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Author Topic: Bitcoin & Regulations: Lessons From Skype article is a must read  (Read 1675 times)
serenitys (OP)
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May 26, 2014, 09:16:38 PM
 #1

http://www.coindesk.com/bitcoin-regulation-lessons-early-days-skype/

Fantastic article. The solution is quite simple. How would the bitcoin community (from this forum) be able to get this message, this sentiment, and this demand into the hands of the bigger bitcoin companies who are focusing on trying to get "regulated" so they can do business as money transmitters?

Maybe there's a better way to go about this and stop calling themselves ducks?

You say "anti government" like that's a bad thing...

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May 26, 2014, 09:44:58 PM
 #2

From the article:" The first companies that connected Skype to the phone network took risks. These partners need clear arguments around why they are safe and why the service they provide is in compliance with the rules."

I'd argue that most Bitcoin companies are really "partners" and they need the regulatory arguments around why they are safe...

Hardforks aren't that hard. It’s getting others to use them that's hard.
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May 27, 2014, 04:03:15 AM
 #3

Great read! It does seem like the entire bit coin ecosystem is begging for legitimacy from government regulators. The expectation should be that government has to prove it needs to regulate something rather than trying to fit ourselves within some set of regulations.

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May 27, 2014, 04:42:58 AM
 #4

As I understand it, Skype used to operate as peer-to-peer software with encryption.

Now, MIcrosoft owns it, and everything goes through central servers: facilitating lawful intercept capability.

Òne difference between Bitcoin and Skype is that Bitcoin if Free software, while Skype is proprietary. This means the peer-to-peer capabilities cannot be forcibly removed without tampering with the Internet.

James' OpenPGP public key fingerprint: EB14 9E5B F80C 1F2D 3EBE  0A2F B3DE 81FF 7B9D 5160
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May 27, 2014, 03:30:28 PM
Last edit: May 27, 2014, 04:16:46 PM by BittBurger
 #5

Gox happened.  And then I realized.  Anarchy is idiocy.  Because human beings are dicks.  Quite a few of us, if allowed to do whatever we want, would do horrible things to eachother.  

Bottom line is this:  Skype and Bitcoin are a poor comparison.  Worst thing that happens with unregulated Skype is someone drops a call.
Bitcoin is money.  Worst thing that happens with money?  Life savings are lost.  Lives are ruined.
That's why regulation is more of a topic with Bitcoin.

If you want Bitcoin to continue to be ignored by the public because month after month, some new asshole is stealing mass volumes of them from people, then by all means, keep ranting that there should be "NO REGULATION".    

Otherwise, realize that human beings are corrupt.  And third party services (not bitcoin itself) need to be regulated, or the disasters will continue to happen.  Regulation, done right, saves us from losers who don't know right from wrong.  Or don't care.  The key is responsible regulation that doesn't overstep its bounds or stifle innovation.  Assholes need to be restricted, hindered, and monitored.  I think everyone here agrees with that.  Except maybe Amir Taaki.

Anarchists and Libertarians love Bitcoin because it restricts institutional corruption.  Yet they push an ideology that involves "no rules" (freedom) for the general public.  The institution itself must be corrupt.  Yet apparently the general public is made up of angels.  And people with jobs are the only dicks.  The logic escapes me.  I think most of these folks just hate authority in general.  As children, someone in authority abused their power.  Now they're adults, and they hate anyone who makes any rules.  About anything.  They'll sit at a border patrol checkpoint in AZ for 2 hours like a tool, because they refuse to say "American" when asked their citizenship (John Bush - Lets Talk Bitcoin / Sovereign BTC Podcast host).

Simply put, because people like Mark Karpeles exist, we need someone to stop them from ruining people's lives. That doesn't mean Bitcoin has to suffer.   If Bitcoin has a reputation for being safe, reliable, and welcoming, it wont suffer.  It will flourish.  Leave the 3rd party services unregulated, and your stash of coins will never be worth more than $500.  And nobody's going to fucking use it.

Caveat:  If regulation can be "recreated" by mathematical algorhythms, then I am all for that too.  It doesn't always have to come from institutions.  A big part of what the Bitcoin paradigm is introducing, is the possibility of a self-regulating environment.  I am excited to see if this is even possible, because it *will* be superior to institutional regulation.  Not because institutions are corrupt.  But because human beings in general are often corrupt.  Even Libertarians.

