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Author Topic: Theoretical cryptocurrency that globally verifies so fast it can stream audio  (Read 3705 times)
BenRayfield
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January 26, 2012, 06:02:01 AM
 #1

...compared to Bitcoin which runs on 10 minute cycles with faster estimates.

Do transactions the same as in Bitcoin, except no blocks or scripts or other complexities.

Run the whole network like a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_hash_table

Part of it would be similar to this, except no node owns a space of the keys. The many dimensional space would just be to order the transactions so they could be organized as leafs in a binary tree in realtime.
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Keyspace partitioning
Most DHTs use some variant of consistent hashing to map keys to nodes. This technique employs a function δ(k1,k2) that defines an abstract notion of the distance between the keys k1 and k2, which is unrelated to geographical distance or network latency. Each node is assigned a single key called its identifier (ID). A node with ID ix owns all the keys km for which ix is the closest ID, measured according to δ(km,ix).

There would be no root of the merkle trees. It would be a large number of merkle forests that converge toward trees but never get there because its streaming so fast and constantly AVL-rotating the binary merkle trees to limit their depth and balance them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVL_tree

Instead of paying 50 (or 25 or 12.5...) bitcoins, plus the transaction fees, to the miner of each block, pay some fraction of the remaining transaction fee of all child transactions to the miner of each AVL branch. Each transaction would be paid to log_base_2(total number of transactions ever in the network)*rotationMultiplier*averageNumberOfTreeTypes addresses, where rotationMultiplier allows for AVL-rotations and paying miners whose block stays around for some time but is obsoleted by an AVL-rotation, and averageNumberOfTreeTypes distributes the transaction fee between the different trees its a member of, 1 tree for each dimension, and nobody knows exactly how many trees there are for security reasons.

Some mined branches will pay off and most won't, because the decentralized AVL tree is constantly rotating to limit its depth and balance itself.

To cause a small but big enough fraction of the transaction fees of AVL branches to be paid to the miners of those branches, each AVL branch is also a transaction and is submitted to the network the same way.

When you first think about it, that sounds like it would cause an infinite loop of more and more transactions being created, but the loop is closed by the miners of AVL branches being motivated to mine on the things they're branching together and the address they send it to simultaneously, since that way less work is done for more mining. It can be done in many combinations and whatever turns out to be most consistent will be the most efficient way of mining.

Since its a binary merkle tree, the number of internal nodes is always 1 less than the number of leafs, so it is practically small.

No computer needs to store or use more than a small fraction of the transactions. All objects are transactions. Transactions and blocks and AVL binary merkle tree nodes are all the same thing.

The major advantage of this design is transactions are searchable by all their addresses therefore its trivial to immediately check for double spending by searching the decentralized binary tree for the relevant addresses and/or previous transactions.

Like in a distributed hashtable, transactions, as the values of the keys, would be stored based on many dimensions. Those dimensions could be substitution ciphers or other kinds of secure-hashing of the existing hashcodes and addresses of the transaction. This exponentially increases the security because no computer knows all the ways any specific transaction is stored, in many different binary trees keyed by a different substitution cipher or secure-hash of the same data. Therefore a small number of random searches of the network for transactions, across different binary trees, should reveal deception quickly. Every binary tree should have the same data. If it doesn't, the incompatible branches of those binary trees are dropped from the local computer and only their branches are used, to be AVL-rotated and branched higher for more mining rewards.

The network organizes itself. Every AVL branch knows which range of binary numbers it supposedly contains, so you know to traverse it or not, and trust it based on a few random searches into it for things you know (1) are, and (2) are not there.

Bittorrent can stream large data to many addresses at once. New cryptocurrency could benefit from taking some design elements from Bitcoin and Bittorrent.

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January 26, 2012, 06:17:26 AM
 #2

Sounds promising.  I'd suggest writing it up as a white paper and starting work on a reference implementation.

If all the sovereign non-cryptocurrencies will eventually collapse from hyperinflation, you can't afford *not* to invest in Bitcoin...  See my blog at http://minetopics.blogspot.com/ .

