Never make a ROI

[DrG]

IMO its very hard to make ROI now better buy bitcoin directly.

I disagree with that assessment.

You sound just like a broker who says "Invest in these mutual funds from our company, they are better", and then gets paid commission for it.

Anybody that says to just buy BTC and hold it is just advising people to buy BTC so that more demand is created, so that they can sell the BTC they already have mined at a higher price.

haha.   While that may very well be true, the OP proposed an idea and asked for input.  We're all giving our opinions - intelligent or asinine.  Feel free to buy up miners and mine away.  As long as you're not pushing GHash.IO I'm OK with that.

Sadly if people weren't so competitive (I refrained from calling them greedy since almost all will be losing) then people wouldn't be forced to colocate and everybody could have a simple miner at home to support the network.  Now everybody has to have their miners hosted  

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[Bicknellski]

IMO its very hard to make ROI now better buy bitcoin directly.

I disagree with that assessment.

You sound just like a broker who says "Invest in these mutual funds from our company, they are better", and then gets paid commission for it.

Anybody that says to just buy BTC and hold it is just advising people to buy BTC so that more demand is created, so that they can sell the BTC they already have mined at a higher price.

haha.   While that may very well be true, the OP proposed an idea and asked for input.  We're all giving our opinions - intelligent or asinine.  Feel free to buy up miners and mine away.  As long as you're not pushing GHash.IO I'm OK with that.

Sadly if people weren't so competitive (I refrained from calling them greedy since almost all will be losing) then people wouldn't be forced to colocate and everybody could have a simple miner at home to support the network.  Now everybody has to have their miners hosted  

Need another coin a serious edit to Bitcoin for that to work.

[Cranky4u]

ROI depends on how big you see your system. If it is limited to a crypto hardware and supporting CPU then your system input constraints (such as elec prices) will smash your ROI into the floor. On the other hand, expand your vision to include the energy source and derive a method to control it, such as adding a solar panel / wind turbine to power your hardware, then your system might take longer to break even but the ROI is ongoing.

Yes the ROI is diminishing however it does allow you to continue using older generation miners and updating them through profits.

This is the approach I have used and although I am not packing a 10THs facility, I do own my 1.5kW solar array plus the Jally plus the R-box plus the 3 * 6770s plus the 2 * AMD 6 cores that were ALL paid for out of an initail $500 investment.

Yes, this is less profit than having bought just BTC however I am more comfortable working with and understanding hardware/ software than I am with world economics...

P.S the 1.5kW array is more than enough to power sufficient ASICs to make it worth my while as each gen improves more hash for less watts. As the current 3rd gen stabilises, I will grab a few more to my collection. 

Overall, work out a business plan that works for you and stick to it!

[DrG]

ROI depends on how big you see your system. If it is limited to a crypto hardware and supporting CPU then your system input constraints (such as elec prices) will smash your ROI into the floor. On the other hand, expand your vision to include the energy source and derive a method to control it, such as adding a solar panel / wind turbine to power your hardware, then your system might take longer to break even but the ROI is ongoing.

Yes the ROI is diminishing however it does allow you to continue using older generation miners and updating them through profits.

This is the approach I have used and although I am not packing a 10THs facility, I do own my 1.5kW solar array plus the Jally plus the R-box plus the 3 * 6770s plus the 2 * AMD 6 cores that were ALL paid for out of an initail $500 investment.

Yes, this is less profit than having bought just BTC however I am more comfortable working with and understanding hardware/ software than I am with world economics...

P.S the 1.5kW array is more than enough to power sufficient ASICs to make it worth my while as each gen improves more hash for less watts. As the current 3rd gen stabilises, I will grab a few more to my collection. 

Overall, work out a business plan that works for you and stick to it!

The problem with that is that it's so geographically limiting.  Very few people would call Southern California technologically backwards and yet mining is essentially not happening here due to the insane power prices.  Even if we wanted to go off grid and put up our own solar there is so much red tape with the state gov because of environmental BS.

This is why everybody is colocating.  For me it's not worth the hassle of setting up solar for $50k.  I would rather buy a house in WA and then make a business of running other people's eq than mining myself 

[thresher]

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time. 
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol. 

