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Author Topic: Why China’s Political Model Is Superior  (Read 3103 times)
Hawker
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February 17, 2012, 06:14:07 PM
 #1

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/16/opinion/why-chinas-political-model-is-superior.html

For those without free access: http://pastie.org/private/uxnuzaibibu562qqydlmyg

I expected to see the usual communist claptrap but the writer is a venture capital guy and he makes a very strong anti-democratic case.  

What do you guys think?

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February 17, 2012, 06:29:57 PM
 #2

The site says I have to log in.

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Hawker
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February 17, 2012, 06:32:18 PM
 #3

The site says I have to log in.

Added a link to my OP: http://pastie.org/private/uxnuzaibibu562qqydlmyg

Thanks for the heads up.

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February 17, 2012, 07:37:48 PM
 #4

What do you guys think?

Both systems are shit.  Wink

All systems are shit. Wink

There are too many conflicting objectives.

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February 18, 2012, 07:22:59 AM
 #5

This article is complete biased nonsense with weak arguments. Communism is not superior to ANY political system with the exception of fascism.

Look at who wrote the article:
Quote
"By ERIC X. LI"

Quote
"The West is an experiment in democracy."

WTF? The author's mother was experimenting in idiotism when she developed his brain.
Bitcoin Oz
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Wat


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February 18, 2012, 07:27:11 AM
 #6

The US is throwing everyone in prison to compete with china on wages....thanks for incentivising the police state.

Hawker
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February 18, 2012, 08:43:10 AM
 #7

This article is complete biased nonsense with weak arguments. Communism is not superior to ANY political system with the exception of fascism.

Look at who wrote the article:
Quote
"By ERIC X. LI"

Quote
"The West is an experiment in democracy."

WTF? The author's mother was experimenting in idiotism when she developed his brain.

Maybe you should read it?  Communism isn't mentioned.

Vitalik Buterin
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February 18, 2012, 10:40:34 AM
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http://www.ted.com/talks/yasheng_huang.html

Argumentum ad lunam: the fallacy that because Bitcoin's price is rising really fast the currency must be a speculative bubble and/or Ponzi scheme.
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February 18, 2012, 11:25:46 AM
 #9

article doesn't explain china. Just points out that democracy in usa is overruled by money
Vitalik Buterin
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February 18, 2012, 11:35:00 AM
 #10

article doesn't explain china. Just points out that democracy in usa is overruled by money

"special interests manipulate the people into voting for ever-lower taxes and higher government spending"

Democracy in the USA isn't just overruled by money, it's also the voters themselves that are overruled by money. This was the core argument against democracy way back in the 19th century: that the average person is not informed enough to know how to vote, so it would just give more power to the demagogues.

Me? I'd be fine with whatever model of government as long as there was freer immigration and genuine choices for individuals to pick what country suits them best so we can get some competition going to see what model works best (including policies like moving more services to states and municipalities to promote this). It might seem like it disagrees with my general libertarian ethic, but I think that if you talk to an anarcho-capitalist in the right way I'm sure even they would be fine with the idea of private cities and the like if the free market decides that vertically integrating health, education, insurance and the like is the most efficient option (I'd prefer not trusting that much to a single entity, but I wouldn't deny others the right to do the same - it's sort of like an iPhone vs Android debate).

Argumentum ad lunam: the fallacy that because Bitcoin's price is rising really fast the currency must be a speculative bubble and/or Ponzi scheme.
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February 18, 2012, 12:28:33 PM
 #11

article doesn't explain china. Just points out that democracy in usa is overruled by money

Read it again - that is absolutely not what it says.

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February 18, 2012, 07:24:23 PM
 #12

Quote
History does not bode well for the American way. Indeed, faith-based ideological hubris may soon drive democracy over the cliff.

I hope he is right and that Bitcoin is the catalyst for it.

Do you think America will be better off with a Chinese style autocracy like Lin advocates or something else?


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February 19, 2012, 09:29:57 AM
 #13

China is doing great now because they have opened their borders to the world, but will crash in two years.
Then their "system" wont appear so great.

Corruption Threatens China’s Future
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/2007/10/09/corruption-threatens-china-s-future/g4




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February 19, 2012, 12:06:18 PM
 #14

China is doing great now because they have opened their borders to the world, but will crash in two years.
Then their "system" wont appear so great.

Corruption Threatens China’s Future
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/2007/10/09/corruption-threatens-china-s-future/g4


The American media have a love hate relationship with China.  They would love to have a strong federal government that could regulate the minuta of every economic activity in America, but hate China or perceived human rights abuses.

I travel to China 4 or 5 times a year; sometimes living in China for almost 6 months out of the year.  I don't go to foreigner areas, ride the normal public transportation, and live in normal people's homes.  This is what I experience.

