[ANN] Max Keiser's website PirateMyFilm.com now accepts ONLY Bitcoins!

[Fizzgig]

Just sign up, pledge money and then you are ready to own stock, if the film gets the required pledges you then purchase the stock. After you have your stock, not sure what you do but I'm just doing it to donate to films I want to see made.

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[BTCurious]

Just sign up, pledge money and then you are ready to own stock, if the film gets the required pledges you then purchase the stock. After you have your stock, not sure what you do but I'm just doing it to donate to films I want to see made.

From what I understand: If the movie would be sold or advertised on, it could produce revenue, and you could be paid dividends on your shares. The "Screw banks, use Bitcoin" movie however will be free, so buying shares will just be in support of getting the film made, as you said.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Just sign up, pledge money and then you are ready to own stock, if the film gets the required pledges you then purchase the stock. After you have your stock, not sure what you do but I'm just doing it to donate to films I want to see made.

From what I understand: If the movie would be sold or advertised on, it could produce revenue, and you could be paid dividends on your shares. The "Screw banks, use Bitcoin" movie however will be free, so buying shares will just be in support of getting the film made, as you said.

Obviously, any dividends would be paid in bitcoins?

[BitPay Business Solutions]

Obviously, any dividends would be paid in bitcoins?

Yes.  PMF is setup that revenue-generating films can pay dividends, in BITCOINS, to shareholders.  This is a freely distributed project so unless we let YouTube spam it with ads, it won't have any revenue.

[Stephen Gornick]

Guys Max is getting anxious, I just got tihs email from him

we need bitcoin people to signup and reserve shares in 'screw'

or, we go with paypal and try again with bitcoin next time... ?

Please go to http://www.piratemyfilm.com/projects/304 and reserve shares in this video project.  The cost is as little as $5 and you can pay with bitcoin!

88% funded. 

Just 36 shares remain.

Shares are $5 each and for now, you are simply reserving them.  Payment (in bitcoins, at market rate I'm assuming) is made after all shares are reserved.

 - http://www.piratemyfilm.com/projects/304

[Wandering Albatross]

I've never gotten around to figuring out PMF.

Ideally PMF would get it together with Bitcoin and I would be offered and offer exactly one thing each:

 - They tell me:  A Bitcoin address to send Bitcoin to (green)
 - I tell them:  A Bitcoin address to remit any proceeds to.

I don't want to dick around with bit-pay accounts, PMF accounts, 'following' this and that, and on and on.  Bitcoin should be stone simple and anonymous and as best I can tell, it _could_ be.  I have not a whole lot more interest in having a bit-pay account than having a pay-pal account to be honest.

I completely agree that PFM should handle all transactions and not use a middle-man, escrow, bank or whatever you want to call bit-pay.

Couple of clarifying points.  This film isn't meant to produce revenue as it will be offered for free.  So there's no dividends for this film.
If it's greenlighted than your donation is kept by the filmmakers.

I think the reason PMF is using bit-pay is so that bit-pay handles paying people back if the film doesn't get fully funded or in the case of a film that returns dividends bit-pay would pay those dividends on behalf of PFM.

[BitPay Business Solutions]

I think the reason PMF is using bit-pay is so that bit-pay handles paying people back if the film doesn't get fully funded or in the case of a film that returns dividends bit-pay would pay those dividends on behalf of PFM.

The main reason is that they need a fully automated system to set prices in dollars, monitor the bitcoin network, and automatically record the specific order in their system as being paid when the bitcoins are received.  

They could do this themselves with a home-grown system, but it will likely take them several months and it will be full of bugs.  Our system is far faster to implement and more stable than a home-grown alternative.

Here's a good outline of the do-it-yourself approach, and how bit-pay makes it easier

https://bit-pay.com/api.html

The key is that merchants don't have to know anything about bitcoin, or how it works, to accept bitcoins easily.

[Technomage]

90% funded. 31 shares remain. Keep it up guys!

