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Author Topic: wordwide government to regulate /tax BITCOIN ?  (Read 2596 times)
zimmah
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June 01, 2014, 12:44:25 AM
 #21

It's insanely hard to tax a currency you can't seize.

They can trace the transactions and possibly find out which address belongs to whom, but actually forcing them to pay up will be next to impossible.

Of course they can threaten with jail, but they'd have to prove they know which owner the wallet belongs to, and to prove it they have to admit they have been spying on us on a large scale and that may trigger revolts.

Also, if taxes are too high and the government refuses to do things for society (like they are doing now already, increase taxes all around and cutting spending all around at the same time) they might not be able to find enough co-operation to even finance the police and/or the army anymore. And then they will have nothing on us anymore.

Those are very interesting points you have made on multiple levels.  

However I think you are underestimating.  None of us possess bitcoins or any other crypto currency unlike cash or gold can hold in your hand.  We do not own anything, we simply have keys that let us use bitcoins, everything is in the blockchain.  

We already know NSA has been spying on everyone for years.  They know who I am through my IP address.

So imagine this scenario:  Bitcoin becomes centralized, which it clearly can be and pretty easily, ie > 51%, something catastrophic happens, state steps up and says we need to take control of this monster or offers alternative and takes over blockchain for "the good of the people."   Now can impose forfeiture and will all be voluntary.  Rescue me.

Paragraph above pure speculation.  

However, I do think ultimate intent is to take control of blockchain.  How this will be done I do not know and can only speculate.  

This i am convinced of, states want to move society to blockchain.  Surrender all assets to the blockchain.  This will enable consumption tax, asset tracking etc.  Logical step before hand would be taking full control of blockchain which will give society (the masses) total confidence in blockchain aka the state.

I think this is massive social engineering to get people to voluntarily abandon debt based fiat currency and give states more power and control.  

Carrot and stick.  Bitcoin and blockchain will enable X but also enable states to do Y.

I also think this is a long term project...


To do a 51% they'd need to buy up a LOT of miners, possibly from different manufacturers. As i doubt any manufacturer has enough capacity to create enough miners to d a 51% attack. Even if they do, they'd be pretty stupid if they'd sell all their miners to a single person or entity.

Also yes we know the NSA is spying on us, but people tend to be pretty passive when "it does not directly harm" them personally. But when their money is involved, it will be another thing entirely. Also, can't you hide your IP behind TOR and keep hiding your addresses by using a new address each time and possibly even mixing coins when you make transactions? And where possible buy coins with cash, or thngs like paysafecards or itunes cards or other forms of hard to trace 'money'. That would make it pretty damn hard to trace who is holding the coins.

Of course they could make their own chip manifacturer, but i doubt that would be pretty far-fetched, wouldnt it?
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August 30, 2014, 05:40:52 PM
 #22

BITCOIN doesn't care about states .its wordwide currency used everywhere. To regulate it and tax it u need wordwide government right ?
As bitcoin is not centrally organized and particular government could regulate the way they like it to.
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August 30, 2014, 06:31:02 PM
 #23

Not really. Each government will have their own ways of dealing and regulating it. Most will just tax it when you exchange it for fiat cash and/or buy things with it and take their cut that way.

then if i want to evade some form of regulation i just change country, really stupid
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August 30, 2014, 07:50:37 PM
 #24

One way to tax bitcoin will be to require ISPs to track Internet access and bitcoin transactions. But many people will always find a way to access their wallets anonymously.

But you can rest assure that states will find a way to tax the major part of its residents for bitcoin transactions if they start to see their financial situation in danger because of tax evasion, if bitcoin goes mainstream.

But it won't be easy and massive adoption will make it even harder.
I don't think this would work. It is not hard to mask what sites/services that you are connecting to from your ISP. You could use TOR, and/or a VPN to achieve this for virtually nothing. Also once the government were to know about a BTC transaction they would have little way to force you to pay taxes on it because it is not possible for someone to sign a TX without access to the private keys.
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August 30, 2014, 09:49:14 PM
 #25

It's a lossing game if they want to regulate Bitcoin and apply taxes to items bought directly with BTC. They will literally go nuts trying to keep up with the pace. It is an objective waste of resources. Bitcoin will remain tax free for life, thats a fact.

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August 30, 2014, 11:07:15 PM
 #26

BITCOIN doesn't care about states .its wordwide currency used everywhere. To regulate it and tax it u need wordwide government right ?

No. The government only need to stop all the banks from servicing bitcoin related business and ban international wire from certain bank to regulate bitcoin.

Some people over-estimate bitcoin and think it can survive traditional banking. It can't.
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August 30, 2014, 11:18:06 PM
 #27

In before talk of the New World Order... However for some reason I cannot picture George Bush Sr, or people of his generation, using Bitcoin.
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August 31, 2014, 04:25:20 AM
 #28

It's a lossing game if they want to regulate Bitcoin and apply taxes to items bought directly with BTC. They will literally go nuts trying to keep up with the pace. It is an objective waste of resources. Bitcoin will remain tax free for life, thats a fact.
I would disagree. Bitcoin will likely be treated the same way that fiat is treated when it comes to taxes. If someone needs to pay sales tax on something when they pay with fiat, they will need to pay the same sales tax when they pay in bitcoin. If a retailer were to not collect this sales tax then they would be risking more then it is worth to risk.
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August 31, 2014, 02:30:26 PM
 #29

It's a lossing game if they want to regulate Bitcoin and apply taxes to items bought directly with BTC. They will literally go nuts trying to keep up with the pace. It is an objective waste of resources. Bitcoin will remain tax free for life, thats a fact.
I would disagree. Bitcoin will likely be treated the same way that fiat is treated when it comes to taxes. If someone needs to pay sales tax on something when they pay with fiat, they will need to pay the same sales tax when they pay in bitcoin. If a retailer were to not collect this sales tax then they would be risking more then it is worth to risk.

