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Author Topic: MTGOX new privacy policy???  (Read 4646 times)
BrightAnarchist
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February 15, 2012, 11:44:12 PM
 #1

Does this actually change anything? Will they require this for all users, or does this just mean that they may require it?

----

Our Terms of Service and Privacy Policy will go into effect February 22, 2012.

Gathering and Use of Personal Information
 
We may collect your Personal Information if you use the Site, open an Account to use the Platform or perform any Transactions on the Platform. The types of Personal Information which we collect may include:
 •your name;
•your photographic identification;
•your address;
•your phone number;
•your e-mail address;
•your banking details including account numbers;
•your date of birth; and
•your trades.

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deepceleron
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February 16, 2012, 12:15:39 AM
 #2

You have to protect your identity, and YOU are liable for MtGox's losses:

Members are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of their Account information, including their password, and for all activity including Transactions that occur under their Account. Members agree to notify Mt. Gox immediately of any unauthorized use of their Account or password, or any other breach of security by email addressed to security@mtgox.com. Members will be held liable for losses incurred by Mt. Gox or any other user of the Site due to someone else using their password or user account.


Mt Gox doesn't have to protect your identity, and they aren't liable when they don't:

Mt Gox will transfer Members' Personal Information to Mt. Gox K.K. as well as the third party service providers entrusted by Mt. Gox with the hosting of the Platform and other technical operations relating to the operation of the Platform. These parties may be located anywhere in the world. By accepting this Privacy Policy, you consent to such transfer of your Personal Information out of Japan. Unfortunately, the transmission of information via the internet is not completely secure and whilst we will do our best to protect your Personal Information, we cannot guarantee the security of your data transmitted to our site when it is outside of our control.
...
To the extent permitted by law, Mt. Gox will not be held liable for any damages, loss of profit, loss of revenue, loss of business, loss of opportunity, loss of data, indirect or consequential loss unless the loss suffered is caused by a breach of these Terms by Mt. Gox.


"You may request it, that doesn't mean we do anything about your request.":

You may also request the deletion or destruction of both the Account and Personal Information by sending an email to us at: support@mtgox.com. Mt. Gox will action your request only where this is not inconsistent with its legal and regulatory obligations.

...they are hoping you read that and not this?:

In accordance with our record keeping obligations we will retain Accounts and Personal Information for, at least a period of five years after they are closed by Members.

("...and the user can't specify or change any terms ever."):

Mt. Gox reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, add or remove portions of these Terms, at any time.



They just say this about when they will demand ID, which is just a continuation of the existing policy of holding funds ransom with no notice until they get what they want (or even after they get what they want...):

Transactions may be frozen until the identity check has been considered satisfactory by Mt. Gox as required by applicable money laundering laws. Mt. Gox may request additional identification information at any time at the request of any competent authority or by application of any applicable law or regulation.

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February 16, 2012, 12:25:08 AM
 #3

You have to protect your identity, and YOU are liable for MtGox's losses:

Members are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of their Account information, including their password, and for all activity including Transactions that occur under their Account. Members agree to notify Mt. Gox immediately of any unauthorized use of their Account or password, or any other breach of security by email addressed to security@mtgox.com. Members will be held liable for losses incurred by Mt. Gox or any other user of the Site due to someone else using their password or user account.


Mt Gox doesn't have to protect your identity, and they aren't liable when they don't:

Mt Gox will transfer Members' Personal Information to Mt. Gox K.K. as well as the third party service providers entrusted by Mt. Gox with the hosting of the Platform and other technical operations relating to the operation of the Platform. These parties may be located anywhere in the world. By accepting this Privacy Policy, you consent to such transfer of your Personal Information out of Japan. Unfortunately, the transmission of information via the internet is not completely secure and whilst we will do our best to protect your Personal Information, we cannot guarantee the security of your data transmitted to our site when it is outside of our control.
...
To the extent permitted by law, Mt. Gox will not be held liable for any damages, loss of profit, loss of revenue, loss of business, loss of opportunity, loss of data, indirect or consequential loss unless the loss suffered is caused by a breach of these Terms by Mt. Gox.


