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Author Topic: Faraday Cage / Cold Storage  (Read 7075 times)
deepceleron
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January 25, 2012, 03:05:15 PM
 #41

I don't think you guys fully comprehend what a solar storm can do:

It was frying UNPLUGGED simple telegraph systems in 1859, what do you think it would do to a modern computer, ipad or iphone?   It would fuse their circuits.

Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases even shocking telegraph operators.[6] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[7] Some telegraph systems appeared to continue to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859

The advice given about just putting a surge protector would be fine for the storm that hit yesterday and today...  maybe an X1 flair (the next one up)  but anything bigger than that and your in for an ugly surprise if that is all you did.   I love what it does to paper if it's near a machine... like freaking kindling.

This is what a typical early telegraph circuit looks like:


and at the end of hundreds of miles of very large gauge copper wire you had a sounder that looks like this (this is 1900, 40 years newer than the event):



At one end of the long wire there is a six volt battery, and a switch that connects it to the line. At the other is a sensitive electromagnet coil that makes a sound. They are both connected to earth ground. When nobody is pressing the key on the other end, the circuit works more like "antenna for picking up currents from magnetic fields, and channelling them through very fine wire in a small coil, until it burns". If there is a large induced current in the wire or a large ground potential difference, you don't need the battery - the current already wants to flow through the wire.


Now our long power lines carry 400KV instead of a few volts, and they have equipment at the end that looks more like this:

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January 25, 2012, 03:15:01 PM
 #42

I don't think you guys fully comprehend what a solar storm can do:

It was frying UNPLUGGED simple telegraph systems in 1859, what do you think it would do to a modern computer, ipad or iphone?   It would fuse their circuits.

Telegraph systems all over Europe and North America failed, in some cases even shocking telegraph operators.[6] Telegraph pylons threw sparks and telegraph paper spontaneously caught fire.[7] Some telegraph systems appeared to continue to send and receive messages despite having been disconnected from their power supplies.[8]


Some of the failed telegraph systems were disconnected from their power supplies, not from the telegraph lines. If you hooked up a today's computer to the telegraph lines of 1859, it would eventually get fried. If you hooked up a computer to today's power and telephone lines, it would almost never get fried just because of solar flares. Lightning strikes - maybe; solar flares - almost never. If you are worried about solar flares frying your computers like the 1859 telegraphs, you might as well start worrying about meteorites crashing into your home (happens all the time, right?). Keep in mind - every effort we spend on addressing these kinds of concerns is the effort not spent on something else. With that in mind, I'm out of here.


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Your mining rig is on fire, yet you're very calm.
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January 25, 2012, 03:22:56 PM
 #43

Keep in mind - every effort we spend on addressing these kinds of concerns is the effort not spent on something else.

It is sad that NASA had to make a 2012 end of the world page explaining why dummies are.

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January 25, 2012, 03:42:15 PM
 #44

LOL no one is stating end of the world...  in fact the majority of my concern is localized....  but here's some examples,  some far more recent than the Carrington Event that burned unplugged telegraphs to the ground.

On March 13, 1989 a severe geomagnetic storm caused the collapse of the Hydro-Québec power grid in a matter of seconds as equipment protection relays tripped in a cascading sequence of events.[2][11] Six million people were left without power for nine hours, with significant economic loss. The storm even caused aurorae as far south as Texas.[3] The geomagnetic storm causing this event was itself the result of a coronal mass ejection, ejected from the Sun on March 9, 1989.[12] The minimum of Dst was -589 nT.

In 2003 The Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS) operated by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) was offline for approximately 30 hours due to the storm.[17] The Japanese ADEOS-2 satellite was severely damaged and the operation of many other satellites were interrupted due to the storm.[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_storm

I am by no means saying a power grid shutdown in Canada cutting power to six million people is the end of the world,  but it IS a problem...  I just believe that our systems should be more shielded,  in focus there should be some protection of bitcoins because the VAST majority of them are digital and digital only (though I do like some of the stuff that casascius is building,  it still represents only a tiny fraction of the ~ 8 million bitcoins in existence).

if a solar storm did wipe some machines and backups at Mt. Gox for example ,  it could potentially cause a loss of a large number of bitcoins and affect day to day growth of bitcoins in general.

