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Author Topic: Re: Bitcoin-QT client question  (Read 3304 times)
jl2012
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June 04, 2014, 07:25:04 AM
 #21

This has probably been discussed before but I want to raise it again...

can bitcoins be destroyed

You can burn fiat currency...so can you destroy a bitcoin? Is it possible? How would you go about it? How would it effect the economy and how would someone find about it if it occurred?

Discuss Smiley

There is ONLY one way to truly destroy bitcoin.

Other methods, e.g. losing private key, sending to 1BitcoinEaterAddressDontSendf59kuE, sending to OP_RETURN, just make the coins unspendable. The record of the bitcoin is still on the blockchain.

To truly destroy bitcoin, a miner has to deliberately underpay himself. This happend in block 124724 ( http://blockexplorer.com/block/0000000000004c78956f8643262f3622acf22486b120421f893c0553702ba7b5 )

With this, 0.01000001 bitcoin was destroyed

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apxu
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June 04, 2014, 07:32:16 AM
 #22

Quote
Out of curiosity, is there any web service which keeps tabs on how many coins are proved to be destroyed? Compared to the number of "de facto" unspendable coins, it must be insignificant, but it's still something to look at.

The most destroyed ever coins were here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50232.0
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June 04, 2014, 08:00:31 AM
 #23

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Out of curiosity, is there any web service which keeps tabs on how many coins are proved to be destroyed? Compared to the number of "de facto" unspendable coins, it must be insignificant, but it's still something to look at.

The most destroyed ever coins were here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=50232.0


I bet the guy that lost those 2,500BTC must be kicking himself now...
So much lost from what it seems a mistake?

Very interesting though

Edit on that post, realised it was Mt Gox. :') what a coincidence.
Gosh.... what a bizarre court case it'd be if Gox accidentally destroyed all the coins instead of "losing" them, recently.

"We're declaring bankruptcy after accidentally setting fire to $1,600,000." "How did this happen?" "Wrong opcode. Our giant USD warehouse thought I wanted it to set fire to itself."
Harley997
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June 11, 2014, 03:25:16 AM
 #24

This has probably been discussed before but I want to raise it again...

can bitcoins be destroyed

You can burn fiat currency...so can you destroy a bitcoin? Is it possible? How would you go about it? How would it effect the economy and how would someone find about it if it occurred?

Discuss Smiley

If you were to send a TX with an invalid output then the BTC will be destroyed assuming the TX gets confirmed. Eligius is the only pool that I know about that would possibly confirm nonstandard TXs.

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June 11, 2014, 03:55:21 AM
Last edit: June 11, 2014, 04:45:21 AM by DeathAndTaxes
 #25

Also note that transactions can be created that don't pay to an address, but rather pay to a script.  In particular, you can use OP_RETURN to create an output that can never be spent.  This script OP code is used specifically to mark an output as "invalid".  As such, it can immediately be removed from the UTXO, and can be considered "destroyed".

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
Quote
Provably Unspendable/Prunable Outputs
The standard way to mark a transaction as provably unspendable is with a scriptPubKey of the following form:

Code:
scriptPubKey: OP_RETURN {zero or more ops}

OP_RETURN immediately marks the script as invalid, guaranteeing that no scriptSig exists that could possibly spend that output. Thus the output can be immediately pruned from the UTXO set even if it has not been spent.

I have recently learned that any output with OP_RETURN is excluded from the fee/balance calculations and thus the value of any OP_RETURN output is simply transferred to the miners as a fee.

Example:
https://blockchain.info/tx/139c004f477101c468767983536caaeef568613fab9c2ed9237521f5ff530afd

So this is not one way to destroy bitcoins although there are plenty of others as you pointed out.


On edit:  This is incorrect.  The value assigned to the OP_RETURN output remains unspendable.
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June 11, 2014, 04:26:50 AM
 #26

a key is called a key for a reason. the key itself is not the actual bitcoin, but it's what gives you access to the it.
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June 11, 2014, 04:32:20 AM
 #27

This has probably been discussed before but I want to raise it again...

can bitcoins be destroyed

You can burn fiat currency...so can you destroy a bitcoin? Is it possible? How would you go about it? How would it effect the economy and how would someone find about it if it occurred?

Discuss Smiley

Send them to Mark, he will destroy them once and for good.

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PRIMEDICE
The Premier Bitcoin Gambling Experience @PrimeDice
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jl2012
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June 11, 2014, 04:36:48 AM
 #28

Also note that transactions can be created that don't pay to an address, but rather pay to a script.  In particular, you can use OP_RETURN to create an output that can never be spent.  This script OP code is used specifically to mark an output as "invalid".  As such, it can immediately be removed from the UTXO, and can be considered "destroyed".

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Script
Quote
Provably Unspendable/Prunable Outputs
The standard way to mark a transaction as provably unspendable is with a scriptPubKey of the following form:

Code:
scriptPubKey: OP_RETURN {zero or more ops}

OP_RETURN immediately marks the script as invalid, guaranteeing that no scriptSig exists that could possibly spend that output. Thus the output can be immediately pruned from the UTXO set even if it has not been spent.

I have recently learned that any output with OP_RETURN is excluded from the fee/balance calculations and thus the value of any OP_RETURN output is simply transferred to the miners as a fee.

Example:
https://blockchain.info/tx/139c004f477101c468767983536caaeef568613fab9c2ed9237521f5ff530afd

So this is not one way to destroy bitcoins although there are plenty of others as you pointed out.

