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February 05, 2012, 10:59:42 PM
 #41

In a country with NHS, nothing stops you from going to a private hospital with gourmet menus and personal physicians. Pay as much as you like.

Correct.  I had a small tumour a few years back and the NHS said "Tuesday 10am - that's when you will be done."  As it happened, I was busy so had it removed privately at a time that suited me.

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February 05, 2012, 11:06:02 PM
 #42

...snip...

Health insurance should not be a right. Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal. I bust my fucking ass to prepare and save because I am a responsible person. Last thing I need is someone stealing my ability to provide for my family at the point of a gun because they have failed to prepare. Every penny they steal off me lessens my ability to provide for my own responsibilities.

...snip...

We live in rich societies where the cost of universal health care is trivial.  The expensive part is selling insurance and advertising.  Every penny spent on them is taken from you when you are sick.  Its entirely legitimate for society to say it is a right and skip the adverts.  Why should poor people pay for marketing when all they really want is the medicine?

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February 05, 2012, 11:17:53 PM
 #43

<snip>
Yes. The US system, before the involvement of government in health care, accounting for technological differences between the times. The UK's own system back then would probably work too, but I know less about it.

Thought experiment: take the current UK system. Keep it basically the same. Slash everyone's taxes in proportion to how much goes toward national health care. Charge people for services up to that amount. Let people pay any extra they wish, or keep any unspent portion. Finally, take the money, manpower and time spent propping up the system from the political and bureaucratic angles (including the proper portion spent on tax enforcement) and refund all that as well. Of course, it's a given that charity should be encouraged, and allowed without restriction.

Do you not see any advantages to that adjustment in terms of health services per £, in the short-term also but especially in the long-term?


The problem is that medicine costs the same in the UK and the US.  It all comes from the same companies.  But delivery of medicine is far more expensive in the US because you have to pay for insurance advertising, drug advertising and because very often Americans are gouged by the system "Pay this stupid bill or you die screaming in pain."

If it helps, thats how it used to work here.  The NHS was introduced because WW2 destroyed the economy and there was not enough money for the marketing side of the health industry.  Given that it works, I can't see how you can make a case for transferring the delivery staff from the state payroll to a company payroll - all you have done is create an entity that will demand a return on capital and this raised your running costs.

The UK has private hospitals and charities - thats sort of a side issue.



That's kind of what I'm pointing out. You correctly assess that there will be a profit motive once health care is privatized, but you're not assessing the extra costs of having something public as opposed to private.

Perhaps an example might work better for me:

1) Tinytown has a tiny population. Health care costs are, let's say, "average." One day there's a town meeting, and the mayor brings Joe to the podium. Joe has no clue what's going on. The mayor suddenly announces that Joe, being poor, and struggling to pay each health care bill he incurs, is now going to be guaranteed health care by the town. He states that everyone, including Joe, will pay a small tax for the service, which will be available to all. A big grin crosses Joe's face. Now, considering the months and years after this, do you think there is any reason to suspect that the actual costs of Joe's health care might wind up being dramatically greater than average, even if the cost of each individual service remains average?

2) Do you think that the long-term cost of each individual health care service in Tinytown might be impacted by this announcement?

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February 05, 2012, 11:22:55 PM
 #44

We live in rich societies where the cost of universal health care is trivial.
It is not trivial, ergo the debate and my almost doubled health care insurance rates.

The expensive part is selling insurance and advertising.  Every penny spent on them is taken from you when you are sick.  Its entirely legitimate for society to say it is a right and skip the adverts.  Why should poor people pay for marketing when all they really want is the medicine?
No, the expensive part is the administrative costs. You have that in both public and private system. Due to the inefficiency of government, public systems would be more costly, especially so In the United States where the Internal Revenue Service is charged with Administration and Enforcement issues on top of the existing administration costs incurred by the insurers actually doing the insuring. Thats why my insurance rates have almost doubled since ObamaCare was signed into law, requiring all citizens to be insured under penalty of fines and imprisonment.

