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Author Topic: Bitcoin is a way for indebted nations to survive!  (Read 2031 times)
interlagos
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January 23, 2012, 08:16:02 PM
 #1

If nations like Greece, Spain, Italy start mining bitcoins quietly and then at some point make it public rising both the interest in this technology and the exchange rate, then as all the fiat currencies devalue so will their debt!
At some point they should be able to sell some fraction of their bitcoins and repay all their debt in EUR, USD or any other fiat.

Just noticed this post here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=40264.msg697324#msg697324
which says that largest share of "unknown" blocks comes from an IP address in Spain.
So maybe this is already happening... Smiley
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Costia
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January 24, 2012, 06:50:56 AM
 #2

wrong scale

worth of all bitcoins in existane = 6*8M=48 million
Greece debt:
Public debt   €329.351 billion (144.9% of GDP; 2010 est.)[12]
Budget deficit   €24.125 billion (10.6% of GDP; 2010 est.)[12]

the exchange rate will have to go up by ~x10,000
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January 24, 2012, 07:40:37 AM
 #3

the exchange rate will have to go up by ~x10,000

 Grin

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
notme
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January 24, 2012, 08:46:30 AM
 #4

wrong scale

worth of all bitcoins in existane = 6*8M=48 million
Greece debt:
Public debt   €329.351 billion (144.9% of GDP; 2010 est.)[12]
Budget deficit   €24.125 billion (10.6% of GDP; 2010 est.)[12]

the exchange rate will have to go up by ~x10,000

Not a problem.  Also, you're math is off... these are circles of debt, so as one pays done their debt, the creditor uses that to pay another debt, and so on.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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Costia
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January 24, 2012, 08:51:19 AM
 #5

I dont think circles of debt will account for a x1K difference

And why isnt it a problem? they will have to replace the euro with BTC or something like that to make the exchange rate jump like that.
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January 24, 2012, 08:55:05 AM
 #6

I dont think circles of debt will account for a x1K difference

And why isnt it a problem? they will have to replace the euro with BTC or something like that to make the exchange rate jump like that.

I believe that's the exact hypothetical that was proposed by the OP.

Also, it doesn't have to all be a chain of debt.... you pay the creditor who spends it and that guy pays down some debt.  You have to also consider the velocity of the money.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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Costia
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January 24, 2012, 09:02:50 AM
 #7

Quote
I believe that's the exact hypothetical that was proposed by the OP.
This would require the cooperation of all the European countries, otherwise Greece can print whatever new currency they like and give it to the other country as payment.
And they wont support it if  they will see that Greece got a huge piece of the cake in advance

Quote
Also, it doesn't have to all be a chain of debt.... you pay the creditor who spends it and that guy pays down some debt.  You have to also consider the velocity of the money.
I don't see how the velocity affects it. it will just affect how fast the debts are resolved. the total amount of money actually owed to others is pre-determined. if you knew what the circles are - you could know exactly how big the debt is - even without knowing the velocity
cbeast
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January 24, 2012, 10:50:24 AM
 #8

While I agree with the OP, he forgets one thing. Not only will debts based on worthless fiat money be paid off, but no central bank will ever again be able to enslave countries by printing money. Banks (yes there will still be a need for banks of a sort) will have to earn their money by wisely investing in profitable ventures, not printing huge amounts and bribing or warring.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 24, 2012, 08:01:46 PM
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Quote
I believe that's the exact hypothetical that was proposed by the OP.
This would require the cooperation of all the European countries, otherwise Greece can print whatever new currency they like and give it to the other country as payment.
And they wont support it if  they will see that Greece got a huge piece of the cake in advance

Quote
Also, it doesn't have to all be a chain of debt.... you pay the creditor who spends it and that guy pays down some debt.  You have to also consider the velocity of the money.
I don't see how the velocity affects it. it will just affect how fast the debts are resolved. the total amount of money actually owed to others is pre-determined. if you knew what the circles are - you could know exactly how big the debt is - even without knowing the velocity

Yes, it would be politically impossible... that's why it's called a hypothetical.

