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Author Topic: Building Credibility  (Read 1677 times)
Kohta
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February 10, 2012, 02:46:51 AM
 #1

TL;DR provided by payb.tc

i see lots of scams
heatware is good. http://heatware.com/eval.php?id=76821
postcount don't mean nuttin'
short-term / high interest sucks
privacy = good
i'd like to get a loan some day
discuss

Looking around here i think the "Borrowing/Loan's" of BTC is a pretty neat idea, but after reading several threads i started to notice a trend of people not showing up again or disappearing, only for another to show up and do the same, this hurts the honest people, like me for example, most of you might think immediately somebody like me would be out to take your BTC's. What would make you come to that conclusion? Let's go through the loops.

I figure a good solid idea for BTC trading would be something along the lines of what Heatware does, this is just one idea, here is an example of my heatware: http://heatware.com/eval.php?id=76821

Just from that little bit of information you might not can tell if i were an honest person or not, but it's a start.

So how else can we build credibility? i think 2000 posts and 20 posts shouldn't make any difference, post count can't particularly mean anything when you can just open a new account, besides that, i read more than i talk, occasionally i have something to say but chances are it's already been answered. A better explanation of that would be: i have been a member of the Overclockers forums for about 2 years and i only have 400 posts, Tera Online forums as well, before they took down the forums i had about 245 posts and i joined on 2009, on average i viewed the website forums atleast twice a week, so i don't think post count would be entirely fair for an individual like me.

I don't think short term/high interest get's much business, rather it scares people away, more-so the type of person who would actually pay you back. Right now i'm mining almost 2BTC a day, almost, not quite, i'd love to invest in another mining rig while keeping it "Future proof" for adding more GPU's, buying from the egg i would estimate that would put me roughly in the $700 range getting another couple of 6870's another test bench, power supply/motherboard, pretty much everything i need to push out ~620MH/s, that's roughly alittle less than 130 BTC at the current exchange, let's break that down a bit, i make ~2BTC/Day, let's not include the new rig because that would just be a bonus or make up for internet outage/power outage/failed GPU anything that could happen. That would put me just over 2 months paying it back, there is really no way i would ask for that amount of BTC when in a few months time that amount could lower and the loaner would really loose, not just that but i actually am in such hard times that i am using BTC to pay all of my electricity, so in my position i would have to find a way to arrange the payments so i make enough to cover energy usage.

This is why banks draw out loans over so much time, it takes average people, a year or so to pay back a loan, that's an average i pulled out of my butt because it's taken me maybe 2-3 years to pay off something while still being able to pay my priorities. This is where interest makes money, it has to be small enough that you don't really "feel" anything coming back (profit) for quite awhile, because the lendee needs to feel the same way. So in perspective if i borrowed 130 BTC, i mine aprox. 60 BTC in 30 days, i use 40 of them for my expenses, i would have to agree upon a ~20 BTC payment every 1st of the month to realistically pay it back and if there is extra i would apply it just to speed things up, i don't much like being in the position of owing back. This is more for the lenders to think about than anything, getting smaller payments might "Keep the honest man, honest" so to speak, Disclaimer: no relation to me.

That's a large loan in my opinion so lets back it down to 10 BTC, that is a little easier to swallow as a loss, but you still don't want to lose anything, this is where i think collateral should apply, it's universal actually, it could apply more-so to the larger loan, many banks won't give people with bad or no credit a credit card, it's difficult to get started and i think it's as well should be with proof all over these forums, when it comes to fraud somebody looses, and it's typically the bank/lender.

I don't know about you guys but i like my privacy, handing out my SSN for a credit check or my name and address feels just as shady as me not wanting to give it out. So there must be other methods, companies around the world have thought on this same prospect to help sort out the dishonest what can we learn from their practices?

Another thing, when BTCs went from $20 to ~$1 i had to shutdown, i wasn't around for atleast 4 months, iv'e seen that looked at as a deciding factor for giving loans to people.

I mainly wrote this because at some point or another i wouldn't mind saying "Hey so-and-so, you got a couple hundred BTC i can use?" and not be scanned like a criminal. I will probably never hit 200+ posts anytime soon, my credibility by most means may never stand out, because i am one of the possibly few people who doesn't have much to say to often, i don't really have anything to sell or trade, and i wouldn't make a loan if i knew i couldn't pay it back, a person like me would never be able to establish credibility by the time everyone's guard is up so high, it can't be reached, atleast not by me.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts, please feel free to post your thoughts, i'm interested in what you think.