I am not an unkind nor unfeeling person. I think everyone should have access to health care, but they need to pay for it, which is why my work camp idea would work great. It simply isnt right to steal off people at the point of a gun and call it legal because some have been put down and disenfranchised to the point they are unable to care for themselves. I believe its all part of a plan to steal our state sovereignty, freedom, liberty, land, and wealth.

The system needs reset, but the utopian throw all your shit in a pile and share isnt the way to go about it.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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February 05, 2012, 11:31:40 PM
 #45


Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal.

Truer words never spoken.

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February 05, 2012, 11:35:43 PM
 #46


Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal.

Truer words never spoken.
Why stop there? Why not get rid of public police, fire departments, public roads, national defense, regulation of utilities, etc. Why should any of those be a right?

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February 05, 2012, 11:44:08 PM
 #47


Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal.

Truer words never spoken.
Why stop there? Why not get rid of public police, fire departments, public roads, national defense, regulation of utilities, etc. Why should any of those be a right?

Police already have no obligation to protect you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
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February 06, 2012, 12:02:34 AM
 #48


Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal.

Truer words never spoken.
Why stop there? Why not get rid of public police, fire departments, public roads, national defense, regulation of utilities, etc. Why should any of those be a right?

Police already have no obligation to protect you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
That was 1975. It was even before 911 (the phone number). Crimes like that were almost unheard of back then.

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February 06, 2012, 12:05:33 AM
 #49

What I love about the Politics forum (and, indeed, any politics subforum in general) is that people rage at things like this, but nobody ever proposes a politically feasible solution.

Opt out. If you truly don't believe in the system you are a part of, stop paying for it.

The Greeks opted out of paying for their government's corruption (lots of people stopped paying taxes, apparently). Now everyone is mad at them and seeking to control them in another way.
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February 06, 2012, 12:07:11 AM
 #50


Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal.

Truer words never spoken.
Why stop there? Why not get rid of public police, fire departments, public roads, national defense, regulation of utilities, etc. Why should any of those be a right?

Police already have no obligation to protect you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia
That was 1975. It was even before 911 (the phone number). Crimes like that were almost unheard of back then.

Whether it was 1975 or 2005, the ruling still stands.  Call for protection, it doesn't get delivered and you're harmed as a result, they are not liable.
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February 06, 2012, 12:09:57 AM
 #51


Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal.

Truer words never spoken.
Why stop there? Why not get rid of public police, fire departments, public roads, national defense, regulation of utilities, etc. Why should any of those be a right?
They need crime to justify the costs of the corrections, law enforcement, and judicial systems, which is why they do so little to stop crime. They react to crime and are thankful their efforts to increase it have worked so well. Its a never-ending cashflow turnstyle and each new ordinance and statute law makes more and more criminals out of a once law-abiding citizenry. You know, thats the difference between most low end criminals and law abiding citizens. The Law. You were once a rural farm, then the local municipality rezones your land unbeknownst to you. Your fields of wild grass are now considered a "lawn". Let your "lawn" grow more than 6 inches, you get a fine every day until its cut because all of a sudden your rural land thats now rezoned is called "in blight" or "blighted". Dont pay the fine, the cops show up, cuff you, and take you to prison until you see a judge and pay it, else you stay in prison "earning" $10 a day until its paid. Thats the jist of our justice system at work. Mostly is raping law abiding citizen for the Kings Taxes just like the King's Sheriff used to do.

The majoroty of fire departments here in America are 100% volunteer. They survive on the good intentions and donation from the community. They ahve festival, bake sales, events, and yard/garage sales to make money and buy equipment, and often local business "advertise" with them in their circulars for money. Only in the cities do you have paid and unionized fire departments using public tax funds. The vonunteer fire companies would also work for the cities, because responsible citizens realize the importance of the services they provide, just like in suburban and rural areas.