If you can't see the effect of the velocity of money I'm not sure I can help you.  If BTC are transferred twice as often, they can support an economy of the same size (measured in $) with half the $/BTC price.

https://www.bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
While no idea is perfect, some ideas are useful.
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Costia
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January 25, 2012, 03:20:04 AM
 #10

i get that, but what does it have to do with a pre-accumulated debt?
3phase
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January 25, 2012, 05:51:29 AM
 #11

While I agree with the OP, he forgets one thing. Not only will debts based on worthless fiat money be paid off, but no central bank will ever again be able to enslave countries by printing money. Banks (yes there will still be a need for banks of a sort) will have to earn their money by wisely investing in profitable ventures, not printing huge amounts and bribing or warring.

You probably mean that debts will NOT be paid off. Who would want to pay them off anyway?  Wink

And about enslaving, I wouldn't bet that it won't happen again in the future, maybe not in 10 years time, but in 20-30 years. Politicians who promise more (which they can't deliver without getting into debt) will always be elected over their opponents, unless there is a major shift in human perception and character worldwide, which I do not see to be happening.

Fiat no more.
Δοκιμάστε το http://multibit.org - Bitcoin client τώρα και στα Ελληνικά
brunoshady
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January 27, 2012, 08:00:08 PM
 #12

I don't think it is such a good idea at the moment
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January 28, 2012, 10:51:50 AM
 #13

IMO, BTC's bright future is in pension fund: The price will increase overtime and have high liquidity, one can save in BTC and when he/she retired, he will have a fortune to spend

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January 28, 2012, 02:04:31 PM
 #14

IMO, BTC's bright future is in pension fund: The price will increase overtime and have high liquidity, one can save in BTC and when he/she retired, he will have a fortune to spend
It's more like a lotto ticket, but with a much better chance of winning. That's why I like that one line from "The Good Wife" about going online and buying one Bitcoin.

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 29, 2012, 06:12:46 PM
 #15

Current governments would die using Bitcoin. They would literally destroy themselves.

Even if they start after price is stable, no deflation, the current methods would only bring disaster. They would produce debt again, and at some point start walking the edge as before. Then, something bad happens. An accident, an earthquake, a depression, a war. And they can't pay, and can't inflate, and lose control rapidly.

There is no headroom in the way governments handle money. When something goes wrong, they use inflation, bending rules and damaging the economy to get by. If they lose control of that, they will not be able to pay those millions of people they employ, and things break down. I'm not saying this would be a bad thing. But they probably like things a lot better the way they are now, and I don't get to decide.
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January 29, 2012, 06:35:43 PM
 #16

Current governments would die using Bitcoin. They would literally destroy themselves.

Even if they start after price is stable, no deflation, the current methods would only bring disaster. They would produce debt again, and at some point start walking the edge as before. Then, something bad happens. An accident, an earthquake, a depression, a war. And they can't pay, and can't inflate, and lose control rapidly.

There is no headroom in the way governments handle money. When something goes wrong, they use inflation, bending rules and damaging the economy to get by. If they lose control of that, they will not be able to pay those millions of people they employ, and things break down. I'm not saying this would be a bad thing. But they probably like things a lot better the way they are now, and I don't get to decide.
If debt financing government is so great then bitcoin will fail miserably. Why worry?

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 29, 2012, 06:57:57 PM
 #17

If I were a failed western gov't, I would play some taxpayer's money to manipulate the sh*t out of the bitcoin market, reaping phat profits up and down. Being not contabilized anywhere (ideally under some classified "national security" chapter of the budget), the stash could be then just distributed among the crooks involved in the black op.
But they are probably busy scheming much bigger and more evil plots with banksterz pulling more funny money/public debt out of their asses.

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