of said coin activity, it still provided adequate rewards to secure the network and invest in it.

Yes, a man payed 10000BTC for a pizza once, fine, fair enough. However throughout the existence of the coin, it could still be mined. And at the very least, it did not require 150K to make less than 1% monthly return. The reward stayed consistent with the network difficulty.

This argument is not because early adopters made more than late ones, this argument is about providing adequate incentive for investing in a network and securing them voluntarily. Why would any idiot in their right mind decide $1400 monthly return was worth the staking of $150K. Where is the incentive and the balance in the Risk/reward there in PIVX? It's an absolute joke.

And to the people saying they needed "specialised hardware" are just ignorant to the entire game. GPUs are not specialised hardware, and I have made a lot more in PoW than I can possibly in investing in staking in a coin that already took a price jump. NEM, PIVX, CROWN; it's all the same shit. The reward is crap, the network needs the stakers, so only early adopters see a proper return as per their stake and risk. You can't lie about the figures. $150K can earn you a lot more with other investment vehicles. I think the PIVX devs are dreaming.

[freeElectron]

POS on the other hand favours early adopters. People who come late to the show have a serious disadvantage.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you must be kidding.

A man payed 10000 BTC for a pizza once.

POW favoured early adopters too... Even more extremely. Nothing can even compare.

Yes, ok. And throughout the course of said coin activity, it still provided adequate rewards to secure the network and invest in it.

Yes, a man payed 10000BTC for a pizza once, fine, fair enough. However throughout the existence of the coin, it could still be mined. And at the very least, it did not require 150K to make less than 1% monthly return. The reward stayed consistent with the network difficulty.

This argument is not because early adopters made more than late ones, this argument is about providing adequate incentive for investing in a network and securing them voluntarily. Why would any idiot in their right mind decide $1400 monthly return was worth the staking of $150K. Where is the incentive and the balance in the Risk/reward there in PIVX? It's an absolute joke.

And to the people saying they needed "specialised hardware" are just ignorant to the entire game. GPUs are not specialised hardware, and I have made a lot more in PoW than I can possibly in investing in staking in a coin that already took a price jump. NEM, PIVX, CROWN; it's all the same shit. The reward is crap, the network needs the stakers, so only early adopters see a proper return as per their stake and risk. You can't lie about the figures. $150K can earn you a lot more with other investment vehicles. I think the PIVX devs are dreaming.

If you are not making money staking, then it is working.
This is supposed to be a payment system for the people. Not a vacuum cleaner to eat wealth from other people.

GPU bla bla bla..  As soon there is a PoW coin that gets valuable, there will be a hunt to make a chip.

[minerman121]

Years of Monero, Groestl, Skein... Where's the chips?

[minerman121]

Nowadays, to be successfull in PoW mining you have to be priviliged in several ways:

- have access to 'free' (usually means stolen) energy
- live in a country with low-taxed offshore deliveries or got ASIC manufacturer in your neighbourhood
- win in 'pre-order' gambling game

To get in PoS minting you just have to purchase BTC. Of course you have to deal with market swings, but nobody says that crypto-business is risk-free.
Early adopters of PoS cryptos had their chance to dump their coins when price went up for the first period of time, or patiently wait and risk. It's the same as dealing with any other algo new released currencies.

So IMO this is the point:

The only reason why someone prefers POW is that he bought expensive mining hardware and his ROI is dropping to nowhere.

Yeah suggesting everyone can get in on mining is crazy, just look at bitcoin mining anyone without those preconditions you just mentioned will lose money instead of earning money. It's definitely still the privileged few that can take part in PoW, the only difference being that the privileged few are a different group under PoW than under PoS.

For me the deal breaker is the fact that PoW will waste huge resources if the marketcap of bitcoin or any other PoW coin gets in the hundreds of billions, to the point where the majority of worldwide energy consumption would soon go towards mining.


edit: only just noticed it's an old resurrected thread, though the discussion of PoW vs PoS gets more relevant by the day due to the electricity usage done on PoW

This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. So you are comparing bitcoins ASIC driven network to Altcoins with memory intensive algorithms? Oh please. I prefer PoW because I know that the distribution method and security works. I know that I can work with that coin to generate a profit based on my efforts and investment. And the resources are the deal breaker? Oh please, you are sure it isn;t because you realized you could stake a coin and make money as an early adopter without any effort? Come on now...