"You may request it, that doesn't mean we do anything about your request.":

You may also request the deletion or destruction of both the Account and Personal Information by sending an email to us at: support@mtgox.com. Mt. Gox will action your request only where this is not inconsistent with its legal and regulatory obligations.

...they are hoping you read that and not this?:

In accordance with our record keeping obligations we will retain Accounts and Personal Information for, at least a period of five years after they are closed by Members.

("...and the user can't specify or change any terms ever."):

Mt. Gox reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, add or remove portions of these Terms, at any time.



They just say this about when they will demand ID, which is just a continuation of the existing policy of holding funds ransom with no notice until they get what they want:

Transactions may be frozen until the identity check has been considered satisfactory by Mt. Gox as required by applicable money laundering laws. Mt. Gox may request additional identification information at any time at the request of any competent authority or by application of any applicable law or regulation.

These terms are insane. What the hell?!

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February 16, 2012, 12:31:02 AM
 #4

So, if I don't accept the terms, it's not exactly clear how to close the account.  Should I email "support"?

I'll give away the $0.001 I have there.
BrightAnarchist
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February 16, 2012, 12:32:37 AM
 #5

This could all just be "lawyer speak", i.e. they have to give themselves rights to the moon and back, just so they don't have to worry later on should they require them.

Basically, this assumption would mean business as usual, but they're just buying a little extra insurance
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February 16, 2012, 12:37:34 AM
 #6

There's nothing stopping anyone here from transacting anonymously on a one to one basis.  If you're not happy with goxes policies don't use them.  Afaic, whatever they're doing to stay in business is fine with me as I have nothing to hide.
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February 16, 2012, 12:46:04 AM
 #7

There's nothing stopping anyone here from transacting anonymously on a one to one basis.  If you're not happy with goxes policies don't use them.  Afaic, whatever they're doing to stay in business is fine with me as I have nothing to hide.

I have nothing to hide either, but accepting terms which state they can be careless with information about me? No thanks...

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February 16, 2012, 12:55:08 AM
 #8

You have to protect your identity, and YOU are liable for MtGox's losses:

Members are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of their Account information, including their password, and for all activity including Transactions that occur under their Account. Members agree to notify Mt. Gox immediately of any unauthorized use of their Account or password, or any other breach of security by email addressed to security@mtgox.com. Members will be held liable for losses incurred by Mt. Gox or any other user of the Site due to someone else using their password or user account.


Mt Gox doesn't have to protect your identity, and they aren't liable when they don't:

Mt Gox will transfer Members' Personal Information to Mt. Gox K.K. as well as the third party service providers entrusted by Mt. Gox with the hosting of the Platform and other technical operations relating to the operation of the Platform. These parties may be located anywhere in the world. By accepting this Privacy Policy, you consent to such transfer of your Personal Information out of Japan. Unfortunately, the transmission of information via the internet is not completely secure and whilst we will do our best to protect your Personal Information, we cannot guarantee the security of your data transmitted to our site when it is outside of our control.
...
To the extent permitted by law, Mt. Gox will not be held liable for any damages, loss of profit, loss of revenue, loss of business, loss of opportunity, loss of data, indirect or consequential loss unless the loss suffered is caused by a breach of these Terms by Mt. Gox.


"You may request it, that doesn't mean we do anything about your request.":

You may also request the deletion or destruction of both the Account and Personal Information by sending an email to us at: support@mtgox.com. Mt. Gox will action your request only where this is not inconsistent with its legal and regulatory obligations.

...they are hoping you read that and not this?:

In accordance with our record keeping obligations we will retain Accounts and Personal Information for, at least a period of five years after they are closed by Members.

("...and the user can't specify or change any terms ever."):

Mt. Gox reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to change, add or remove portions of these Terms, at any time.