-B-

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May 27, 2014, 03:46:20 PM
 #6

That's the best post I've read for a good while, BittBurger. I've been saying the same thing since the last goxxing occurred.
Sadly, the cultists will just ignore you or call you a statist.
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May 27, 2014, 04:51:25 PM
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Anarchists and Libertarians love Bitcoin because it restricts institutional corruption.  Yet they push an ideology that involves "no ruleRs" (freedom) for the general public.  

FTFY
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May 27, 2014, 05:44:17 PM
 #8

bitcoin is just open source software

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May 27, 2014, 05:45:04 PM
 #9

if you want to avoid another centralized mtgox disaster, make a bitcoin service that is like open transactions, decentralized
not by going to regulation

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serenitys (OP)
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May 27, 2014, 06:17:18 PM
Last edit: May 27, 2014, 06:43:25 PM by serenitys
 #10

Gox happened.  And then I realized.  Anarchy is idiocy.  Because human beings are dicks.  Quite a few of us, if allowed to do whatever we want, would do horrible things to eachother.  

Bottom line is this:  Skype and Bitcoin are a poor comparison.  Worst thing that happens with unregulated Skype is someone drops a call.
Bitcoin is money.  Worst thing that happens with money?  Life savings are lost.  Lives are ruined.
That's why regulation is more of a topic with Bitcoin.

If you want Bitcoin to continue to be ignored by the public because month after month, some new asshole is stealing mass volumes of them from people, then by all means, keep ranting that there should be "NO REGULATION".    

Otherwise, realize that human beings are corrupt.  And third party services (not bitcoin itself) need to be regulated, or the disasters will continue to happen.  Regulation, done right, saves us from losers who don't know right from wrong.  Or don't care.  The key is responsible regulation that doesn't overstep its bounds or stifle innovation.  Assholes need to be restricted, hindered, and monitored.  I think everyone here agrees with that.  Except maybe Amir Taaki.

Anarchists and Libertarians love Bitcoin because it restricts institutional corruption.  Yet they push an ideology that involves "no rules" (freedom) for the general public.  The institution itself must be corrupt.  Yet apparently the general public is made up of angels.  And people with jobs are the only dicks.  The logic escapes me.  I think most of these folks just hate authority in general.  As children, someone in authority abused their power.  Now they're adults, and they hate anyone who makes any rules.  About anything.  They'll sit at a border patrol checkpoint in AZ for 2 hours like a tool, because they refuse to say "American" when asked their citizenship (John Bush - Lets Talk Bitcoin / Sovereign BTC Podcast host).

Simply put, because people like Mark Karpeles exist, we need someone to stop them from ruining people's lives. That doesn't mean Bitcoin has to suffer.   If Bitcoin has a reputation for being safe, reliable, and welcoming, it wont suffer.  It will flourish.  Leave the 3rd party services unregulated, and your stash of coins will never be worth more than $500.  And nobody's going to fucking use it.

Caveat:  If regulation can be "recreated" by mathematical algorhythms, then I am all for that too.  It doesn't always have to come from institutions.  A big part of what the Bitcoin paradigm is introducing, is the possibility of a self-regulating environment.  I am excited to see if this is even possible, because it *will* be superior to institutional regulation.  Not because institutions are corrupt.  But because human beings in general are often corrupt.  Even Libertarians.

-B-

Taking issue with the bold statement, quite literally.

That observation is true but it doesn't have anything to do with anarchism and never did nor should you conclude, based on this observable fact, that anarchism is the problem and shouldn't be "allowed".


It suggests maybe you don't understand the full principle of anarchism...it's always been misunderstood as lack of rules causing chaos, and that would be revolt, not anarchy. Anarchism means "serve no masters" in the context that we are not slaves and we don't bow and kneel to rulers. Anarchism is the only platform that is about personal responsibility and self governance. Meaning get off your knees, pull your head out of your ass, stop looking to someone else to "let" you and do what you need to do for your own well being and best interests...and THAT is why anarchists are drawn to bitcoin. It's another tool that provides self accountability.


What's at issue here is the reason people, when left to their own devices, sometimes go off the deep end and that has nothing to do with anarchism and everything to do with the state of mind of that person's own "operating system". No serial killer has ever been "allowed" to murder. Serial killers aren't practicing anarchism when they take lives. They're not Anarchists. They're psychopaths. Two entirely unrelated, different things.

The rules of society have deemed serial murder a bad thing and serial killers and mass murderers and killers ignore that rule. It doesn't mean the killer's motives are anarchist in nature, he refuses to be told what to do by society. It means there is something wrong with this person who places no value on human existence and no political philosophy will make a damn bit of difference.