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BenRayfield
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January 26, 2012, 11:30:53 AM
 #3

I'll get there. I have alot of ideas that cover many unfinished projects, and I'm trying to form them into 1 consistent simple system. Where I'm going with this new kind of cryptocurrency is a statistical approximate kind of money more useful for fairly trading network bandwidth, neural networks, instantly creating votes on any question or set of URLs, crowdsourcing, decentralized search indexs for patterns of text, audio, pictures, video, high dimensional waves like from mind reading game controllers, creating a software interface for any programming language where you can make a function call that calls into this network and routes the task to a person who quickly writes code to solve the problem, then back through the network, and the function returns with human intelligence (from a real person), and pays that person the negotiated amount (similar to what the B-Money paper proposed but automated), protein folding optimizations through this high dimensional search ability (through the many overlapping AVL trees), simulations like what the Spore game was supposed to be before they gave up and went with a 5 level model of life, patterns of thoughts flowing together through the internet...

I'm not insane enough to think I can do all that, but I can give a general and very simple realtime decentralized many dimensional search engine that implements its own money system and create a global economy for adding those things as plugins. Google, for example, would be working for the open source community, selling everyone their artificial intelligence tools to hook into this new economy, as dollars and all other centralized money are devalued to 0 and we open source the global economy.

Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn... These are simple combinations of the data types found all over the Internet... text, pictures, links, network shapes, and pattern matching. Because of their proprietary competition, they have slowed eachother down while open source accelerated. Their entire business model depends on censoring the Internet in the way that most computers have client connections and can't communicate directly to eachother, so we go through these middlemen and their simple data structures that network people and their ideas together. As I've described in this thread, we can do our own network routing, search indexing, and cryptocurrency at very small granularity, and tune between accuracy and speed based on the purpose of each money type.

Businesses consider a global electronic voting system to be a billions of dollars project. I consider it to be the cost of USB identity sticks for our physical keyrings plus the tiny cost of writing some code to count as it iterates a decentralized AVL tree. Its a few lines of code.

Here's an implementation of an AVL tree I created for floating points, as an example: http://sourceforge.net/projects/wavetree In log cpu and memory, it can return the total wave amplitude for any floating point range regardless of how big, something that a linear search would be very expensive for. Similarly, this cryptocurrency's AVL trees can keep track of the number of bits and the number of 1 bits in each AVL branch, like error checking bits, and various other measures of the descendant branches, so even a 1 bit error anywhere in a huge deep branch is probable to be found by searching a few random paths in it and cross checking the mirroring AVL trees that use a different view of the hashcodes. The bits wont add up as the parent branches claim.

Free speech is everyone's right, and it will be protected with the market force of cryptocurrency pushing the network routing to its destination.

Its a very simple and powerful design. Protein folding may appear to be a very complex subject, but all it takes to generate an efficient simulation of it is to define a programming interface for mapping wave patterns and distances recursively to other patterns and distances, so what states of the physics lead to what other states gets recursively cached at many levels, and define part of this economy as paying toward more efficient compression of those patterns. Competition would drive that cryptocurrency economy to derive a grand unification theory and represent it in the software, since that is the direction of higher compression efficiency of protein folding patterns. Some people think intelligence is compression.

Realtime high dimensional statistically overlapping Merkle AVL forests are generally useful for any kind of pattern matching and content addressable memory and decentralized searching because each merkle avl forest can represent a dimension of sorting any arbitrary data, like by its similarity to a certain wave pattern or 3d shape or quantity of certain words or social networking patterns or brainwaves... anything the peer to peer network agrees that dimension will be sorted by, that's what the bits mean when objects are put into that dimension. By defining dimensions as object that can be members of other dimensions, the system becomes self-referencing and the cryptocurrency economy will drive it to map the dimensions onto eachother in useful patterns. I don't have to build any of this. It will build itself after even the smallest of these potential services are working. If it only copies byte arrays in exchange for numbers, that would change the world, like Bitcoin+Bittorrent but much simpler. The interface would be something simple like boolean compare(BigInteger xBits, BigInteger yBits), where xBits and yBits would be any kind of object in the whole computing world, and the compare function defines how a dimension is sorted, where those bits fit into it. Then the dimensions map the bits to eachother and the economy competes to make it all fit together most consistently. The simpler we make the code, the more it can do.