They just say this about when they will demand ID, which is just a continuation of the existing policy of holding funds ransom with no notice until they get what they want:

Transactions may be frozen until the identity check has been considered satisfactory by Mt. Gox as required by applicable money laundering laws. Mt. Gox may request additional identification information at any time at the request of any competent authority or by application of any applicable law or regulation.

These terms are insane. What the hell?!

Have you ever read the terms for anything online?  MOST of them are like this.  I am not saying it is good, but it certainly is not abnormal.  Due to gox being in Japan (unless you also are in Japan) you have very little recourse anyhow.  This does not change much!

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February 16, 2012, 01:00:10 AM
 #9

There's nothing stopping anyone here from transacting anonymously on a one to one basis.

How do you do this? Two figures in trenchcoats meet in a darkened car park, and kick an envelope of money across the floor?

Consider they had no policy before, they could do whatever they wanted, but so could you. This (anti) privacy policy, however, details what their motivations and aspirations for using your personal data might be, which are much longer than my first post.

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February 16, 2012, 01:02:50 AM
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Have you ever read the terms for anything online?  MOST of them are like this.  I am not saying it is good, but it certainly is not abnormal.  Due to gox being in Japan (unless you also are in Japan) you have very little recourse anyhow.  This does not change much!

Yep, this is standard practice.  I don't see anything in the terms particularly out of the ordinary.  

That they retain your account info for 5 years after a delete request seems kind of crazy, but this is what you have to do as a financial institution to prevent people from laundering money through your service then deleting all records of it.
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February 16, 2012, 01:49:40 AM
 #11

Mtgox is not anonymous, nor is this a bad thing.  Troll harder.

I must say, I could not agree more with you.

Look, we want a functioning legal exchange? This is the price we have to pay considering the current legal regulations and compliance

Sure, we are actively working to get these regulations changed, but don't forget even though MtGox is registered and based in Japan they also work within the confides of the US law in order to do business with us. They have a US Legal Entity in Delaware and are actively working to become the only legal us exchange in all 43 states they are legally required to (as to my knowledge)

Yes, it seems like this new privacy policy is so far reaching, and like a big brother but we have to remember. This is whats dictated to them by the regulators.

Fortunately, most of you are not burdened with the amount of daily legal regulations and compliance us Bitcoin business owners have to deal with. Even having the word 'Bitcoin' in your business name, title or description heads a closed-door from many organizations.

If we want market freedom, and a release from the binds of the government, we're going to have to be compliant to get there.

As Mahatma Gandhi said it so well

An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind.

/Charlie



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kjlimo
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February 16, 2012, 02:48:57 AM
 #12

There's nothing stopping anyone here from transacting anonymously on a one to one basis.

How do you do this? Two figures in trenchcoats meet in a darkened car park, and kick an envelope of money across the floor?

Consider they had no policy before, they could do whatever they wanted, but so could you. This (anti) privacy policy, however, details what their motivations and aspirations for using your personal data might be, which are much longer than my first post.

I think they were trying to say that bitcoins can be transfered from one account to another anonymously using the bitcoin client...

Also, US regulations are requiring capital gains to be reported on a tax form now to individuals.  This information gathering may be helping them comply with US regulations...

If they don't comply, the US govt may start to apply pressure to shut things down.

Exchanges are a large point of failure with a large target on their back.

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February 16, 2012, 03:07:48 AM
 #13

In case you haven't read outside sources of news about this situation, this is the true story.  You won't hear this from any of them so listen up.  There's something in America called the Banking Secrecy Act.  It requires anyone who "transfers money" in significant amounts to record user information.  It's to keep rich, unspeakably greedy assholes from hiding their money from taxes because...you know, they just can't live without that extra $100k so they have to hide it offshore.