Public roads are 100% paid for by tolls, state taxes on gasoline, and the funds from users of state DMV's.

National Defense is an absolute must, but not the Armies of the American Empire we have today policing the world and acting as the strong arm of the political elite, international conglomerates, and banking interests which parallel the interest of the state. National Defense comes from corporate taxation. Its their economic interested they protect the most. Just ask George Herbert Walker Bush who used them to sieze land for the United Fruit Company's (think chaquita banana), a left wing company I might add, use in the 1980's and Iraq in the 1990's when they wanted to accept only gold for their oil reserves. It was an interesting buyout really as Zapata and Textron both bid on UFC for the CIA contracts, but Eli Black won out... but thats another story related to Bush and the CIA. The thing here is how the US MIlitary is often used with the costs put on the taxpayer through higher product prices as well-connected coporations rarely lose money and pass any cost increates, including taxation, on to the consumer. Anotehr is afghanistan, the oil pipeline to the caspian sea port, the caspian seaport itself, and of course the opium the Taliban had outlawed under penalty of death, that the US Military allowed to be restarted making Aghani opium to once again regain its above 90th percentile of world supply ranking. I could go on for hours alone on the US military and "national defense".

Most utilities are already deregulated, which was great preparation for the draconian enviromental laws increasing the costs on industries relying on fossil fuels, like coal, which powers the majority of the electricity generation in the United States, allowing them to raise the prices to make electric heat in the home prohibitavely expensive for most. This is fine if you have the money to pay it, but people who dont have the money to pay it, has to either pay out even more money up front to retro-fit or get new heating technology installed that uses a less expensive heating medium, like propane, natural gas, fuel oil or coal or wood stoves, the latter two which are least expensive but prohibited in some locations and the stoves generally run $800-$2500, where furnaces for the others can run $1500-$4500. Land line telephone, water, and sewage costs have all skyrocketed in response.


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"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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February 06, 2012, 12:21:12 AM
 #52

Health insurance should not be a right. Health care should not be a right. If people fail to prepare, it may sound harsh, but they need to pay for what they steal. I bust my fucking ass to prepare and save because I am a responsible person. Last thing I need is someone stealing my ability to provide for my family at the point of a gun because they have failed to prepare. Every penny they steal off me lessens my ability to provide for my own responsibilities.

The only way you're going to get that is at the point of a bigger gun (or pen, I suppose).

If you are going to steal my money through threat of prison and force, you should at least earn it. I know I earned the money you are stealing that pays for your benefits and privilages. I earned that money you are stealing by my labor ... my blood, sweat, and tears... my work ... and every penny you steal takes away from my ability to provide for my own family and responsibilities, but no one ever talks about that. People are losing their jobs, homes, and ability to survive to allow YOU to prosper and survive from doing absolutely nothing but getting your entitlements.

In Australia, welfare (as in pay you because you're able and don't have a job) accounts for 2% of the government budget. I think that's pretty insignificant. A lot more goes to disabilities, war vets, etc. My wife has worked trying to find people with disabilities jobs...no one wants to hire them. How are they going to save anything?

I'm a little confused by your post as to who you're really angry with...it seems a little at everyone for different reasons. It could even be that you're angry with capitalism/the society you live in...is that actually the case?

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February 06, 2012, 09:46:23 AM
 #53

We live in rich societies where the cost of universal health care is trivial.
It is not trivial, ergo the debate and my almost doubled health care insurance rates.

The expensive part is selling insurance and advertising.  Every penny spent on them is taken from you when you are sick.  Its entirely legitimate for society to say it is a right and skip the adverts.  Why should poor people pay for marketing when all they really want is the medicine?
No, the expensive part is the administrative costs. ...snip...

You are failing at logic here.  Marketing is administration.  Absent a taxpayer funded system, you need marketing and you need a return on investment for providers, so of course that is expensive.  The medicine itself is not the problem here - its the delivery system.