Is it the end of the world,  not even close... most likely it would be a growth opportunity as those affected areas would need to purchase new machines, hardware, etc...  but in the short and mid range it would be problematic.









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January 25, 2012, 04:02:51 PM
 #45

It doesn't take voodoo from the sky to knock out power to hundreds of thousands in a technology-dense area with newer infrastructure: http://www.king5.com/news/local/Puget-Sound-Energy-may-give-50-credit-for-outage-137957953.html
My guess is that the death toll doesn't include many bitcoins.

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January 25, 2012, 05:05:59 PM
 #46

that was terrible weather that did that...  what I am saying is that for minimal cost...  we should rule out the once in a century or two type solar storm...    

Do I think it's going to happen in the next few months?  Most likely not...

Do I think that the additional 20 bucks (2/3 BTC) for people to make a simple faraday cage and throw a USB with a wallet.dat and maybe some copies of needed digital files.... if we know a storm is coming?   Yes I do...

honestly that's the extent of what I believe....

from my standpoint,  I paid some additional money to have a faraday cage for one of our backup safes...  I figured the low cost to build it outweighed the cost of having to deal with it if something bad did happen...





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January 25, 2012, 05:22:45 PM
 #47

that was terrible weather that did that...  what I am saying is that for minimal cost...  we should rule out the once in a century or two type solar storm...   

Do I think it's going to happen in the next few months?  Most likely not...

Do I think that the additional 20 bucks (2/3 BTC) for people to make a simple faraday cage and throw a USB with a wallet.dat and maybe some copies of needed digital files.... if we know a storm is coming?   Yes I do...

honestly that's the extent of what I believe....

from my standpoint,  I paid some additional money to have a faraday cage for one of our backup safes...  I figured the low cost to build it outweighed the cost of having to deal with it if something bad did happen...





Faraday cages need to be grounded.

It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.

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January 25, 2012, 06:23:11 PM
 #48

Yes they do Smiley

a typical grounding wire suffices as long as it's attached to something robustly grounded.




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deepceleron
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January 25, 2012, 07:06:53 PM
 #49

They sure don't.  Jesus. I'm done here.



"we store all the bitcoins sent to cold storage in a vault that is a faraday cage shielded to protect against something like this." Run, bitcoins, run!

#!/bin/bash
for i in {0..999..1}
  do
     echo "Wallet Copy $i..."
     cp ~/.bitcoin/wallet.dat /mnt/SDcard/wallet.$i
 done
echo "Just backed up wallet to SD card 1000 times.
echo "One of those will probably be good."


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January 25, 2012, 07:20:24 PM
 #50

The metal layers are grounded to dissipate any electric currents generated from the external electromagnetic fields and thus block a large amount of the electromagnetic interference.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage


However you're not completely wrong...

If a charge is placed inside an ungrounded Faraday cage, the internal face of the cage will be charged (in the same manner described for an external charge) to prevent the existence of a field inside the body of the cage. However, this charging of the inner face would re-distribute the charges in the body of the cage. This charges the outer face of the cage with a charge equal in sign and magnitude to the one placed inside the cage. Since the internal charge and the inner face cancel each other out, the spread of charges on the outer face is not affected by the position of the internal charge inside the cage. So for all intents and purposes, the cage will generate the same electric field it would generate if it was simply charged by the charge placed inside.

If the cage is grounded, the excess charges will go to the ground instead of the outer face, so the inner face and the inner charge will cancel each other out and the rest of the cage would remain neutral.

----

Ours is grounded.



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January 25, 2012, 07:34:51 PM
 #51

Dumb Question,  we store all the bitcoins sent to cold storage in a vault that is a faraday cage shielded to protect against something like this.

My question is due to us getting bombarded every 2 days now with CME's coming from the sun,  the next one scheduled to hit earth tomorrow is that something I could be using for promotional stuff?   

In case you don't know what I am talking about,  as you're reading this planes are being diverted due to the electromagnetic storm.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/01/23/planes-rerouted-fearing-strongest-radiation-storm-in-7-years/


Like your bitcoins would be safe even in the event of a larger one such as a Carrington Event if they are sent to flexcoin's cold storage option.


If a powerfull solar storm hits the Earth, our Bitcoins will be our last concern. Believe me, people will burn dollars and euros just to warm soup.

The remaining Bitcoin hashporwer will be much easier to do a 51% attack... So, the blockchain will be gone...

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