  


  

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slider1978
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February 10, 2012, 03:15:50 AM
 #2

You have valid points and I think we all need to remember that we're basically in the wild west right now with the Bitcoin economy. Things will get better and new ways to handle loans and lending will become the norm....but until then it's six shooters on main street.  Grin
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February 10, 2012, 03:31:26 AM
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You have valid points and I think we all need to remember that we're basically in the wild west right now with the Bitcoin economy. Things will get better and new ways to handle loans and lending will become the norm....but until then it's six shooters on main street.  Grin

That is a very good analogy!

TL;DR

i see lots of scams
heatware is good. http://heatware.com/eval.php?id=76821
postcount don't mean nuttin'
short-term / high interest sucks
privacy = good
i'd like to get a loan some day
discuss



Sorry OP but if you ever ask for a loan, you're not going to avoid being 'judged' and seen as a potential criminal, that's just the reality of the situation. you shouldn't feel bad about people doing their due dillegence... just go with it and over time maybe they'll ask less and less.


Thanks for supplying the TL;DR, i will add a notion in the OP directing to yours if you don't mind.

And that's true Payb, i typically see in one or two directions, that's why i like to have discussions like this, your post makes a good point.

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February 10, 2012, 03:33:24 AM
 #4

Please send me your cat as collateral for a lower interest rate - it might cost you $1000, and there will be six month quarantine.

or accept zero collateral implies higher risk and interest rates
Kohta
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February 10, 2012, 03:48:49 AM
 #5

Here is a thought:

Paypal Verified:
From my understanding you have to have a legitimate bank account linked to your billing address, which is 9 times out of 10, your actual address. To varify this with paypal you have to actually make transactions with them and if you change anything about your account you instantly loose your verification. You can go to "Profile-> Add or Edit Street Address" and take a screen shot submitting it to the lender which will display your address as "verified" on the right hand side which has to be linked to a bank or they received a code via physical mail. For extra measure i would communicate with them using the Email from their paypal account.

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February 10, 2012, 03:51:00 AM
 #6

Ummm, otc???

Paypal Verified:

Milk coming out of my nose.
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February 10, 2012, 03:57:06 AM
 #7

Quote from: Kohta
there is really no way i would ask for that amount of BTC when in a few months time that amount could lower and the loaner would really loose,

If the loan is denominated in BTC the BTCUSD rate is irrelevant, both parties accept currency fluctuation risks up front.

Quote
not just that but i actually am in such hard times that i am using BTC to pay all of my electricity, so in my position i would have to find a way to arrange the payments so i make enough to cover energy usage.

You may want to look at selling mining contracts instead. That way you get paid in USD up front and can cover your power cost, hardware investment, and pay out the BTC to the buyer for an agreed-on amount of time.  Then you keep the hardware when it's done.
Kohta
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February 10, 2012, 03:59:57 AM
 #8

Ummm, otc???

Something like OTC and Heatware are great but i also stated it doesn't help somebody who doesn't have a lot to trade, sell or buy.

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Kohta
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February 10, 2012, 04:04:00 AM
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You may want to look at selling mining contracts instead. That way you get paid in USD up front and can cover your power cost, hardware investment, and pay out the BTC to the buyer for an agreed-on amount of time.  Then you keep the hardware when it's done.


I vaguely considered that, but i figured my hashing power wasn't good enough, ~2700MH/s, not to mention i'm real slow if i have to use or maintain a miner other than GUIMiner.

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slider1978
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February 10, 2012, 05:06:27 AM
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You may want to look at selling mining contracts instead. That way you get paid in USD up front and can cover your power cost, hardware investment, and pay out the BTC to the buyer for an agreed-on amount of time.  Then you keep the hardware when it's done.


I vaguely considered that, but i figured my hashing power wasn't good enough, ~2700MH/s, not to mention i'm real slow if i have to use or maintain a miner other than GUIMiner.

Try gpumax.com   you can buy hashing power and direct it at the pool of your choice. Currently they only accept BTC as payment but it is possible (based on the current poll) that other forms of payment might be accepted in the future. It would be an easy way of "buying" BTC by basically paying miners to hash for you.
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February 10, 2012, 03:19:22 PM
 #11

You can go to "Profile-> Add or Edit Street Address" and take a screen shot submitting it to the lender which will display your address as "verified" on the right hand side

Because screenshots aren't ever photoshopped.