Here in the UK, you can visit as an American, get sick and get treated for free.  Why? Because its cheaper to treat you for free than to create a billing system for the few foreigners who get sick visiting here.  

Please stop posting for the sake of it and think what that means.  Your double health insurance rate is NOT an reflection of medical costs.  Its a reflection of the cost of marketing, of billing and of lobbying your politicians.  And while you say don't mind paying this extra money, its unreasonable to expect people who can't afford it to do without medicine because you say you prefer to pay extra.

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February 06, 2012, 09:42:13 PM
 #54

You are failing at logic here.  Marketing is administration.  Absent a taxpayer funded system, you need marketing and you need a return on investment for providers, so of course that is expensive.  The medicine itself is not the problem here - its the delivery system.

Here in the UK, you can visit as an American, get sick and get treated for free.  Why? Because its cheaper to treat you for free than to create a billing system for the few foreigners who get sick visiting here.  

Please stop posting for the sake of it and think what that means.  Your double health insurance rate is NOT an reflection of medical costs.  Its a reflection of the cost of marketing, of billing and of lobbying your politicians.  And while you say don't mind paying this extra money, its unreasonable to expect people who can't afford it to do without medicine because you say you prefer to pay extra.

Medical costs are rising as well. So are perscriptions. The problem is the bastardized legislation. It basically gives the gov the free reign to raise our taxes more, allows insurance companies to charge us more for the same coverage, raise medical and medicine prices .... everything goes up... and many more problems wth it. Your system is obviously much better in comparison to Obamacare. This in no way is an admission that I agree with universal health insurance/care at all. I dont. But if they are going to shove this bullshit down my throat, at least do it in a way that doesnt make me go broke and is somewhat fair to the taxpayer. There is no way to justify doubling my insurance rates, let alone making me pay for it in my taxes.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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February 06, 2012, 09:53:47 PM
 #55

You are failing at logic here.  Marketing is administration.  Absent a taxpayer funded system, you need marketing and you need a return on investment for providers, so of course that is expensive.  The medicine itself is not the problem here - its the delivery system.

Here in the UK, you can visit as an American, get sick and get treated for free.  Why? Because its cheaper to treat you for free than to create a billing system for the few foreigners who get sick visiting here.  

Please stop posting for the sake of it and think what that means.  Your double health insurance rate is NOT an reflection of medical costs.  Its a reflection of the cost of marketing, of billing and of lobbying your politicians.  And while you say don't mind paying this extra money, its unreasonable to expect people who can't afford it to do without medicine because you say you prefer to pay extra.

Medical costs are rising as well. So are perscriptions. The problem is the bastardized legislation. It basically gives the gov the free reign to raise our taxes more, allows insurance companies to charge us more for the same coverage, raise medical and medicine prices .... everything goes up... and many more problems wth it. Your system is obviously much better in comparison to Obamacare. This in no way is an admission that I agree with universal health insurance/care at all. I dont. But if they are going to shove this bullshit down my throat, at least do it in a way that doesnt make me go broke and is somewhat fair to the taxpayer. There is no way to justify doubling my insurance rates, let alone making me pay for it in my taxes.

Again I'm battling with your perception that because you are charged more, the costs must be rising.  You are charged more because you live in a market economy and companies charge what the market will bear.  The costs of medicine are not close to doubling per year - so many drugs are coming out of patent that the big pharma companies are making profit warnings.  The extra money you are paying is the cost of having a private market where people who are sick can be charged anything to avoid dying early and tehj companies have to spend billions on advertising if they want to stay in business.

Everyone gets sick.  We get much the same illnesses and it costs about the same to treat cancer in a pauper as it does in a billionaire.  We all pay taxes.  It makes sense to use the tax to spread the cost of illness over your lifetime and reduce the total you pay.  What I can't seem to communicate to you is that you are paying too much because the advertising does you not good at all...its very frustrating.