[Raoul Duke]

Ok, reserved 5 shares. Let's get it!

[tvbcof]

I think the reason PMF is using bit-pay is so that bit-pay handles paying people back if the film doesn't get fully funded or in the case of a film that returns dividends bit-pay would pay those dividends on behalf of PFM.

The main reason is that they need a fully automated system to set prices in dollars, monitor the bitcoin network, and automatically record the specific order in their system as being paid when the bitcoins are received.  

They could do this themselves with a home-grown system, but it will likely take them several months and it will be full of bugs.  Our system is far faster to implement and more stable than a home-grown alternative.

Here's a good outline of the do-it-yourself approach, and how bit-pay makes it easier

https://bit-pay.com/api.html

The key is that merchants don't have to know anything about bitcoin, or how it works, to accept bitcoins easily.

I didn't particularly mean to 'dis your service and I think you are doing great things, but I would rather see third-parties avoided when possible.  I, for one, am both annoyed at having to keep track of a zillion accounts all over the place and also sensitive about information within those accounts being leaked.

PMF with their lofty goals, big talk about hating the mainstream markets and financial systems, and not-completely-retarded (if busy) principle actors should be able to figure out 'native' Bitcoin...particularly for a campaign which has no revenue stream.  And if they cannot, surely they can find someone who can.

[Steve]

I didn't particularly mean to 'dis your service and I think you are doing great things, but I would rather see third-parties avoided when possible.  I, for one, am both annoyed at having to keep track of a zillion accounts all over the place and also sensitive about information within those accounts being leaked.

PMF with their lofty goals, big talk about hating the mainstream markets and financial systems, and not-completely-retarded (if busy) principle actors should be able to figure out 'native' Bitcoin...particularly for a campaign which has no revenue stream.  And if they cannot, surely they can find someone who can.

We view what we do as a service provided to merchants.  Merchants will need to integrate with bitcoin in one way or another and they'll have to hire someone to do it (or spend time doing it themselves).  We offer cost savings by providing similar services to many merchants.  I agree that it's good to have a diversity of solutions available.  We can't be and wouldn't want to be the only ones providing bitcoin merchant solutions.  That would be a single point of failure, which is bad for bitcoin (much like bitcoin is currently very dependent on just a handful of exchanges).  And if it's bad for bitcoin, it's bad for us.

[LoupGaroux]

At 97% right now. 11 shares green lights this project.

[tvbcof]

I didn't particularly mean to 'dis your service and I think you are doing great things, but I would rather see third-parties avoided when possible.  I, for one, am both annoyed at having to keep track of a zillion accounts all over the place and also sensitive about information within those accounts being leaked.

PMF with their lofty goals, big talk about hating the mainstream markets and financial systems, and not-completely-retarded (if busy) principle actors should be able to figure out 'native' Bitcoin...particularly for a campaign which has no revenue stream.  And if they cannot, surely they can find someone who can.

We view what we do as a service provided to merchants.  Merchants will need to integrate with bitcoin in one way or another and they'll have to hire someone to do it (or spend time doing it themselves).  We offer cost savings by providing similar services to many merchants.  I agree that it's good to have a diversity of solutions available.  We can't be and wouldn't want to be the only ones providing bitcoin merchant solutions.  That would be a single point of failure, which is bad for bitcoin (much like bitcoin is currently very dependent on just a handful of exchanges).  And if it's bad for bitcoin, it's bad for us.

I appreciate that Bit-Pay is facilitating adoption by mainstream vendors, and hence my comment.

It does occur to me that a great many economic relationships could be handled by Bitcoin in it's native form and specifically _without_ need for accounts.  If any organization is keen to get me to have an account, I in turn am especially keen to NOT have one with them.  (I'm sick to death of everyone wanting more info on others than they need for their stated business goals and this is really becomming endemic as the Internet evolves which is, to me, one of the reasons that Bitcoin is such a breath of fresh air.)

