Changing Bitcoin into PoS(Proof of Stake)

[Joshuar]

So I've given this some thought. What would happen if Bitcoin was changed to PoS(Piece Proof of Stake), and mining becomes replaced by "forging" or "hatching"? Wouldn't that be better for bitcoin overall?

There would be less power consumption, much faster transactions because you won't have to worry about orphaned blocks, and more can be included(chat messaging etc etc)

I know there are some major risks with PoS, but isn't there a way(sometime in the future) to eliminate those risks and change Bitcoin to PoS?

[franky1]

So I've given this some thought. What would happen if Bitcoin was changed to PoS(Piece of Stake), and mining becomes replaced by "forging" or "hatching"? Wouldn't that be better for bitcoin overall?

There would be less power consumption, much faster transactions because you won't have to worry about orphaned blocks, and more can be included(chat messaging etc etc)

I know there are some major risks with PoS, but isn't there a way(sometime in the future) to eliminate those risks and change Bitcoin to PoS?

bitcoin foundation, mark karpales instantly get majority of new coins, simply using their GPU.. coz they own a large stake.

i see no benefit of PoS for average joe. all it does is reduce the electricity bills of the already rich and corrupt bitcoin hoarders whilst making them alot more coin. ruining any chances of new people gaining a slice of the pie

[cr1776]

If it was changed, it would not be bitcoin, but an alt-coin, perhaps called POScoin.  

To truly find out what would happen, one would have to fork the software and fork the blockchain at some point and create an alt as POS.  Then it would be interesting to see what happens with the new fork and the old.  There have been a number of discussions about POS here which detail a lot of the questions.  

(Must be a slip to say 'POS' with the P being 'piece'...kind of makes one think of the other POS alt-coins where the S is not stake).

[phillipsjk]

PoS actually refers to "Proof of Stake."

And, no, Bitcoin proper will never implement proof-of-stake: even if it is objectively better.

Bitcoin is a revolutionary experiment. It is the "first secure networked application ever created in the history of computers." (Out-of-context Bruce Schneier quote) Governments and banks will attack it through legal and technical means. It may only have a small niche over the next 50 years. If that happens, it will be OK: because it is just an experiment.

Replacing "Proof-of-work" with "Proof-of-Stake" would invalidate the experiment. We don't really know if a Decentralized (which is not an easy goal in itself) Proof-of-Stake currency would be a secure as proof-of-work. It is still an open question if the Bitcoin network can withstand state-sponsored attacks. Because it is so revolutionary, states may be reluctant to attack the network due to it's possible strategic importance.

[inBitweTrust]

So I've given this some thought. What would happen if Bitcoin was changed to PoS(Piece of Stake),...

Proof of Stake?

Unlikely with bitcoin. The inherent weaknesses within PoW are also its advantages.

The trouble with Proof-of-stake is that there is nothing at stake. Bitcoin derives its value not just from the network effect of adoption and development but the billions of dollars invested in the hardware which secures the protocol. Additionally, most PoS currencies unfairly favor large bag holders and original investors.

[inBitweTrust]

This is a good thread that explains the weaknesses of PoS as well (especially with regards to the History attack)-

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=615843.0

[BurtW]

Perhaps the author made a small mistake and meant to title the thread:

"Changing Bitcoin into PoS(Piece of Shit)"

Perhaps?  Otherwise, I don't get the joke.

[Joshuar]

So I've given this some thought. What would happen if Bitcoin was changed to PoS(Piece of Stake),...

Proof of Stake?

Unlikely with bitcoin. The inherent weaknesses within PoW are also its advantages.

The trouble with Proof-of-stake is that there is nothing at stake. Bitcoin derives its value not just from the network effect of adoption and development but the billions of dollars invested in the hardware which secures the protocol. Additionally, most PoS currencies unfairly favor large bag holders and original investors.

True, I forgot that PoS gives interest according to the # of coins you hold. It would actually be easier for the rich to get richer through PoS(since mining can sometimes be unprofitable), and the poorer ones would hardly get any coins, not to mention they probably wont be able to keep their coins in their wallet for long for it to stake, unlike the rich.

So yes you guys are right, PoS favors the rich largely over the poorer, even more than mining in PoW does.

[odolvlobo]

If Bitcoin required the use of a piece of steak, I think vegetarians, vegans, and animal lovers around the would would revolt and it would never become adopted.

[pummle]

When I saw the title of this thread I thought he said "Piece of steak", and I thought it was going to be an account of how he started with bitcoins and exchanged them to get his dinner. That would have been more interesting.