Any problem with your calculator Huh Huh Huh

1 (1FC....) = 0.998 (1FC...) + 0.001 (destroyed) + 0.001 (fee)

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jl2012
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June 11, 2014, 04:37:31 AM
 #29

I have recently learned that any output with OP_RETURN is excluded from the fee/balance calculations and thus the value of any OP_RETURN output is simply transferred to the miners as a fee.

Interesting.

Thanks for the update.

I'll make sure I keep that in mind when talking about OP_RETURN in the future.

So, it is possible to create an unspendable script, and thereby lock bitcoins up as permanently unspendable, but OP_RETURN is not the way to do it.

No, that's not true.

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June 11, 2014, 04:39:11 AM
 #30

Quote

Any problem with your calculator Huh Huh Huh

1 (1FC....) = 0.998 (1FC...) + 0.001 (destroyed) + 0.001 (fee)

Oops looks like I was misinformed ... and failed basic math.
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June 11, 2014, 09:46:36 AM
 #31

If you lose your unique private-keys and no one else has a copy, your bitcoins are as good as gone...

It's like saying that if you put 100$ on a remote planet where is almost impossible to go the 100$ are destroyed
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June 11, 2014, 10:00:07 AM
 #32

Delete your private key and it will be all gone  Wink

or give it to me  Grin
CryptoCurrencyInc.com
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June 11, 2014, 10:09:29 AM
 #33

Bitcoin is just an idea. It can't be destroy.

If Bitcoin is destroyed for some strange reasons, another cryptocurrency will emerge and take its place.

                                                                               
                 
                                                       ╓▄▌██P                   
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                                           ▄▄▌██▀▀╚  ╓██╩██                     
                                     ▄▄███▀▀╙      ▄██  ▓█                     
                               ▄▌███▀▀+          ▄█▀   ▐█                       
                        ,▄▌███▀▀¬              ▓█▀     █▄                       
                  ,▄▌███▀▀                  ,██▀      █▌                       
               '█████▌▄▄,                 ╓██╩       ██                         
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                     ▀██▄        ╚▀▀▀████          ▐█═                         
                        ▀██▄        ▓█▀██          █▀                           
                           ▀██▄  ,██▀   █µ        ██                           
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                                ▐██     ▐█      ▄█                             
                              ,,╓╓█▓▄▌   █▌    ▐█U                             
                        º▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓███   ▀█    █▌                               
                          ▀█▓▓▓▓▓████▀█▌  █▌  ██                               
                            ▀███████▌  ▀█µ▀█ ██                                 
                              ▀█████     ███▓█                                 
                                ▐███      ▀██Ñ                                 
                                            ▀                             

jl2012
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June 11, 2014, 10:27:16 AM
 #34

Bitcoin is just an idea. It can't be destroy.

If Bitcoin is destroyed for some strange reasons, another cryptocurrency will emerge and take its place.

Are you trolling? We are talking bitcoin the currency, not Bitcoin the protocol

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June 11, 2014, 10:52:04 AM
 #35

Just send all your bitcoins to an address that hasn't been created yet and boom they are technically impossible to recover.
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June 11, 2014, 10:58:00 AM
 #36

This has probably been discussed before but I want to raise it again...

can bitcoins be destroyed

You can burn fiat currency...so can you destroy a bitcoin? Is it possible? How would you go about it? How would it effect the economy and how would someone find about it if it occurred?

Discuss Smiley

I think you've already got an answer so I'll just join the throng not listening to your question and say:

Wasn't there a guy a year or two back saying he hated bitcoin so much, that he mined a ton at his place of work, just so he could through away the key.
To which everyone said "Do a flip!"

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June 11, 2014, 11:02:18 AM
 #37

This has probably been discussed before but I want to raise it again...

can bitcoins be destroyed

You can burn fiat currency...so can you destroy a bitcoin? Is it possible? How would you go about it? How would it effect the economy and how would someone find about it if it occurred?

Discuss Smiley

Don't know if anybody else mentioned it already, but if you transfer them to 1CounterpartyXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXUWLpVr, they are lost forever.
This address already has 2000+ BTC in it which is lost forever.

1FdwDuV2qgsw2w1Lza8nsea7L6mQxsc7g3
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June 11, 2014, 11:18:19 AM
 #38

This has probably been discussed before but I want to raise it again...

can bitcoins be destroyed

You can burn fiat currency...so can you destroy a bitcoin? Is it possible? How would you go about it? How would it effect the economy and how would someone find about it if it occurred?

Discuss Smiley

bitcoins do not exist so they cannot be destroyed.

the blockchain which exists on every computer that runs bitcoin software, is called that because its is a chain of blocks each made up of a group of transactions...
transactions have both inputs and outputs.. by subtracting the outputs from the inputs we can determine how many "coins" each address holds but as I understand it there are no actual values or properties stored in the blockchain that represent the coins themselves. The concept of coins (just like mining) is just a way of simplifying more complex abstract ideas so that they are easier for everyday people to understand.

since there are no actual coins.. they cannot be destroyed.

of course the block-chain could be destroyed if every computer running it was compromised somehow but that would be practically impossible... hence why the idea of peer to peer decentralized crypto currency is so fascinating for everyone who uses it.


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ljudotina
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June 11, 2014, 02:10:00 PM
 #39

If you lose your unique private-keys and no one else has a copy, your bitcoins are as good as gone...

BUT they still exist
The coins are still counted in the economy and still can be located on the blockchain via the address, right?

They "exist" but they can never ever be used, so they are out of the economy. You know, there is ALOT of gold in Universe, but it's not part of economy as we can not touch it. Existing != inside economy

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June 11, 2014, 02:42:04 PM
 #40

Yes. And chance of that happening is 0

Reference:


I just absolutely love this graphics.

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