boolean compare(BigInteger xBits, BigInteger yBits) may look too simple to become a global economy, but theres many ways to use it. If its for a dimension of sender money address, and another dimension is for receiver money address (for a certain kind of money), the network may support (depending on what plugins are added) using some of that cryptocurrency money to run a network action of generate a new dimension for any database-like query, and it pays as many computers on the network as needed (based on supply and demand) to do searches using their own bandwidth and put together the requested information. The difference between http://wolframalpha.com and this system, as I'm planning it, is mostly that http://wolframalpha.com was designed around the data types and specifics of the world, and this system is designed to do as little as possible which is to implement an economy and a plugin interface to generate whatever is needed at the time. http://wolframalpha.com is flawed because it presumes to tell the data what model it should fit into. boolean compare(BigInteger xBits, BigInteger yBits) can implement a Turing Machine, if we wanted it to, since it could sort by what is more or less like the next state of a specific Turing Machine, as the peer to peer network would agree on through various other dimensions and objects sorted in them. This system could create jobs at the granularity of thoughts instead of 9-5 monday - friday. Job comes. React with a useful thought. Get paid a dollar. Job returns somewhere in the network. You move on. We can work with artificial intelligences as plugins motivated by this variety of kinds of economies as defined by democracy of everyone in the network. Try to regulate this economy and you're regulating math and thinking. Government has no business writing code if they can't get the world to flow together as 1 system. I see wars and greed as a result of what governments do. Lets build a global brain made of all our communications and calculations and jobs and theories and technology. The global infrastructure is so broken that counting votes is a serious research problem. Counting, really? Is that our competition? Bitcoin is an advance in counting technology, so it must be. As a species, we recently learned to count. This system, or one like it, will become the new global infrastructure and economy and way power flows simply because it can organize numbers, count, sort things, move money between people for doing tasks, and direct attention to various things to further expand the cryptocurrency economy. If a majority of people agrees they prefer a certain few words over the words written by governments, that is democracy. The words become our new way to organize the world, just like through Bitcoin people agree certain numbers are the way we organize the world. Laws are words. Money is numbers. They're both communication, and they're both our right to free speech.

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Killdozer
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January 26, 2012, 09:03:25 PM
 #4

Seems overly complicated...
What is the point if this system? Does it provide something which neither bitcoin nor DHT does?

If there is no chain block and transactions are simply put in DHT buckets, what is going to ensure the order of say, 2 transactions with the same inputs (or equivalent in your network), and thus, which one is a valid one and which one is a double-spend attempt?

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January 27, 2012, 06:29:53 AM
 #5

Sounds promising.  I'd suggest writing it up as a white paper and starting work on a reference implementation.
I second that.
And pleeeease use modern and free language for reference
 implementation (say like Go http://golang.org), but NOT Java(too slow
 and eats to many resources ).

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January 27, 2012, 06:36:23 AM
 #6

Seems overly complicated...
What is the point if this system?
+1

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January 27, 2012, 10:02:07 AM
 #7

Seems overly complicated...
What is the point if this system?
+1

What, you don't want to trade three bars of streamed "Let It Be" for any three bars of streamed "Brandenburg Concertos"? But how can you even tell whether that is a good deal or a bad deal without such a system?!?!