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February 10, 2012, 03:31:40 PM
 #12

Appreciate your suggestions Kohta. You are correct in identifying this a a problem in the bitcoin economy. The tricky part is that those in the economy tend to understand that all security systems are just fallible, exploitable, ignorable ideas for and by rule followers.
One could rely on paypal verification or whatever, but to me it's just 1's and 0's with no meaning or value. I know how to create a fake identity and use it to get credit, and I'm not that smart.
I just see no way around doing your own due diligence.

The gospel according to Satoshi - https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

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Kohta
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February 10, 2012, 04:58:22 PM
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Well hey, i own a Armalite AR50 50 cal. if anybody needs some repayment (joke)

It really is a shame, i was hoping there was a way to prove credibility, for everyone's sake. What i might just have to do is build credibility by borrowing a small amount that i know i can pay back with interest from somebody just to build otc rating, i'm not ready to do that just yet though, i really only have ~2BTC to juggle around as of this posting.

EDIT: I'm trying to figure out how to 'register' on bitcoin-otc, unless you just get added via feedback/some sort of overseer?

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February 10, 2012, 05:49:40 PM
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I like the idea of Heatware but as one of the first posts stated Bitcoin in general is a premature system in terms of reliability regarding user verification and consistency in some sort of fashion, but this is also it's strength.

All you can really do is put yourself out there and reward those certain members who help you out by paying them back honestly. Over time if enough people can vouch for you it shouldn't be an issue. Some people will never trust you, that just the way it is. Building trust is about effort not simply happening, a poor excuse is that you don't spend enough time here, that in itself is a factor of trust for some. Put in the effort and get some successful transactions going is my advice.

I hate bition-IRC as well. Heatware is a much better idea and more user friendly.
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February 12, 2012, 12:36:48 AM
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Please send me your cat as collateral for a lower interest rate - it might cost you $1000, and there will be six month quarantine.

or accept zero collateral implies higher risk and interest rates

I plan to charge a small deposit combined with higher interest rate for people with less rep.More trusted people I will waive the need for a deposit and charge less interest.Does my idea sound like it'll handle people with low rep/scammers? Or is it just stupid?

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February 12, 2012, 12:50:47 AM
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Please send me your cat as collateral for a lower interest rate - it might cost you $1000, and there will be six month quarantine.

or accept zero collateral implies higher risk and interest rates

I plan to charge a small deposit combined with higher interest rate for people with less rep.More trusted people I will waive the need for a deposit and charge less interest.Does my idea sound like it'll handle people with low rep/scammers? Or is it just stupid?

Do you mean in the way banks give out "Starter" credit cards? where you basically put $200 on it and can always have access to that $200 like a pretend card lol, they do exist, i believe i had one from bank of America a long time ago, you miss a payment and they will charge the fool out fo you for using your own money, it was something crazy like 25%.

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February 12, 2012, 01:00:49 AM
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Please send me your cat as collateral for a lower interest rate - it might cost you $1000, and there will be six month quarantine.

or accept zero collateral implies higher risk and interest rates

I plan to charge a small deposit combined with higher interest rate for people with less rep.More trusted people I will waive the need for a deposit and charge less interest.Does my idea sound like it'll handle people with low rep/scammers? Or is it just stupid?

Do you mean in the way banks give out "Starter" credit cards? where you basically put $200 on it and can always have access to that $200 like a pretend card lol, they do exist, i believe i had one from bank of America a long time ago, you miss a payment and they will charge the fool out fo you for using your own money, it was something crazy like 25%.

I'm not thinking in that way as I don't see these starter credit cards in UK (so I'm not familiar with that system). What I mean is simply tack on a desposit reqirement for low rep borrowers and higher interest rates. If a high rep borrower asks for money,I waive deposit need but still charge a lower rate of interest instead.It's just that simple.I believe in good,honest,simple money. No complex things like programming or derivative based money systems (bitcoin is coding based and conventional money system is based on derivatives which I'm not happy with.I prefer the simple honest trade like either bartering or another simple currency like precious metals,gold,silver,e.t.c. Money based on ideology is also a no-no for me as I just like to trade and be done with it.)

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February 12, 2012, 08:15:39 PM
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If they have the coins for a deposit, they don't need a loan.  If they did, and you loaned to them, the net position is that you're still out of pocket.  (Banks have this great system where they lend to people who don't need it, or have security worth more than the loan.  Here we are quite the opposite.)
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February 12, 2012, 10:37:40 PM
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I read the "deposit" might be in fiat.  Right?

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February 12, 2012, 10:39:01 PM
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I read the "deposit" might be in fiat.  Right?
Maybe but I prefer BTC as it's instant for me.No paperwork (unlike with fiat based system)

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