[Destiffmast]

Even with GPU now is hard to make a profit... My electric bill is far higher than my profit at the moment, but if prices go up might be worth in the long run - plus my home is really warn and no need to use tumble dryer LOL.

[snowcrawl]

You are right, I did miscalculate my power costs.

Those Antminers are still running, and will be profitable until roughly October/2014.

Thank you for pointing that out.

For those of us who have been mining during your same time frame, as close as we have been able to get to making ROI, we recognize that doing so has been very much dependent upon starting mining at that particular time (ie. in late 2013).  An opportunity that is vanishingly small, considering the considerable cost of home mining equipment.  Timing was everything.   The window for that opportunity has been rapidly closing over the past few months as the difficulty level has increased.  It is not worth bragging about getting ROI because it can encourage new miners to believe that can do the same.

[Bitsaurus]

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time. 
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol. 

You must be talking fiat ROI.  Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC.  I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

[thresher]

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time. 
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol. 

You must be talking fiat ROI.  Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC.  I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.   

[DrG]

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time. 
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol. 

You must be talking fiat ROI.  Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC.  I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.   

May I ask which machines you purchased.   The only ASICs known to easily do BTC ROI have been the Avalon Batch 1 & 2 units and the initial KNC deliveries.  All the other miners are struggling to make BTC ROI including Bitmain S1 buyers as far as I can tell from forum posts.  Did you buy your eq secondhand/used?

[cr4sh0verride]

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time.  
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol.  

You must be talking fiat ROI.  Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC.  I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

Yes this is what most people get confused with but keep in mind that's all we have to use now

You can buy a miner with Fiat or Bitcoin but when you're paying with Fiat and getting returns in Bitcoin that obviously muddies the waters as the price fluctuates

The calculations are not hard to do by yourself instead of relying on all these websites to do it for you and it comes to one very clear conclusion

There is very little on the market at this point that you will get a ROI whether its BTC or Fiat (keep in mind that you calculate how many BTC's you can buy right now for that amount) with a modest increase in difficulty 10-15% over a 6 month period

Lets not forget you may want to sell during a bubble that might be occurring during that period whereby it's much easier to liquidate the coins you already have

[thresher]

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time. 
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol. 

You must be talking fiat ROI.  Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC.  I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.   

May I ask which machines you purchased.   The only ASICs known to easily do BTC ROI have been the Avalon Batch 1 & 2 units and the initial KNC deliveries.  All the other miners are struggling to make BTC ROI including Bitmain S1 buyers as far as I can tell from forum posts.  Did you buy your eq secondhand/used?

Antminer s1s, purchased 2 new when they had the fixed price that wasn't changing late feb and  2 mid march (coupons on these).  I know exactly what they have made, as they have only been on egluis pool, with brief periods on their backup pools (unlike gpus which have been at every coin imaginable.)  They were all overclocked at slightly over 200ghs.
I started with gpus, and believed all the nonsense spread by everyone about how bitcoin asics suck, you never see roi, and my gpus can be sold for 75 percent purchase price.......lmao, how did I believe that shit.

[ChuckBuck]

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time. 
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol. 

You must be talking fiat ROI.  Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC.  I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.   

May I ask which machines you purchased.   The only ASICs known to easily do BTC ROI have been the Avalon Batch 1 & 2 units and the initial KNC deliveries.  All the other miners are struggling to make BTC ROI including Bitmain S1 buyers as far as I can tell from forum posts.  Did you buy your eq secondhand/used?

Not true, every January through early March Antminer S1 owner has ROI'ed:

http://retrocalc.net/

[snowcrawl]

Also worth considering that just barely making ROI is still not worth bragging about, or something to equate to being a good investment, contrary to the misleading salespitch used by sellers of mining hardware or cloudmining contracts that have been making them a handsome profit.  You could have alternatively put the money in a GIC, and rename that GIC "the alternative to bitcoin mining GIC", where the maturity date would coincide roughly with when you would have reached ROI had you instead been mining bitcoins.