-MarkM-

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BenRayfield
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January 28, 2012, 05:37:02 AM
 #8

In a very abstract way... The point of it is to have a global namespace and general peer to peer infrastructure that we can organize the world through, instead of businesses continuing to control the gates to the Internet and control society that way. We shouldn't have to sign a legal agreement to communicate through the Internet, but ISPs require it. This will first be done on a peer to peer network of servers and later expand into wireless mesh networks as the Internet becomes peer to peer at the hardware level too. As it is now, most Internet connections are client connections and can't communicate directly to eachother. The server-client model is censoring all communications that would have happened directly between clients, connections that will be routed through this proxy network instead. Its like Tor without the encryption and with a cryptocurrency built in to pay for bandwidth, but like any network you can encrypt your data before sending if you want. The network storage would operate as a decentralized rental service, costing proportional to size of data multiplied by time it must stay on the network. Streaming data will allow deletion after a few seconds to save money. Forum posts could start as just enough money to keep them around for others to read and others could put in more money to keep them around, to vote for those posts, so the network tends toward the most popular content while still allowing individuals to pay for specific content to stay on the network if they have enough money to pay the free market. This model doesn't need the exactness of Bitcoin. Its more fluid and realtime and can work with only an approximation of the transfer of money (but exact money could be supported if its worth the extra calculations and bandwidth), since that's all it takes to support an economy of communication of any kinds of data. Censoring the Internet is financial suicide in a free market with Tor and this software as the competition.


More practically, I'm going to start this as a simple cryptocurrency and a product that can be bought to back its value. The product will be communication of pairs of short texts in a 3d space navigated with a web browser or more efficiently in a downloaded program. Each pair of text is attracted to eachother in the 3d space depending on how much cryptocurrency is paid into that pair, so related ideas gravitate toward eachother. Its a new kind of chatroom.

The gravity between each 2 texts will be some function of the money paid into that pair. For example, using the log of that money amount would limit the influence of money and protect free speech while still giving it enough importance to motivate spending it on pairs of text. Using the amount of money directly as gravity amount is similar to how advertising works, and we know how annoying and unproductive that can be, so I'll leave that function as an option to be agreed on through democratic convergence of the people using the network.

People would try it just because its a 3d Internet of text. Its new. It makes reading webpages look like old news. They will put up their own servers and hook them into http://FreeSpeechJustPayShipping.com (where I'm planning to put up the first peer to peer node) running the software I'll put at http://sourceforge.net/projects/freespeechpay

What would people want to say in the form of pairs of short texts? How about paying this new cryptocurrency toward the connection between "Federal Reserve" and "legally counterfeits money and pays to create laws supporting its manipulation of the global economy", or between positive words and your website, or between election candidates and their positions on the issues, or between "Wikileaks" and new Internet addresses to their servers (My position on Wikileaks is that broadcasting evidence of crimes is legal but many of their other broadcasts were unjustified, and we have the right to free speech as needed for broadcasting evidence of crimes), or between your name and your friends names on social networking websites or Bitcoin addresses. I expect the main thing it will be used for is a forum, in a 3d associative way instead of a list or hierarchy of posts. Voting will be done with the built in cryptocurrency.

It doesn't even need cryptocurrency to do that in the simplest way. Money paid into a pair of short texts could be interpreted as 2 exponent number of leading zeros of a SHA256 hash of the combination of those 2 texts (in some simple data structure), like Bitcoin uses as "proof of work". That shortcut is a way to represent money as generated where you want to spend it. It couldn't be spent again, but its still a very simple kind of money and would be a way for computers to agree how much money is on each pair of short texts. When asked for the adjacent texts of a certain text, each computer would respond with maybe the 20 adjacent texts with the highest "proof of work" of a pair with the specified text. In a 3d space, not all pairs can be displayed at the same time, so it generates competition.

Is that simple enough?


My long-term plan for the 3d cryptocurrency weighted chatroom, where cryptocurrency defines gravity between pairs of texts, will network everyone's ideas together as they converge toward what a majority of the world agrees on, whats most important to the Human species, like a Wikipedia of weighted networks of text instead of linear pages, and as our words start to have the weight of money, as a unified global voice we write new laws into the network as easily as we write opinions on the Internet today, demonstrating the deepest meaning of democracy which is whatever the most people agree on as their ideas converge toward a consistent plan and model of the world. A contract is a law agreed on between people who sign it. A government is an agreement between its people. If money is power and our words have the weight of money, there is no practical difference between the words the most people agree on and laws. I don't want to take over the world. I want the world to run itself instead of any small group of people. This new kind of chatroom is 1 of many parts of what I call the Global Decentralization Process. We the 7 billion people are learning to organize the world without hierarchies, without anyone being above or below anyone else. There is no need to violently overthrow any government because we can do it with decentralized market force. We have learned to play the game. Now the hierarchies will learn to play ours or go bankrupt.