I agree. Indirect taxes like sales tax / value added tax will be collected.
Direct taxes like income tax (miners) and capital gains tax (investors) will be a little harder to collect.


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August 31, 2014, 05:03:33 PM
 #30

It's a lossing game if they want to regulate Bitcoin and apply taxes to items bought directly with BTC. They will literally go nuts trying to keep up with the pace. It is an objective waste of resources. Bitcoin will remain tax free for life, thats a fact.
I would disagree. Bitcoin will likely be treated the same way that fiat is treated when it comes to taxes. If someone needs to pay sales tax on something when they pay with fiat, they will need to pay the same sales tax when they pay in bitcoin. If a retailer were to not collect this sales tax then they would be risking more then it is worth to risk.

I agree. Indirect taxes like sales tax / value added tax will be collected.
Direct taxes like income tax (miners) and capital gains tax (investors) will be a little harder to collect.

Problem is most miners are losing big time and have negative profit. For trader, only the really good one make money while majority of them lose big time.
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August 31, 2014, 08:04:10 PM
 #31

That would be real pain in ass for a government to perform such a task.I mean whom you are gonna tax when you don't know until the person himself asks to be taxed
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September 01, 2014, 04:29:25 PM
 #32

That would be real pain in ass for a government to perform such a task.I mean whom you are gonna tax when you don't know until the person himself asks to be taxed

They will most probably set up information systems at all the exchanges... So that some of the money trail can be traced.


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September 04, 2014, 06:53:12 AM
 #33

It's a lossing game if they want to regulate Bitcoin and apply taxes to items bought directly with BTC. They will literally go nuts trying to keep up with the pace. It is an objective waste of resources. Bitcoin will remain tax free for life, thats a fact.
I would disagree. Bitcoin will likely be treated the same way that fiat is treated when it comes to taxes. If someone needs to pay sales tax on something when they pay with fiat, they will need to pay the same sales tax when they pay in bitcoin. If a retailer were to not collect this sales tax then they would be risking more then it is worth to risk.

I agree. Indirect taxes like sales tax / value added tax will be collected.
Direct taxes like income tax (miners) and capital gains tax (investors) will be a little harder to collect.

Problem is most miners are losing big time and have negative profit. For trader, only the really good one make money while majority of them lose big time.
If a miner were to lose money on their equipment then they could take a tax deduction. I don't see how this is a problem. This is no different then any other investment.

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September 05, 2014, 11:11:39 AM
 #34

They will try to tax it. They try to steal money from everywhere. But in this case it'll be quite difficult for them. They have to try to convince people that using bitcoins isn't ethical, that it's related with terrorism, and bullshit like that.
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September 05, 2014, 05:54:28 PM
 #35

They will try to tax it. They try to steal money from everywhere. But in this case it'll be quite difficult for them. They have to try to convince people that using bitcoins isn't ethical, that it's related with terrorism, and bullshit like that.

They will try and tax people wherever bitcoin enters the 'real' economy.
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September 05, 2014, 06:04:23 PM
 #36

They will try to tax it. They try to steal money from everywhere. But in this case it'll be quite difficult for them. They have to try to convince people that using bitcoins isn't ethical, that it's related with terrorism, and bullshit like that.

It isn't exactly hard to tax bitcoin transaction once people start using it.

A simple audit or send an auditor over to where the business operate will do.
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September 06, 2014, 07:59:17 AM
 #37

They will try to tax it. They try to steal money from everywhere. But in this case it'll be quite difficult for them. They have to try to convince people that using bitcoins isn't ethical, that it's related with terrorism, and bullshit like that.

It isn't exactly hard to tax bitcoin transaction once people start using it.

A simple audit or send an auditor over to where the business operate will do.

Simple? If you buy and sell with bitcoins and there aren't any invoice, it isn't that easy to find the transactions, unless you know the addresses being used.
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September 06, 2014, 09:39:26 PM
 #38

They will try to tax it. They try to steal money from everywhere. But in this case it'll be quite difficult for them. They have to try to convince people that using bitcoins isn't ethical, that it's related with terrorism, and bullshit like that.

It isn't exactly hard to tax bitcoin transaction once people start using it.

A simple audit or send an auditor over to where the business operate will do.

Simple? If you buy and sell with bitcoins and there aren't any invoice, it isn't that easy to find the transactions, unless you know the addresses being used.
Most larger businesses will keep an audit-able set of books to be able to detect and prevent employee theft and fraud (as well as for internal control purposes). The government could easily look at these books and make sure the proper amount of taxes are being paid.

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September 06, 2014, 10:26:32 PM
 #39

LOL: This doesn't make sense. Worldwide regulation would need insane amounts of effort and collaboration, is just unrealistic.

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September 07, 2014, 05:46:24 AM
 #40

LOL: This doesn't make sense. Worldwide regulation would need insane amounts of effort and collaboration, is just unrealistic.
[/quote

You could have just a few of the large countries getting together and doing it. That would capture a majority of the tax revenues.


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