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February 06, 2012, 10:13:51 PM
 #56

You are failing at logic here.  Marketing is administration.  Absent a taxpayer funded system, you need marketing and you need a return on investment for providers, so of course that is expensive.  The medicine itself is not the problem here - its the delivery system.

Here in the UK, you can visit as an American, get sick and get treated for free.  Why? Because its cheaper to treat you for free than to create a billing system for the few foreigners who get sick visiting here.  

Please stop posting for the sake of it and think what that means.  Your double health insurance rate is NOT an reflection of medical costs.  Its a reflection of the cost of marketing, of billing and of lobbying your politicians.  And while you say don't mind paying this extra money, its unreasonable to expect people who can't afford it to do without medicine because you say you prefer to pay extra.

Medical costs are rising as well. So are perscriptions. The problem is the bastardized legislation. It basically gives the gov the free reign to raise our taxes more, allows insurance companies to charge us more for the same coverage, raise medical and medicine prices .... everything goes up... and many more problems wth it. Your system is obviously much better in comparison to Obamacare. This in no way is an admission that I agree with universal health insurance/care at all. I dont. But if they are going to shove this bullshit down my throat, at least do it in a way that doesnt make me go broke and is somewhat fair to the taxpayer. There is no way to justify doubling my insurance rates, let alone making me pay for it in my taxes.

Again I'm battling with your perception that because you are charged more, the costs must be rising.  You are charged more because you live in a market economy and companies charge what the market will bear.  The costs of medicine are not close to doubling per year - so many drugs are coming out of patent that the big pharma companies are making profit warnings.  The extra money you are paying is the cost of having a private market where people who are sick can be charged anything to avoid dying early and tehj companies have to spend billions on advertising if they want to stay in business.

Everyone gets sick.  We get much the same illnesses and it costs about the same to treat cancer in a pauper as it does in a billionaire.  We all pay taxes.  It makes sense to use the tax to spread the cost of illness over your lifetime and reduce the total you pay.  What I can't seem to communicate to you is that you are paying too much because the advertising does you not good at all...its very frustrating.

It's not increases from advertising. That irrelevent. Thats a comparison between YOUR SYSTEM and ours. Advertising does not explain away the comparison between pre and post Obamacare being penned into law in MY SYSTEM, which, ironically enough, is the only system I am talking about at present.

Thing is... its happening ... and NOT on the level of cost of living and inflation ... its WAY WAY WAY WAY above those minor increases that only happen over longer periods of time. Never this much of an increase this quickly.

"... He is no fool who parts with that which he cannot keep, when he is sure to be recompensed with that which he cannot lose ..."

"... history disseminated to the masses is written by those who win battles and wars and murder their heroes ..."


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February 06, 2012, 10:30:37 PM
 #57

You are failing at logic here.  Marketing is administration.  Absent a taxpayer funded system, you need marketing and you need a return on investment for providers, so of course that is expensive.  The medicine itself is not the problem here - its the delivery system.

Here in the UK, you can visit as an American, get sick and get treated for free.  Why? Because its cheaper to treat you for free than to create a billing system for the few foreigners who get sick visiting here.  

Please stop posting for the sake of it and think what that means.  Your double health insurance rate is NOT an reflection of medical costs.  Its a reflection of the cost of marketing, of billing and of lobbying your politicians.  And while you say don't mind paying this extra money, its unreasonable to expect people who can't afford it to do without medicine because you say you prefer to pay extra.

Medical costs are rising as well. So are perscriptions. The problem is the bastardized legislation. It basically gives the gov the free reign to raise our taxes more, allows insurance companies to charge us more for the same coverage, raise medical and medicine prices .... everything goes up... and many more problems wth it. Your system is obviously much better in comparison to Obamacare. This in no way is an admission that I agree with universal health insurance/care at all. I dont. But if they are going to shove this bullshit down my throat, at least do it in a way that doesnt make me go broke and is somewhat fair to the taxpayer. There is no way to justify doubling my insurance rates, let alone making me pay for it in my taxes.