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January 28, 2012, 06:12:12 AM
 #9


Is that simple enough?

No, not on my end.

Also, what is the point? Since that floated by you, much as your ramblings float by the rest of mankind, let me rephrase.


"What is the point?" can be interpreted as a two part question.
To fix ideas, think of a typical internet user.

What want or desire would your technology help this individual fulfill?
Why can't they fulfill this want or desire with pre-existing technology?

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January 28, 2012, 06:34:46 AM
 #10

A 3d Internet of text associated to other text is fun. They will fly around in 3d and type text wherever they want, paid for by their computing power which generates the cryptocurrency used to type text into it or to connect existing texts stronger. As more people start using it, there will be more content, more people viewing and changing that content, and therefore more demand to pay for specific connections between texts as advertising or broadcasting your opinion or whatever is valuable to say. Its a feedback loop. Getting the first few people to start using it is much harder, but a little well timed advertising can handle that if it doesn't start on its own.

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January 28, 2012, 06:49:16 AM
 #11

A 3d Internet of text associated to other text is fun. They will fly around in 3d and type text wherever they want, paid for by their computing power which generates the cryptocurrency used to type text into it or to connect existing texts stronger. As more people start using it, there will be more content, more people viewing and changing that content, and therefore more demand to pay for specific connections between texts as advertising or broadcasting your opinion or whatever is valuable to say. Its a feedback loop. Getting the first few people to start using it is much harder, but a little well timed advertising can handle that if it doesn't start on its own.

Okay, not compelling to me. But lots of things people like don't make sense to me. I suggest you check with the others.

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January 28, 2012, 07:12:24 AM
 #12

People pay to do simulated work in a simulated farm on Facebook and buy eachother chickens and other boring items to help eachothers' farms. They love new kinds of communication and interacting with eachother enough to do simulated tedious work. I think the 3d associative chatroom/forum is one of those things thats easy to understand when you're in it but hard to explain. I can make predictions about how people will use it and how the open source networks will evolve because I've thought for years about such abstractions and how minds work and memes, and it all converges toward the need for networks where our thoughts flow together, where we can think more like 1 global brain without thinking about being a global brain. This is the next evolution of Wikipedia and http://sourceforge.net/projects/freemind and other kinds of mind mapping and online democracy. But don't take my word for it. Try it when I put it up at http://FreeSpeechJustPayShipping.com soon. The only question in my mind is how advanced it has to become before it expands like a viral youtube video.

It can be run in a Java applet served from any peer, so the applet would be a duplicate of the server code running at the peer that can only communicate with that peer because of browser security, so it doesn't even require downloading a program to run it efficiently. We could hook into any website through normal URLs, if those websites want to join the network, like http://anywebsite.com/This%20is%20the%20sentence%20I%20want%20to%20find%20adjacents%20of would return a small page of sentences its most strongly linked to (as defined by SHA256 "proof of work" of each pair of text hashed together with nonce/salt). That way, a simple file server could mirror snapshots of huge data of this network without paying for a full server that lets you run programs, and using the same URLs a dynamic server could do the same thing and react in realtime. Then we start using the short texts as URLs to pictures and videos and other large data, since we have the bandwidth. The world goes peer to peer.

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January 28, 2012, 12:47:30 PM
 #13

I have seen clouds of words on websites all seemingly produced by some similar app(s) or widgets, that show, I tend to guess, words someone or something somehow relates to that website. The words have different size fonts, leading me to guess how relevant each word is by someone or something imagined or calculated to be is reflected by its size.

One can "WTF?" those clouds, but somehow they found their way onto a number of sites, and that probably required their somehow gaining some mindshare in some web-literate humans somehow.