Anarchists embrace self governance, leading self, personal accountability, personal responsibility, and hands on, DIY policy. We do not feel you, with all your human frailties, flaws, intellect and choices in life are the best authority to determine what's right for us. We are "allowed" this choice by virtue of our own backbones. Anarchists aren't against rules, regulations and policies. Not even against laws. We recognize some regulation needs to be in place so society can operate peacefully. What Anarchists DON'T agree with is YOU deciding for us what's in our best interests. You can suggest this and that rule or law and if we agree it's a good idea, we'll abide by it. If we don't, we won't and fuck you.

The rest are still emotionally stunted children who arrogantly presume they're the masters of the universe, while living on their knees, terrified of everything and everyone around them, wanting to "outlaw" something whenever they feel the slightest hint of threat and fear.

They cry out to someone ELSE to fix their problems instead of doing the word to fix the problems for themselves.

But the chaos involved in no rules isn't about anarchy outside a rock concert. That's a problem with the perception and paradigm of the one acting out.

Only cowards perceive anarchists as an audacious, arrogant bunch.

You say "anti government" like that's a bad thing...

Unfortunate times will bring out the best in good people and the worst in bad people
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May 27, 2014, 06:40:21 PM
 #11

Gox happened.  And then I realized.  Anarchy is idiocy.  Because human beings are dicks.  Quite a few of us, if allowed to do whatever we want, would do horrible things to eachother.  

You have an unrealistically cynical attitude towards life if you view your fellow species in such a negative light. The evidence indicates that only 1-4% of humans are psychopathic or sociopathic. I believe most of us are good people with good intentions that may have the potential for evil in certain circumstances.

Additionally, I am fairly sure judging from the circles of friends I deal with there was a far greater percentage of anarchists who used common sense and used Bitcoin as intended instead of trading them in for some Gox tokens.

Anarchists and Libertarians love Bitcoin because it restricts institutional corruption.  Yet they push an ideology that involves "no rules" (freedom) for the general public.

This falsehood keeps being repeated. Anarchists are not against rules and regulations generally. This is a common mistake made by those who cannot think about other ways societies can be regulated without a monopoly of theft and violence by leaders, elected or not.

Caveat:  If regulation can be "recreated" by mathematical algorhythms, then I am all for that too.  It doesn't always have to come from institutions.  A big part of what the Bitcoin paradigm is introducing, is the possibility of a self-regulating environment.  I am excited to see if this is even possible, because it *will* be superior to institutional regulation.  Not because institutions are corrupt.  But because human beings in general are often corrupt.  Even Libertarians.

This re-enforces the general misunderstanding about anarchism and how its incorrectly perceived as chaos. Lets work together and find ways to use decentralized muti-sig accounts, merkle trees, ect... in order to audit and regulate our environment instead of trusting in regulated institutions of corruption. Those who advocate a role for state involvement in regulating the Bitcoin ecosystem are missing one of the central principles of its existence.

Charlie Shrem is a prominent example of how playing with that fine line in courting state sponsored regulation and doing business in a free market ecosystem may likely bring you harm. Those who do not heed the dangers of the state may also find a similar fate.

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May 27, 2014, 06:55:44 PM
 #12

Tell this to some of the company's that already had money taken out of their accounts...
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May 27, 2014, 07:07:21 PM
 #13

The evidence indicates that only 1-4% of humans are psychopathic or sociopathic.

Maybe so. But unregulated cryptocurrencies have a tendency to attract a lot of intelligent (maybe even sociopathic) criminals, precisely because they're unregulated and not very transparent to ordinary people, thus making theft on a massive scale possible -- and likely. This has proven to hold true time and time again in the Bitcoin sphere. And it will continue doing so, unless regulations are put in place. There are a disproportionately large number of intelligent criminals attracted to Bitcoin, since it gives them a ridiculously easy way to plunder fools.

The Average Joe will still stay far away from Bitcoin as long as the Bitcoin ecosystem is dominated by Mark Karpeles-like criminals who aren't even punished when they steal a billion dollars from innocent people. That's just the sad fact. And when other exchange owners sees how easy it was for Mark Karpeles to get away, they'll surely try pulling off similar heists. And they'll succeed. Unless some kind of regulations are put in place.

Talk all you want about not trusting third parties, and keeping every coin in paper wallets locked down in impenetrable kryptonite vaults. But how user-friendly is this? How can this lead to mainstream adoption? How can this be called "the currency of the internet"?
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May 27, 2014, 07:18:09 PM
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Maybe so. But unregulated cryptocurrencies have a tendency to attract a lot of intelligent (maybe even sociopathic) criminals, precisely because they're unregulated and not very transparent to ordinary people, thus making theft on a massive scale possible -- and likely.