[zvs]

You can roi. I have and i'm no wizard.
I don't understand the miner price today though as they were cheaper, or the same price 2-3 weeks ago, and it is a later point in time. 
Companies just ripping people off from recent price increase right now.

Now anyone who is trying to mine alts with gpus these days, myself included, needs some wizard assistance cause were all fucked lol. 

You must be talking fiat ROI.  Fiat ROI just depends on timing - you buy the miner when BTC value is low, mine and hope BTC goes up to cover your cost.

BTC ROI is pretty much impossible with any ASIC.  I think the naysayers are talking about BTC ROI.

I have made over fiat return on antminers, and I am a week away from btc roi (technically the asics have made there btc roi price up, but I added in the cost of power and psus to be fair) in around 3 months.
-This assumes straight mining numbers (- power and psus), and if I held every btc mined, and sold them all this second.
A hell of allot of people used btc asics way before I ever did, and I do not see how they could not have gotten roi.   

May I ask which machines you purchased.   The only ASICs known to easily do BTC ROI have been the Avalon Batch 1 & 2 units and the initial KNC deliveries.  All the other miners are struggling to make BTC ROI including Bitmain S1 buyers as far as I can tell from forum posts.  Did you buy your eq secondhand/used?

Not true, every January through early March Antminer S1 owner has ROI'ed:

http://retrocalc.net/

No clue what an Antminer is, since checking information on ASICs hasn't been worth the time since Avalon batch 2, but even if it does show some greater # of bitcoins, when were these Antminers paid for?

Not before mid-November hopefully?

lol.

[ChuckBuck]

For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you?  Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment.  He'll always have a place in my BTC heart....

[zvs]

For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you?  Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment.  He'll always have a place in my BTC heart....

I don't know if those numbers are correct, it's saying 200ghash would make .05 bitcoins a day in mid-february.  doesn't seem correct to me.

but sure doesn't hold a candle to buying a radeon 5830 for $100 from newegg in 2011 and paying it off in like 2 1/2 days

[ChuckBuck]

For example I purchased my first Antminer S1 through Sushi's group buy in early February for 1.45BTC

I set it up and overclocked it to 200 GH/s and started mining on February 12th.

Using http://retrocalc.net/ I see I've roughly made 0.8 off that 1 Antminer S1(2.24 Total BTC mined).

I don't think making nearly $500 off of one miner(out of several I bought) is just barely making ROI, do you?  Another factor is I luckily have free electricity, so helps a great deal.

Now I've sold most of my Ants, but I've held onto Antminer #1, as that little guy is proof that you can ROI in this difficult environment.  He'll always have a place in my BTC heart....

I don't know if those numbers are correct, it's saying 200ghash would make .05 bitcoins a day in mid-february.  doesn't seem correct to me.

but sure doesn't hold a candle to buying a radeon 5830 for $100 from newegg in 2011 and paying it off in like 2 1/2 days

Yea, I'm late to the game(started late 2013) but I can assure you I was making around 0.04-0.05 Bitcoins in mid-February since difficulty was at 2.6 Billion

https://bitcoinwisdom.com/bitcoin/difficulty

I wish I had mined in the GPU era, but oh well that boat has sailed.

You can be sure that the retrocalculator is pretty spot on as it pulls it's database from http://blockexplorer.com/q/nethash

Even with 1% variance due to pool luck or any outages, you can see I've made out with that single Ant.

Much much harder nowadays obviously with each difficulty increase, but not impossible as most would have you believe.  You have to pounce on the right hardware at the right price point.  If you aren't close to mining ROI, best to sell it right away for BTC to recoup losses and turn the sale into net profit.  Also, it doesn't hurt to have cheap or free electric!

[ShakyhandsBTCer]

You will probably be better off simply buying bitcoin as the difficulty will likely rise much faster then the price of bitcoin.

With that being said you can potentially get ROI if you pay a cheap enough price, it is just that there are very few (or no) people selling at low enough prices for buying a miner to make sense.

[snowcrawl]

Maybe if the money you were investing was obtained from illegal business activities.  Chalk up the not making ROI to the cost of the money laundering operation.