How? I dunno.

But like Cunicula said, just because ya don't grok it yaself don't mean some idiot or genius or normal jane/joe somewhere isn't gonna buy into it in some sense.

-MarkM-

EDIT: But not sure how the streaming autdio fits into the picture though... text to speech with 3d sound library so you can hear how far apart the different utterances are, maybe?

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Let's talk governance, lipstick, and pigs.


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January 28, 2012, 02:37:01 PM
 #14

I think I have crush on this thread.  Cheesy

Any significantly advanced cryptocurrency is indistinguishable from Ponzi Tulips.
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January 28, 2012, 03:40:01 PM
 #15

markm, those clouds of words with links within a website are simply a menu, while I did see one that modified itself as I clicked toward related groups of links, but even then its for navigating existing content. A chatroom/forum where anyone can type in sentences anywhere in the 3d network of other sentences, is the difference between a book and the Internet. Books used to be controlled by publishers, but now anyone can publish their words to whoever wants to read them. Social networking websites are accelerating in popularity and interconnectedness for 1 simple reason: brains are shaped like networks more than hierarchies. It will be a little similar to my http://mousesearch3d.com (which displays networks of wikipedia page names near those they link to, as I data mined the 10000 most important pages using a simple algorithm of keeping pages with more reverse links than forward links as the set of pages shrank) but unlike that website this 3d chatroom will appear as an endless space of text and will stay mostly the same shape as it vibrates as defined by the physics equations in the program. Connecting words adds gravity between them. The vibrations will be small gravity waves. It would also be a multiverse if connections were between many words at a time instead of just pairs, since the sets of words would overlap eachother like a puzzle sometimes and other times not fit so some other puzzle piece goes there this time, but I'm trying to keep it simple for now.

Later I'd like to set up a second 3d chatroom for a different purpose.... The same way it networks sentences together as people agree on what should be related to what else, I think this could organize people on a level of thinking as 1 mind enough that we could use chess boards as the sentences and links would be moves from one setup of the chess game to the next or previous possible move. There are many paths that lead to the same setup of the board. Its a network, not a tree. And I think if we get enough people playing a global chess game that way, we could win a Humans vs Deep Blue artificial intelligence game and take back the crown from that computer which is far to slow to simulate even 1 Human brain and is just very specialized in chess.

People act very much like artificial intelligence in the way they pursue a number which is controlled by equations that are continuously adjusted based on observations of the world toward the goal of directing those peoples' efforts toward some outcome on the next observations. In general an economy is simply an artificial intelligence designed by people who know so little math they can't balance a budget. When I design an economy, its based on psychology and game-theory and skill in artificial intelligence and many angles of viewing the problem. Its not just whatever works to patch the system. The log factor for the gravity I wrote above comes from natural language research which works best when the log of counts of words are used instead of just the counts directly, in a high dimensional clustering way. Repeating something means less each time. Repeating a million times means 2 times as much as repeating 1000 times. That's a log scale. So I'm thinking the cryptocurrency should generate log amount of gravity instead of the full force, so the ideas flow more evenly and big computing power can't overpower an idea since it would branch to many similar text and flow around the large amount of cryptocurrency/proof-of-work.

Wikipedia has more power than all the militaries of all countries together, since the networks of links and ideas in Wikipedia can cause Egypt to be taken over by its people or cause those people to think the world works a different way and maybe they should leave things as they are. Twitter and other communication systems were only the last few steps of a much bigger network of events. Wikipedia is a democracy of global thoughts flowing together in a consistent way that fits together like a puzzle, and I don't see many pieces missing or not fitting right. Its the core of the global brain except for money and politics, but Wikipedia is more powerful than all of that. I'm not just building a forum/chatroom. I'm building a new piece of that global puzzle that fits between peoples thoughts and Wikipedia pages and Bitcoin addresses and URLs and everything on the Internet that can be referenced with a short text. Its a very specific solution for a very specific piece of the global puzzle thats missing, which is the peoples control of associations between things and to control the amounts of those associations. Brains associate things. The forum/chatroom is the piece of the global puzzle that fits the natural associative ability of brains together with the global infrastructure. Governments, countries, central banks, and other kinds of hierarchies, are the pieces of the global puzzle not fitting with how brains work, as networks instead of hierarchies. When the Human species starts to think more like a global brain, like in social networks and Wikipedia and Bitcoin and this new kind of associative forum/chatroom, there will soon be world peace since war is a side-effect of the global puzzle not fitting together in a way we can understand whats going on or how to change it. The patterns of global events are very predictable using meme theory.