CORRUPTION
I agree.  The corruption is terrible.  Imagine taking a family member to the doctor and having to tip the doctor so he gives your family member the best service.  Consumer protection is terrible.  There are common scams of getting people to pay thousands of RMB for worthless vitamins because it is "traditional Chinese medicine."

The police are basically worthless; nothing more than bad traffic enforcement or people that tell you the directions.  If there is a problem with someone else, you win by making the biggest scene.

This does not even go into the corruption that is high in the Chinese housing market.  Local governments get a large part of their budget from land development.  They stole land from prior owners, give it to the developers, and take a nice portion for their personal fee.  Now the housing market is crashing.  Some homes in China have reduced their selling price by 70%.

POLLUTION
The first time I went to China I stayed in Shenzhen, the first SEZ of china and borders Hong Kong.  The pollution was so bad I got an ulcer in the back of my throat.  Now, most of the time I go to Guangzhou and stay in the countryside with relatives.  I stay away from the city if I can.

LABOR
Chinese people do work hard, but no harder than Americans.  When I first went to China I had trouble with their afternoon naps.  I just couldn't follow their lead.  What is terrible about Chinese labor is their laws.  They are not enforced.  If a Chinese employee is late for work or makes a mistake, then the employeer cuts the employees pay.  If the employee quits their job before their next paycheck.  It is common that they will never receive that paycheck.  Non-payment of employees is common.

PROTECTIONISM
The myth that Chinese people don't buy a lot of things is false.  China is the largest purchaser of luxurious items now.  What China does though is require any companies to sell their products in China to join with a Chinese company.

THE COMMUNIST PARTY OF CHINA AND THE RULE OF LAW
There is not really any laws in China.  5000 years of civilization has not changed the fact that the Party is the law now.  Henry Kissinger may say China has 5000 years of diplomatic history and have many tricks up their sleeve, but a totalitarian party that crushes any revolt by the people is a party that is in fear of losing power.  That fear makes them short sighted.  Until the Party is overthrown there is no way for China to be a model for other nations.  If a man gets to rich and successful he is put in prison.  If people protest for more rights, they are stomped on.

THE PEOPLE OF CHINA
This is the strength of China.  People with dreams and passions.  The people of China want China to be a modern nation.  They don't care about being a superpower, but want to be equal members in the world and given respect.  The people of China are some of the most hospitable people I have ever met.  While not all people achieve great knowledge, generally people of the nation see the pursuit of knowledge as a virtues endeavor.

Introducing constraints to the economy only serves to limit what can be economical.
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February 19, 2012, 01:17:21 PM
 #15

Superior my ass,

nytimes are full of idiots.

Hawker
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February 19, 2012, 01:33:19 PM
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Good post stochastic.  I've been to Shenzhen a few times and it is hideously polluted.  All of your points about the utter absence of law matched exactly my experiences.  Finding someone to trust was so hard Sad  And even then, the contracts are written in a way that assumed each party is a crook and where there are inspections, you use a different inspector every time and never give a clue in advance who the inspector is.

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February 19, 2012, 03:40:56 PM
 #17

If you think crushing kids, and making sure they are dead is superior, then there is something wrong with you OP.

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February 19, 2012, 03:53:23 PM
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If you think crushing kids, and making sure they are dead is superior, then there is something wrong with you OP.

You didn't read the article.

Kettenmonster
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February 19, 2012, 05:17:20 PM
 #19

... Communism is not superior to ANYpolitical system with the exception of fascism.
Almost true. We (this world with its known history) have no resilient experience with communism.
Those so called communists are violating the basic communistic rule: "common ownership of the means of production"
China is just another Oligarchy, so nothing superior to any other regime on this planet. Just its bias is slightly tuned differently.

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February 19, 2012, 07:42:27 PM
 #20

Skimmed over it, then wondered whether the author is one of China's paid bloggers. And that's where the thinking stopped. The superior system paying its supportive bloggers? They're just bigger, not better.

Smart > Libertarian > Democratic Capitalist > Random Socialist/Capitalist hybrids > Communist > Military-based Dictatorships

Where "Smart" would be a system in which the participants are intelligent and well-informed and acting accordingly, which is an utopia. Each of the jumps is huge. I'd give a lot to get a stable Libertarian ecosystem to live in, but they always get killed by jealous zealots before they can play their real strength.

China would be with the "Random Socialist/Capitalist hybrids". As they shifted to capitalism, their power multiplied. But it's still just blind hits, not even close to what a billion-people-country should be able to achieve. I give them credit for acknowledging human reproduction is getting out of hand, this is a topic that is shunned elsewhere. But in terms of economy, they should start learning from Taiwan and Japan... oh, but they hate them to much, it's totally unthinkable. You know, the Japanese and WW2! And Taiwan should belong to China!! Childish.
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