[ljudotina]

PoS actually refers to "Proof of Stake."

No dude...you dont get it. It's not Proof of Stake....it's Piece of stake and will always be that. Stake...we all need some stake...

[Ron~Popeil]

It simply isn't necessary at this point. Maybe in the future as the protocol matures their could be a place for it but the system functions really well as is and the problems that a POW protocol would be designed to fix will probably be addressed in other ways.

[ljudotina]

It simply isn't necessary at this point.

Not only that it is not necessary, it's imposible to do. Hardware manufacturers have their hands on BTC  decision makers and they wont let anything change the way it works. I don't know how many of you realize this, but BTC decision makers are payed by same companys that are making ASIc hardware...how neat is that....

[neofelis]

NXT is 100% Proof of Stake and seems to me to be a good protocol.  Sure the initial investors will be gozillionaires (so are the bitcoin early adopters), but eventually all those coins will be relatively evenly distributed if there are enough people involved in the network.  Even hoarders will eventually succumb to the lure of high prices and sell their coins for either goods/services or fiat.  The price will fall temporarily and people will scoop up cheap coins and there will be a more even distribution.  Plus, the whole electricity savings thing, I think, will be a big issue in the future. Sadly, right now, you have to be pretty rich to afford mining…..

[inBitweTrust]

NXT is 100% Proof of Stake and seems to me to be a good protocol.  Sure the initial investors will be gozillionaires (so are the bitcoin early adopters), but eventually all those coins will be relatively evenly distributed if there are enough people involved in the network.  Even hoarders will eventually succumb to the lure of high prices and sell their coins for either goods/services or fiat.  The price will fall temporarily and people will scoop up cheap coins and there will be a more even distribution.  Plus, the whole electricity savings thing, I think, will be a big issue in the future. Sadly, right now, you have to be pretty rich to afford mining…..

Besides the additional security concerns with NXT and PoS I don't see how the direction will move to a more egalitarian distribution model. Centralization of mining I believe is merely temporary(Asic space heaters and hot water heaters may be a great future to recycle all that wasted heat. )  Bitcoin and Nxt both have finite supplies and when most of the btc is mined all those miners will have to depend upon transaction fees for profit just like in NXT forging. The difference between the two is that with bitcoin their are high maintenance(electricity and equip) costs; profits from transaction fees are linear and competitive with new entrants adopting new technology everyday. With NXT you can effortlessly scoop up most the transaction fees with no competition further securing your dominance. Large bag holders from nxt may eventually be able to hold onto their initial investment and use the "interest" from transaction fees as spending money.

This is further exacerbated with crypto currencies because a portion of those anonymous investors will choose to not pay taxes thus aren't subject to progressive policies of wealth redistribution as we see with fiat.

[BurtW]

aren't subject to progressive policies of wealth redistribution as we see with fiat.

Thank God.

[inBitweTrust]

aren't subject to progressive policies of wealth redistribution as we see with fiat.

Thank God.

Agreed, but this also further stresses the importance of using a protocol that doesn't unfairly benefit early investors. There will always be income disparity as their should be based upon different individuals efforts but we don't want to live in a society where a 75 people control a bulk of the monetary supply just because they were at the right place at the right time.

While nxt may possibly have a similar distribution curves to btc currently it is likely to become more imbalanced in the future based upon how its designed. At least PoSv tries to partially solve this dilemma, albeit could easily be gamed.

[BawsyBoss]

Is PoS based directly on wealth? I'm not sure of how it works and would appreciate a link related to this.

[ThePurplePlanet]

Someone is already doing that  

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=584719.0

However
Here is the problem of PoS .

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=615843.msg6751334#msg6751334

  which basically means current holders will depend on the goodwill of past holders not to attack or if you want to avoid that dependence you create centralized trust which is something subject to government/bankers attacks by coercing those individuals holding the trust

Even if you exclude the history attack problem which is fatal large stakeholders will never be able to avoid government influence

If you can identify the minters which are clearing the transactions you can ask them to obey all govs regulations and money transmission rules. It is far easier to identify stakeholders than miners

Those are some reasons I am personally against PoS fork of bitcoin proposed in the first link

[Joshuar]

Perhaps the author made a small mistake and meant to title the thread:

"Changing Bitcoin into PoS(Piece of Shit)"

Perhaps?  Otherwise, I don't get the joke.

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I now noticed I wrote Piece of Stake, instead of Proof of Stake.