This can be explained in terms of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermodynamics

Countries and corporations and governments and the central bank system are http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endothermic because they absorb value of our efforts in the form of dollars, thinking in ways they prefer as influenced through centralized media, a paradoxically unsolvable debt system where the total money owed is always more than the total money that exists, regulating communication devices and content (patents, E911 chips in cell phones, Wikileaks' bank account attacked, accountability of an owner of a service for what users communicate through the service if owner does not control such communication after learning of it...), and other ways of communication ability and other forms of value tending to flow up the hierarchies more than down. Those things may be justified or not, but the point is the global hierarchies have endothermic behavior, toward them more than consumers.

"Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are each in thermal equilibrium with a third, they are also in thermal equilibrium with each other."

In the context of global events and the associative chatroom/forum and cryptocurrency research path, that means those forms of communication and money which the hierarchies do in an endothermic way, if those forms touch eachother, the heat with equalize between those hierarchies and monopolies flow outward toward competition. This is why businesses put much resources toward keeping their proprietary secrets and patenting ideas so nobody else can use them except in the normal endothermic way, with value flowing toward that endothermic system more than outward. Being in thermal equilibrium is bad for business since you only get paid a free market price instead of a monopoly price.

"First law of thermodynamics: A change in the internal energy of a closed thermodynamic system is equal to the difference between the heat supplied to the system and the amount of work done by the system on its surroundings."

If we add "proof of work" to the "associative chatroom/forum and cryptocurrency research path", that allows people to waste heat in the form of useless calculations attached to any pair of short texts. It attaches proof of negative heat to specific ideas.

"Second law of thermodynamics: Heat cannot spontaneously flow from a colder location to a hotter location."

The global hierarchies are endothermic. They suck in heat, a measure of useful productive power, which makes them feel cold to those the heat flows from. So what will they do when a system is created that is colder than them as a result of wasting calculations on "proof of work"? They will be very confused. Heat is flowing into useless calculations instead of their pockets. The negative heat is not flowing randomly. Its accurately associated with pairs of short text, as the users of the chatroom/forum have agreed thats what the "proof of work" calculations mean, that within the network we will share the pairs of text which have the highest "proof of work" associated with them. Its an agreement of which communications will be spread with higher priority. That means we can make any subject we want colder than the endothermic global hierarchies. We don't have enough heat to do that for any large area, but we can target it on very specific subjects and be more endothermic than the global hierarchies. Therefore, by the second law of thermodynamics (which is a mostly reliable pattern but not absolute), heat must flow from the global hierarchies into the associative chatroom/forum, probably in the form of more people starting to use it and writing more associations about how the world works, connecting them more, and draining their heat into the associative chatroom/forum repeatedly until we reach global equilibrium.

Doing "proof of work" calculations made Bitcoin endothermic enough to suck many millions of dollars out of the global economy without putting in that money to trade, just sucking out the value like global hierarchies suck value out of most people more than giving value, and it created a feedback loop that drove its price up exponentially. Similarly, the associative chatroom/forum will use "proof of work" useless calculations to control which ideas become endothermic and create exponential feedback loops. If someone tries to help or fights the associative chatroom/forum, either way they are putting pressure on some idea in that system, and we will mine that pressure like a windmill mines waves in air. Its like a brain. Whichever ways the global power flows, it follows them as a chatroom/forum networking our thoughts together, pointing the windmill whichever directions it needs to be at the time. If they try to censor the Internet, that's what people write about in the associations and we figure out whats causing that global pattern.