Anyway, MTGox is Japanese but if you want to do business in America, you have to follow the BSA rules.  Nobody has forced them to follow the rules because it's a lot harder but that's exactly what happened to the California-based Tradehill.  The US gov investigated silently then told their main bank to lock their account pending an investigation of their BSA compliance.

So if the US tells a Japanese bank that, they'll ignore it without threats or political pressure.  But to make it appear in the meantime that they're complying, they did that.  Or the US sent them directly some kind of "scary" message and they're scrambling to not cause problems.

Either way, I'm finding a new exchange.
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February 16, 2012, 03:19:20 AM
 #14

Dear Mt.Gox users,

We are glad that many of you have taken the time to review our new Terms of Service, which will be coming into effect shortly. We anticipated that there would be some concern within the community regarding both our Terms of Service and our Privacy Policy, but want to reinforce with you that these documents are a long overdue piece of legal protection, both for Mt.Gox and its users. The Terms of Service define not only what is expected of the users of Mt.Gox, but what you can expect of us, offering our customers a more transparent and stable service.

We wanted to address some specific concerns which have arisen within this thread.

I. Mt Gox doesn't have to protect your identity, and they aren't liable when they don't.

Japan has some of the most stringent personal privacy protection laws of any jurisdiction in the world, and Mt.Gox must adhere to these laws. Whilst we would like to encourage our users to read our new privacy policy in full, to address just the quoted text:

"we cannot guarantee the security of your data transmitted to our site when it is outside of our control."

The pertinent point in this case is the section of text which has not been bolded - "when it is outside of our control." What this means is that we will take all possible steps to ensure the security of your personal information whilst it is within Mt.Gox's information infrastructure. Unfortunately, we are unable to guarantee that your personal information is secure when we have no control over it.

For example, many customers recently have been submitting their personal information to us by email. (Note: We strongly discourage this practice as it is the least secure form of transmission.) Emails will generally be sent from a particular public mail server, be routed throughout the internet, and eventually arrive at Mt.Gox. This clause says that we are only able to guarantee the security of that email when it is on the Mt.Gox mail server, not when you are drafting it on your gmail account, or whilst it routes through parts of the internet we have no control over.

II. You may request it, that doesn't mean we do anything about your request.

Unfortunately, we are compelled by Japanese and American banking laws to retain our customers' data for at least five years as part of anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist financing regulations. Most (if not all) banking institutions will have similar clauses in their Terms of Service, but we do sincerely apologize to our customers that we are unable to avoid enforcing this rule.

This is also the reason that were are obliged to include this clause: "Transactions may be frozen until the identity check has been considered satisfactory by Mt. Gox as required by applicable money laundering laws. Mt. Gox may request additional identification information at any time at the request of any competent authority or by application of any applicable law or regulation."

As we are sure you are aware, a number of Bitcoin Exchanges recently have been forced to close down because of regulatory and legal issues they have encountered. Mt.Gox has instituted these Terms of Service as one step towards our goal of becoming a fully licensed, regulated business, which will not only guarantee the safety of our customers' funds, but will, we believe, be an important step forwards for Bitcoin as a whole.

III. To address one last point, "You have to protect your identity, and YOU are liable for MtGox's losses." The below is an extract of the Terms and Conditions which users who bank with the Bank of America must agree to. We hope you'll agree that our terms are, by comparison, fair and straightforward.