Again I'm battling with your perception that because you are charged more, the costs must be rising.  You are charged more because you live in a market economy and companies charge what the market will bear.  The costs of medicine are not close to doubling per year - so many drugs are coming out of patent that the big pharma companies are making profit warnings.  The extra money you are paying is the cost of having a private market where people who are sick can be charged anything to avoid dying early and tehj companies have to spend billions on advertising if they want to stay in business.

Everyone gets sick.  We get much the same illnesses and it costs about the same to treat cancer in a pauper as it does in a billionaire.  We all pay taxes.  It makes sense to use the tax to spread the cost of illness over your lifetime and reduce the total you pay.  What I can't seem to communicate to you is that you are paying too much because the advertising does you not good at all...its very frustrating.

It's not increases from advertising. That irrelevent. Thats a comparison between YOUR SYSTEM and ours. Advertising does not explain away the comparison between pre and post Obamacare being penned into law in MY SYSTEM, which, ironically enough, is the only system I am talking about at present.

Thing is... its happening ... and NOT on the level of cost of living and inflation ... its WAY WAY WAY WAY above those minor increases that only happen over longer periods of time. Never this much of an increase this quickly.


My understanding is that Obamacare was brought in because the existing system was not affordable and it was supported by insurance companies because they feared going out of business.  On the face of it, that stinks but I'll leave your American compatriots argue for or against Obamacare.  To an outsider, the appalling thing is that you are paying nearly twice what we pay for care and getting a lower standard of service. 

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February 09, 2012, 09:06:50 AM
 #58

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyf97LAjjcY

The amount of statists that participate in bitcoin is frightening.  Anyway, all I can say is that I am glad I live in Texas.  We have some nice laws that keep "pain and suffering" litigation to a reasonable amount.  We also have a "loser pays" law to cut down on frivolous lawsuits.  This cuts down the costs of health care and also makes the patient to doctor ratio in Texas one of the lowest in the country.

To become a doctor in America, a person must go to 4 years of university, 4 years of medical school, and then do many years of residency training.  For 8 years of their life they racked up debt.  The poorest and smartest ones may have been able to get scholarships or grants in their university, but in medical school everyone is smart so no chance of substantial scholarships.  Medical school is very expensive.  There are 9 medical schools in Texas.  Some states in America have only 1 or none.  My  brother-in-law has tuition at a medical school in Texas at $10,000 per year.  That is a steal.  In some states it can cost up to $80,000 a year.

After medical school the new doctor gets to work 80+ hours a week for less than minimum wage.  They also likely have over $100,000 in student loan debt that they have to start paying back 6 months after they start their new job.  They can postpone payment but their interest is capitalized and at 6.5% that loan can grow really fast.

It is no wonder why medical fees are expensive.  A doctor has been educated for 8 years, has a residency program from 3 to 10 years, and in the mean time they get paid terribly and have a lot of debt.  Then when they get a job their taxes will be in the 40% range.  They have to pay for malpractice insurance that is a substantial cost.  Doctors have to keep high insurance for everything else.  For example, if they get in a car accident and the other driver's insurance company/lawyer sees Dr. in front of the name, then that is a plus sign for a lawsuit.

For prescription drugs and other advances of health care, increasing medical costs is a good thing.  Everyone always wants the best care, and having the best doctors and the best technology costs a lot of money.  It is not until we make great technological breakthroughs that the cost of medicine will go down.  Now, antibiotics are almost free but in the past they were extremely expensive.  The same thing will happen that are now very expensive treatments.