It becomes temporarily endothermic (proof of work, wasting heat) in whatever subject is most endothermic of global patterns.

"Zeroth law of thermodynamics: If two systems are each in thermal equilibrium with a third, they are also in thermal equilibrium with each other."

It will give people a way to precisely target and drain power from how the world works today by using "proof of work" to generate feedback loops of attention at anything in the world that gets too powerful. They're not closed systems anymore if we can refer to their combinations with endothermic pointers.

But is this really so different from what businesses and governments and banks do? By creating a feedback loop of exponentially more useless "proof of work" calculations, more and more people join the system and organize around that idea, that whoever does the most useless calculations has strengthened the system of doing useless calculations and calling it money and value and progress. If we attract people away from businesses to instead make their living maintaining the computers to do these useless "proof of work" calculations (really its designed to count how much useless calculations the computer does, a competition of that), then haven't we created jobs?

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markm
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January 28, 2012, 07:24:34 PM
 #16

Job creating is probably wasteful, since people don't usually want *jobs*, they more usually want *money*, and for some shortsighted or becoming-outdated reason a lot of people still seem to think that money should only be handed out to people who "do jobs" or "have jobs".

In reality, it probably takes less and less people all the time to do what actually needs doing, so there should be more and more people-hours all the time that need not be spent "doing jobs". That can equate to more and more people who don't have jobs, or less and less job-hours per person who does do/have job(s), but overall with less and less that "needs" doing, we have to find other rationalisations for handing out money or make up pointless useless wasteful "jobs" or make jobs take less and less time per person having a job so that more and more people can have jobs but jobs take much less percent of a person's time to "do".

A consumer society needs consumers, and if it wants to hand out goodies to consumers based on the consumers having some kind of "goodie tickets" aka "money" then it has to equip as many people with as many such tickets as are needed to consume the goodies produced.

So I guess having people spend time maintaining machines that do wasteful calculations is as good a way of "keeping them off the streets" as any other arbitrary "makework program", if for some reason you are compelled to have people "do jobs" in order to be politically permitted to equip them with society's "goodie tokens" sufficient for them to their other "job" which is that of "consuming"...

-MarkM-

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January 31, 2012, 03:45:38 AM
 #17

markm, I agree about the idea of jobs becoming obsolete or less important as cryptocurrencies allow smaller transactions of tasks in exchange for numbers flowing through the Internet.

What I wrote about jobs was sarcasm about how it would be profitable to create new jobs of people maintaining computers only to do useless Bitcoin-style "proof of work" calculations. Politicians often talk about creating jobs, as if that adds value by itself. What kind of world do we live in where an economy for doing useless calculations can survive, as it does for Bitcoin miners? Its proof of deep problems in how the world is organized.

More to the point, I've got a working 3d text program, and a very high quality data set mined from Wikipedia to generate the very needed first interest from people, and am now scaling it up (since it has to do collision-detection and reorganize toward associated words being closer, but it is much easier with only colored lines and words instead of polygons) to handle my target of 1 million short texts with an average of 100 links between them per server/peer, in the memory at once, and maybe more on hard drive. I'm going to try hosting http://FreeSpeechJustPayShipping.com at Amazon's cloud for the first peer to peer node soon, since Amazon can scale from a normal computer to a grid of supercomputers with a few clicks. But hopefully during that people will be motivated to put up their own peer nodes.

This program looks like something out of science fiction. People are going to jump all over this when it goes up.

I'm going to have movement be done by grabbing words and pulling toward them, to swing on them like a monkey swinging on branches. Or it could also be done like a flying game, but swinging would probably be more fun. So far I've just got the 6 dimensional (x y z red green blue) affine transformations doing rotations with no mouse control. What I'm doing with words and lines, like a more advanced version of http://mousesearch3d.com think of what we could do with pictures and other Internet objects instead of just words, all in 1 big 3d space everyone uses at the same time, organized by "proof of work" and/or cryptocurrency.

I know this got far off subject of my original post, but we can think of that as a research path and this is where I'm starting.

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