"Bank of America shall assign to each Authorized Person a unique User ID (“User ID”) and a corresponding password and/or other access codes (each, an “Access Code”) to enable Authorized Persons to access and use such functions within the Sites as Client shall authorize. Client shall (i) maintain, (ii) take appropriate steps to ensure that its officers and employees maintain, and (iii) inform all Authorized Persons of Client’s obligation to maintain, the confidentiality of User IDs and Access Codes and the security of the Sites. Client shall not permit any person other than an Authorized Person to access or use the Sites on its behalf or to use any User ID or Access Code and shall educate and familiarize those Authorized Persons who access and/or use the Sites with Client’s obligations under this Agreement. Client acknowledges and agrees that Client and/or its Authorized Persons may access the Sites through the World Wide Web or other Internet service which is not necessarily secure, and Bank of America does not warrant that such system is secure. Client agrees to be bound by all communications (and the consequences thereof) placed on, executed through or facilitated by the Sites that are accompanied by a valid User ID and a valid Access Code assigned to Client or an Authorized Person. Upon becoming aware of, or if Client suspects, a technical failure or any improper access to or use of the Sites or Access Codes by any Authorized Person or other person, Client shall promptly notify Bank of America of such occurrence, and shall, as promptly as practicable, to the extent any improper access or use is by an Authorized Person, take immediate actions to terminate such Authorized Person’s access to and use of the Sites. Bank of America reserves the right to limit or terminate Client’s or any Authorized Person’s access to and use of the Sites immediately and without notice. "

Kind regards,

Mt.Gox : The Leading International Bitcoin Exchange.
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February 16, 2012, 03:27:19 AM
 #15

Mt. Gox you just earned my business today!

Thanks for the prompt and thorough responses!!!

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February 16, 2012, 05:05:09 AM
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So I now have to go through the same bs as opening and using a bank account. Basically defeats the whole idea of Bitcoin. Think I'll just stick to my bank account then and dump the coins I have on the already failing market before this goes into effect.

Losing hundreds of Bitcoins with the best scammers in the business - BFL, Avalon, KNC, HashFast.
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February 16, 2012, 05:14:51 AM
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So I now have to go through the same bs as opening and using a bank account. Basically defeats the whole idea of Bitcoin....

Bitcoin does not end with MtGox.  What are you doing here ?
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February 16, 2012, 05:24:13 AM
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So I now have to go through the same bs as opening and using a bank account. Basically defeats the whole idea of Bitcoin....

Bitcoin does not end with MtGox.  What are you doing here ?

It's a bad sign. What's the point of Bitcoin if it becomes strangled by banking rules and regulations is my point. Why not just keep and use my over regulated bank accounts? I'm not dumping my mining rigs yet, but I'm moving on from Gox.

Losing hundreds of Bitcoins with the best scammers in the business - BFL, Avalon, KNC, HashFast.
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February 16, 2012, 05:34:15 AM
 #19

So I now have to go through the same bs as opening and using a bank account. Basically defeats the whole idea of Bitcoin....

Bitcoin does not end with MtGox.  What are you doing here ?

It's a bad sign. What's the point of Bitcoin if it becomes strangled by banking rules and regulations is my point. Why not just keep and use my over regulated bank accounts? I'm not dumping my mining rigs yet, but I'm moving on from Gox.

Or we can forego the anonymity aspect of Bitcoin (for the time being), thus allowing us to move forward and become mainstream, always knowing that not only an anonymity aspect exist, but will be developed even stronger.

~Bruno~
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February 16, 2012, 05:47:42 AM
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So I now have to go through the same bs as opening and using a bank account. Basically defeats the whole idea of Bitcoin....

Bitcoin does not end with MtGox.  What are you doing here ?

It's a bad sign. What's the point of Bitcoin if it becomes strangled by banking rules and regulations is my point. Why not just keep and use my over regulated bank accounts? I'm not dumping my mining rigs yet, but I'm moving on from Gox.

Or we can forego the anonymity aspect of Bitcoin (for the time being), thus allowing us to move forward and become mainstream, always knowing that not only an anonymity aspect exist, but will be developed even stronger.

~Bruno~


There is no point in fighting a system that will crush you, when you can beat (And not Bit!) the system from inside out. And who knows, once everything is done, some well established company will see the beauty of Bitcoin and may start rethinking their business model. Still, our goal is to push forward Bitcoin and make it mainstream and once a large number of transaction are made using BTCs, then... we will be able to enjoy Bitcoin's amazing features. Once again our goal as an exchange is not to think 3 month ahead, but at least 3 years ahead of things!

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