Say a pharmaceutical company figures out how to manipulate telomerase so a person can live forever.  How much do you think someone is willing to pay for that?  There are 4 main thing that drive an economy: Agriculture, Energy, Homes, and Health.  Everything else is just entertainment or helps us increase our efficiency in the agriculture, energy, home, or health industries.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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February 09, 2012, 10:38:52 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eyf97LAjjcY

The amount of statists that participate in bitcoin is frightening.  Anyway, all I can say is that I am glad I live in Texas.  We have some nice laws that keep "pain and suffering" litigation to a reasonable amount.  We also have a "loser pays" law to cut down on frivolous lawsuits.  This cuts down the costs of health care and also makes the patient to doctor ratio in Texas one of the lowest in the country.

To become a doctor in America, a person must go to 4 years of university, 4 years of medical school, and then do many years of residency training.  For 8 years of their life they racked up debt.  The poorest and smartest ones may have been able to get scholarships or grants in their university, but in medical school everyone is smart so no chance of substantial scholarships.  Medical school is very expensive.  There are 9 medical schools in Texas.  Some states in America have only 1 or none.  My  brother-in-law has tuition at a medical school in Texas at $10,000 per year.  That is a steal.  In some states it can cost up to $80,000 a year.

After medical school the new doctor gets to work 80+ hours a week for less than minimum wage.  They also likely have over $100,000 in student loan debt that they have to start paying back 6 months after they start their new job.  They can postpone payment but their interest is capitalized and at 6.5% that loan can grow really fast.

It is no wonder why medical fees are expensive.  A doctor has been educated for 8 years, has a residency program from 3 to 10 years, and in the mean time they get paid terribly and have a lot of debt.  Then when they get a job their taxes will be in the 40% range.  They have to pay for malpractice insurance that is a substantial cost.  Doctors have to keep high insurance for everything else.  For example, if they get in a car accident and the other driver's insurance company/lawyer sees Dr. in front of the name, then that is a plus sign for a lawsuit.

For prescription drugs and other advances of health care, increasing medical costs is a good thing.  Everyone always wants the best care, and having the best doctors and the best technology costs a lot of money.  It is not until we make great technological breakthroughs that the cost of medicine will go down.  Now, antibiotics are almost free but in the past they were extremely expensive.  The same thing will happen that are now very expensive treatments.

Say a pharmaceutical company figures out how to manipulate telomerase so a person can live forever.  How much do you think someone is willing to pay for that?  There are 4 main thing that drive an economy: Agriculture, Energy, Homes, and Health.  Everything else is just entertainment or helps us increase our efficiency in the agriculture, energy, home, or health industries.

We are not statist out of some love of the word state; we are statist when its the most efficient option.  Texas may be relatively cheap compared to other states but you are still paying too much for healthcare.  Its your country so its your own choice to pay that extra money but that doesn't mean everyone who prefers to spend their money wisely is some kind of "statist"

On the doctors with debt issue, the funny thing is that guys go to med schools in Africa in India that are very cheap, they then get visas to work in the EU and arrived in places like England and get paid £109,000 per year from day 1.  Yet in our rich countries, med school costs a fortune.  Obviously a lot of money is being wasted or else we are risking life and limb giving these guys from developing world med schools the same jobs as people from European schools.

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February 09, 2012, 11:49:37 AM
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On the doctors with debt issue, the funny thing is that guys go to med schools in Africa in India that are very cheap, they then get visas to work in the EU and arrived in places like England and get paid £109,000 per year from day 1.  Yet in our rich countries, med school costs a fortune.  Obviously a lot of money is being wasted or else we are risking life and limb giving these guys from developing world med schools the same jobs as people from European schools.

Hmm... seems these foreign medical students found a way to take advantage of a system that other countries have in place. Is it a problem? If so, is the fix to prohibit these people from obtaining productive employment in your country? Or is it the system itself that needs fixed?

We welcome them - you can't have too many doctors.  My puzzlement is that it costs so much less to educate a doctor in Sri Lanka for example yet his qualification is the same as one from Harvard Medical School.

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