Back to $680. So obvious this is a pump.

[jonald_fyookball]

This is market manipulation for sure - it pisses me off only becuase I haven't got $250k worth of coins to 'play' about with and join in the quick buck gains...

how are you defining "market manipulation"?  

How do you know its not a large seller taking profits from
a trade that started weeks ago in the $400s?

How do you know its many traders taking profits because
price has entered overbought territory?

How do you know its not miners unloading coins?

[nottm28]

This is market manipulation for sure - it pisses me off only becuase I haven't got $250k worth of coins to 'play' about with and join in the quick buck gains...

how are you defining "market manipulation"?  

How do you know its not a large seller taking profits from
a trade that started weeks ago in the $400s?

How do you know its many traders taking profits because
price has entered overbought territory?

How do you know its not miners unloading coins?

Market manipulation is a deliberate attempt to interfere with the free and fair operation of the market and create artificial, false or misleading appearances with respect to the price of, or market for, a security, commodity or currency. Market manipulation is prohibited in most countries, in particular, it is prohibited in the United States under Section 9(a)(2)[1] of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, in Australia under Section 1041A of the Corporations Act 2001, and in Israel under Section 54(a) of the securities act of 1968. The Act defines market manipulation as transactions which create an artificial price or maintain an artificial price for a tradeable security.

Wikipedia definition - Are you saying this isn't happening?

It's not against the law when it comes to BTC as this market is unregulated...

[jonald_fyookball]

Yes, I'm saying that isn't happening, because there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

[DooMAD]

Not sure if it's purely a pump, as it's a little volatile for that.  Went from $645 down to $620 then back up to $635.

[nottm28]

Yes, I'm saying that isn't happening, because there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

Ok have it your way - I see your new here...

[jonald_fyookball]

Yes, I'm saying that isn't happening, because there is no evidence to suggest that it is.

Ok have it your way - I see your new here...

I've made more posts than you here.  Not that it matters either way.

What evidence do you have that market manipulation is occurring?

[franky1]

$450? Based on what? Your feelings?

I think what you are trying to establish is a firm foundation value. Without future cash flows to discount or a balance sheet you can't really have a firm foundation value. This is a speculative investment, everything is based on supply and demand. BTC is a castle in the air, and we all hope for a greater fool to buy in later and make the price go higher. Plenty of great investments were speculative castles in the air, like MSFT back in the 80s. All this is outlined in Random Walk Down Wall Street, and basically my point here is that nobody has a freaking clue where BTC is headed. It's very likely there is manipulation happening, but that exists in all markets where money is trading hands.

the bases of him saying $450 is true value is based on the fact that the majority of people were refusing to sell any less then that range. meaning they did not see any profit or desire to sell lower. this is the same as anything else the base price that something does not go below for a long period becomes the price that the majority agree's to be the low/true value, where everything else above it is speculation, until another long term settling point is reached.

[nottm28]

I've made more posts than you here.

Well, some people talk a lot...

[jonald_fyookball]

where does fair whale play end and "market manipulation" begin anyway?
Who can really say.

This not like Gox style manipulation where they could change the price
to whatever they wanted since no one could get their money out.

[haploid23]

it pisses me off only becuase I haven't got $250k worth of coins to 'play' about with

So you're mad because you don't have enough money? I'm raging right now because I'm not a billionaire. I'm also pretty pissed off because I didn't win the lottery 3 times in a row.

[nottm28]

where does fair whale play end and "market manipulation" begin anyway?
Who can really say.

This not like Gox style manipulation where they could change the price
to whatever they wanted since no one could get their money out.

If you have say 500 BTC, you could write some code to make use of the bitstamp api (for example) to automatically price yourself to buy a tad higher than 'the majority' of 'bids' and to sell a tad lower than the majority of 'asks'. It's by no means an exact science and you need a hefty amount of coins to 'manipulate' the market this way. This has definitely been happening yesterday and today. I was watching the bots in action with countless transactions selling 1.899989898 BTC then a few minutes later buying back the same amount of BTC for a slight gain.

Scale this up and you have a hefty hand to manipulate the market with. Once you have gained too many coins because your algorithm is not quite right, you dump. Or if you sold too many coins because the algorithm is not quite right, you buy. Then you tweak your algorithm and start again.

[nottm28]

it pisses me off only becuase I haven't got $250k worth of coins to 'play' about with

So you're mad because you don't have enough money? I'm raging right now because I'm not a billionaire. I'm also pretty pissed off because I didn't win the lottery 3 times in a row.

er babsically, yeah

[smoothie]

Wouldn't surprise me if OP got shaken out during this next bull rally over the course of these next two months.

[jonald_fyookball]

where does fair whale play end and "market manipulation" begin anyway?
Who can really say.

This not like Gox style manipulation where they could change the price
to whatever they wanted since no one could get their money out.

If you have say 500 BTC, you could write some code to make use of the bitstamp api (for example) to automatically price yourself to buy a tad higher than 'the majority' of 'bids' and to sell a tad lower than the majority of 'asks'. It's by no means an exact science and you need a hefty amount of coins to 'manipulate' the market this way. This has definitely been happening yesterday and today. I was watching the bots in action with countless transactions selling 1.899989898 BTC then a few minutes later buying back the same amount of BTC for a slight gain.

Scale this up and you have a hefty hand to manipulate the market with. Once you have gained too many coins because you're algorithm is not quite right, you dump. Or if you sold too many coins because the algorithm is not quite right, you buy. Then you tweak your algorithm and start again.