Correct, but the distinction is that in the Bitcoin realm you have new con artitsts or independent sociopaths and in the traditional "regulated" banking environment you have well understood and institutionalized thieves and con artists.

Anarchists are simply pointing out the institutionalized theft and corruption and that the only difference between a regular thief and a confidence grifter is the latter may give you the illusion that the theft never occurred.



Talk all you want about not trusting third parties, and keeping every coin in paper wallets locked down in impenetrable kryptonite vaults. But how user-friendly is this? How can this lead to mainstream adoption? How can this be called "the currency of the internet"?

We do have a long way to go, but hardware wallets are slowly starting to trickle out to the marketplace and more hot wallets are using mutisig to remove these risks.

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May 27, 2014, 08:04:28 PM
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Interestingly, Bitstamp seems unwilling to let a third party do an audit of its fiat reserves (if there are any left). So far, Mike Hearn has supposedly seen "proof" that they still have around 180k BTC in reserves. (But there's no way of knowing whether this number corresponds to what customers actually have deposited in the exchange.) They didn't show him any fiat reserves though. I wonder why? Maybe because they used (a lot of) their customer's deposited fiat to buy up huge amounts of BTC shortly before Hearn's audit, to cover losses after an undisclosed theft?

This would help explain the price spike we've experienced recently.
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May 27, 2014, 08:37:00 PM
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Interestingly, Bitstamp seems unwilling to let a third party do an audit of its fiat reserves (if there are any left). So far, Mike Hearn has supposedly seen "proof" that they still have around 180k BTC in reserves. (But there's no way of knowing whether this number corresponds to what customers actually have deposited in the exchange.) They didn't show him any fiat reserves though. I wonder why? Maybe because they used (a lot of) their customer's deposited fiat to buy up huge amounts of BTC shortly before Hearn's audit, to cover losses after an undisclosed theft?

This would help explain the price spike we've experienced recently.

Valid concern.

No one should leave their fiat or Bitcoins in an exchange. Even if they have 100% Bitcoin and fiat solvency there could be a future hack or theft just around the corner.

Exchanges need to be treated at fiat onramps and offramps only and not hot wallets.

Day traders who are so arrogant to assume they can outsmart those with insider information(exchanges themselves) or can predict a black swan event will be punished eventually by these risks.

Store your bitcoins in a hardware wallet, paperwallet, or offline computer if you constantly get viruses and only move over the amount of bitcoins you can risk losing to a cellphone or hot wallet.

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May 27, 2014, 09:49:14 PM
 #17

If the US were to regulate, we run the risk of creating a separate ecosystem outside/apart from the rest of the world.  To the contrary, I don't do business with anyone outside the US at present.  I would like to, but their laws are different.  Trying to implement a regulatory scheme around a global concept will merely be divisive I'm afraid.  Might as well start calling the current cryptos by country name instead of brand.  At this phase, regulatory intervention will only weaken the honest and embolden foreign scammers.

As far as I can tell, the US exchanges are very diligent in appeasing US regulators.  The only problem I see is the varying laws for each state regarding money transmitters, and other financial regulation.  E.g., I can only link my bank account with one US exchange that I know of.
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May 27, 2014, 09:59:37 PM
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If the US were to regulate, we run the risk of creating a separate ecosystem outside/apart from the rest of the world.  To the contrary, I don't do business with anyone outside the US at present.  I would like to, but their laws are different.  Trying to implement a regulatory scheme around a global concept will merely be divisive I'm afraid.  Might as well start calling the current cryptos by country name instead of brand.  At this phase, regulatory intervention will only weaken the honest and embolden foreign scammers.

As far as I can tell, the US exchanges are very diligent in appeasing US regulators.  The only problem I see is the varying laws for each state regarding money transmitters, and other financial regulation.  E.g., I can only link my bank account with one US exchange that I know of.

That's why at the end of the day it's going to come down to the will of the people to adopt a currency in spite of government policy. Obviously no government wants to enable citizens to use something that will cause their currency to crash or be devalued at all.

We can spend all the time in the world trying to appease all these entities but for bitcoin to win the day people need to recognize that keeping government OUT of the system is the only truly reasonable scenario, and to put more faith in people in the network than the government who has yet to look out for anyone's interests but their own.


You say "anti government" like that's a bad thing...

Unfortunate times will bring out the best in good people and the worst in bad people
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