Privileged few - what utter garbage. The cries of someone who wants something from nothing, which is exactly what PoS is. Can you explain why I turn a profit enough to sustain myself with GPUs and 0.28kWH electricity prices?

Edit: decentralization; you need individuals to work it. If there is no reward, why bother with the risk? Ideology alone won't fuel the network. Wake up to yourself.

Also to the guy who mentioned Ripple; poor example. Ripple is a bridge currency aimed at the baking sector. It provides liquidity to low liquidity pairs, with a faster and more efficient transfer system. Show me one PoS currency, that isn't a god damn Token, that is working. It has to start out as a PoS currency, and not derive itself off the backs of PoW miners giving the ledger intrinsic value ie. ETH.

[freeElectron]

Nowadays, to be successfull in PoW mining you have to be priviliged in several ways:

- have access to 'free' (usually means stolen) energy
- live in a country with low-taxed offshore deliveries or got ASIC manufacturer in your neighbourhood
- win in 'pre-order' gambling game

To get in PoS minting you just have to purchase BTC. Of course you have to deal with market swings, but nobody says that crypto-business is risk-free.
Early adopters of PoS cryptos had their chance to dump their coins when price went up for the first period of time, or patiently wait and risk. It's the same as dealing with any other algo new released currencies.

So IMO this is the point:

The only reason why someone prefers POW is that he bought expensive mining hardware and his ROI is dropping to nowhere.

Yeah suggesting everyone can get in on mining is crazy, just look at bitcoin mining anyone without those preconditions you just mentioned will lose money instead of earning money. It's definitely still the privileged few that can take part in PoW, the only difference being that the privileged few are a different group under PoW than under PoS.

For me the deal breaker is the fact that PoW will waste huge resources if the marketcap of bitcoin or any other PoW coin gets in the hundreds of billions, to the point where the majority of worldwide energy consumption would soon go towards mining.


edit: only just noticed it's an old resurrected thread, though the discussion of PoW vs PoS gets more relevant by the day due to the electricity usage done on PoW

Privileged few - what utter garbage. The cries of someone who wants something from nothing, which is exactly what PoS is. Can you explain why I turn a profit enough to sustain myself with GPUs and 0.28kWH electricity prices?

So just be because it is working for you at the moment, with your electric prices, we know it will be the same in 2 years?

[Ayers]

i agree with all you said, and in fact there is a reason why all the pos shit coin die quickly or eventually die withoutbuy supporter, because there is no reason to buy when you have coins for free, instead with pow buyers are incentivate to buy because maybe they can't invest in mining, and they have no other way to acquire the coins, POW is always the way to go for me, and every coin that have no pow is a died coin

[freeElectron]

Years of Monero, Groestl, Skein... Where's the chips?

So now is forever?

You do realize it is just a challenge?

[freeElectron]

Years of Monero, Groestl, Skein... Where's the chips?

Fortunately its just shitcoins and won't become anything. So no, we don't see chips.

[minerman121]

Years of Monero, Groestl, Skein... Where's the chips?

Fortunately its just shitcoins and won't become anything. So no, we don't see chips.

Oh yeah, Monero is a shitcoin but PIVX isn't... LOL

Groestl and Skein are algorithms, I said Monero but means to say Cryptonite. Do you know why no ASICs actually exist for it? Because they will be more expensive! It's a memory intensive algorithm. Strawman arguments.

[freeElectron]

Years of Monero, Groestl, Skein... Where's the chips?

Fortunately its just shitcoins and won't become anything. So no, we don't see chips.

Oh yeah, Monero is a shitcoin but PIVX isn't... LOL

Groestl and Skein are algorithms, I said Monero but means to say Cryptonite. Do you know why no ASICs actually exist for it? Because they will be more expensive! It's a memory intensive algorithm. Strawman arguments.

Strawman is to praise a coin because there are no chips today. Something that can change any moment.
I know Groestl and Skein are algorithms, but it's for mining shitcoins.

So I should dust of some PoW shitcoin and use it as an example of bad Pow too?
I never praised PIVX. This is a general discussion of PoW vs PoS.