That's simply algorithmic trading and there's nothing dishonest about it.     As Bitcoin grows, expect more of it just like algorithmic trading has become the norm in the forex market.

[MatTheCat]

It just dropped to $618 and you're still telling me im wrong?

I want to know who the assholes are that are screwing with the price and making bitcoin so volatile, making it lose the respect of the masses for their own financial gain.

-B-

I agree. Been watching the action on the way up and it stinks of shit. Looks to me like someone swishing Bitcoins around in order to engineer BUY signal after BUY signal, and then this crash which coincided with the swaps on Bitfinex (main USD leverage exchange) hitting extortionate rates and a bit of selling pressure.

Probably, Bitcoin has always been like this. So there are two ways of looking at this. There is the 'Fuck them guys' point of view and there is also the point of view that perhaps we are now getting our textbook engineered correction to set us up for Wave (iii) of Wave (III), which as any textbook will tell you, is thee ultimate time to enter market? A textbook correction from a $420-$680 rise which would bring around the conditions for the onset of a wave (iii) of a Wave (III), would be mid to upper $500's. Might take a while to get their but now the sharks at Bitfinex have turned the market psychology on it's head, perhaps there is a good chance that we will get their.

[jonald_fyookball]

It just dropped to $618 and you're still telling me im wrong?

I want to know who the assholes are that are screwing with the price and making bitcoin so volatile, making it lose the respect of the masses for their own financial gain.

-B-

I agree. Been watching the action on the way up and it stinks of shit. Looks to me like someone swishing Bitcoins around in order to engineer BUY signal after BUY signal, and then this crash which coincided with the swaps on Bitfinex (main USD leverage exchange) hitting extortionate rates and a bit of selling pressure.

Probably, Bitcoin has always been like this. So there are two ways of looking at this. There is the 'Fuck them guys' point of view and there is also the point of view that perhaps we are now getting our textbook engineered correction to set us up for Wave (iii) of Wave (III), which as any textbook will tell you, is thee ultimate time to enter market? A textbook correction from a $420-$680 rise which would bring around the conditions for the onset of a wave (iii) of a Wave (III), would be mid to upper $500's. Might take a while to get their but now the sharks at Bitfinex have turned the market psychology on it's head, perhaps there is a good chance that we will get their.

EW is needlessly complicated way to look at market.  

And since few people are looking at those waves
(and since they can be interpreted differently),
people aren't engineering the market that way.

If whales are in fact trying to move the market
(I wouldn't even call that market manipulation), they are using
a much simpler strategy of just trying to create
momentum in favor of their trades.

[nottm28]

where does fair whale play end and "market manipulation" begin anyway?
Who can really say.

This not like Gox style manipulation where they could change the price
to whatever they wanted since no one could get their money out.

If you have say 500 BTC, you could write some code to make use of the bitstamp api (for example) to automatically price yourself to buy a tad higher than 'the majority' of 'bids' and to sell a tad lower than the majority of 'asks'. It's by no means an exact science and you need a hefty amount of coins to 'manipulate' the market this way. This has definitely been happening yesterday and today. I was watching the bots in action with countless transactions selling 1.899989898 BTC then a few minutes later buying back the same amount of BTC for a slight gain.

Scale this up and you have a hefty hand to manipulate the market with. Once you have gained too many coins because you're algorithm is not quite right, you dump. Or if you sold too many coins because the algorithm is not quite right, you buy. Then you tweak your algorithm and start again.

That's simply algorithmic trading and there's nothing dishonest about it.     As Bitcoin grows, expect more of it just like algorithmic trading has become the norm in the forex market.

There's also nothing dishonest about digging every last bit of coal out of the ground, sucking up every last drop of oil, or tearing down every tree on the planet for a profit. Doesn't make it right though... But hey sod the future of everything as long as I can increase my $2million to $3million...

[Carra23]

Disclaimer:  Playing devils advocate here.  And I hope im dead wrong.  

We're back to the peak of the last spike.   Right before the convenient fake bad news came out, and the price conveniently crashed.  All on FUD.

What bad news is going to come out this coming week to make the price crash again?  

------

Genuine adoption and commerce don't make the price go up $250 in a week and a half.  That's got to be a pump.  Agree or disagree?

I used to argue with people who claimed BTC price was being manipulated.  

Then I learned through experience that BOTS, Fake news stories, and whales may be playing around a bit.

We can safely say Bitcoins actual value right now is about $450.   Is the rest just large holders making profits?

I wonder what announcement will go live next week to justify a crash, and make it look like "investor confidence was lost".  

Again - here's to me being very wrong!  

-B-

I do not think it is a conspiracy as such. BTC price will keep bobbing up and down for a few months now.

[knightcoin]

Bitcoin got more radical roller coaster though 

[MatTheCat]

And since few people are looking at those waves
(and since they can be interpreted differently),
people aren't engineering the market that way.

If whales are in fact trying to move the market
(I wouldn't even call that market manipulation), they are using
a much simpler strategy of just trying to create
momentum in favor of their trades.

Perhaps. But if you were sitting on sidelines earlier today with a fair chunk of capital and bullish on Bitcoin. Would you be looking to invest long term at $650, after a 35% rise in less than a week without any meaningful correction, or would you be waiting on 'the correction' to occur before entering market. Corrections are important psychologically for bull markets whether the majority of players are looking at Elliott Waves or not.

Question is, is a 30 minute flash crash sufficient and was $618 the bottom of 'the correction', or does their need to be more correcting/consolidating before sidelines capital feels comfortable to enter the market?