In the case of PMF, and a lot of other things I've dreamed up, the actual needs are highly simple and there is no need for accounts due to the features inherent in Bitcoin.  As I mentioned earlier, if I have a green address of PMF's, I can send both funds, and instructions (by way of a small transaction for a specific amount.)  PMF need only an address to send what they owe me (refund if not fully funded, or installments in more complex campaigns.)  If they keep open books, I can cross-check that I am not being cheated...and if they won't keep open books there is some problem there and I don't want to be involved.

A solution such as I've outlined should be very easy to secure with no external access at all, and the logic involved in the BTC flows and instruction set should be very straightforward to code.  Have you guys (in bit-pay-land) considered offering a service to make such a solution practical to those who don't absolutely need a pay-pal-esque solution?  Needless to say, you could run in entirely in-house and square with the vendor in ways that users don't care about.

[damnek]

Yellow light is on! Shares are reserved.

[Steve]

A solution such as I've outlined should be very easy to secure with no external access at all, and the logic involved in the BTC flows and instruction set should be very straightforward to code.  Have you guys (in bit-pay-land) considered offering a service to make such a solution practical to those who don't absolutely need a pay-pal-esque solution?  Needless to say, you could run in entirely in-house and square with the vendor in ways that users don't care about.

Bear in mind that only the person raising funds through PMF needs a bit-pay account.  If you're just pledging support for a PMF project, you do not need a bit-pay.com account (unlike Paypal…although I suppose you might be able to pay with credit card through paypal without opening a paypal account).

As for using bitcoin transactions in specific amounts to indicate specific things, while clever (and I see something similar being done with bitcoin options markets), I'm not convinced that's the best approach in the long run.  Creating an "account" for such things doesn't have to be any more onerous or any less private.  And consider that instructions sent via bitcoin transactions is actually putting those instructions out there for all the world to see, which if the bitcoin addresses involved could be traced back to the owner, could be quite revealing.

Instead, you could do something similar to some of the web based wallets, where all information passed to and stored by the service is encrypted and is only decrypted and used on the client machine…on the server side, there would be no ability to decrypt the users' information.  And all communications could be done via some form privacy protecting overlay network ala i2p.  You account(s) with such a service would be identified by a hash of a public key (much like bitcoin).  Depending on the nature of the service, the software on the server may do little more than serve up the software and account data necessary for everything that needs to happen on the client in a p2p fashion.

I definitely would like to make progress in these directions with bit-pay, but at the moment we have so many other things we're working on (and that are much needed) that I doubt we'll do anything on this front very soon.

[Stephen Gornick]

Yellow light is on! Shares are reserved.

Here's how the project goes from Yellow Light to Green Light:

PMF 'Yellow Lights' a project when reservations have reached close to 100% of a project's funding requirement. When the Yellow Light goes on, owners of projects can no longer make changes to their projects and members cannot cancel reservations, but members may initiate or increase share reservations (per member restrictions).
24 hours later, the project automatically gets a 'Green Light' and no more share reservations are accepted. A 'payment window' is opened, and an email is sent to shareholders telling them how to pay for their shares.

Members have 2 days to pay for their shares. After 2 days the first payment window closes while a second payment window is automatically opened (and a new email is sent out). Any members who did not pay for their shares during the first window have another chance to pay, but their reservation has been moved to the end of the queue and there is a risk that others waiting in the queue ('standby') may obtain shares ahead of them.

This process is repeated 2 days later when a third payment window is opened. After which, if there are still shares unaccounted for, the PMF Fund may step in and buy them.

- http://www.piratemyfilm.com/static/how_it_works

Though this project is now oversubscribed by a dozen shares, it possibly could end up with unsold shares yet.  While it is yellow light (a matter of just a few more hours) anyone can still register and reserve shares, or reserve additional shares (up to a maximum of 5 per account).

[Wandering Albatross]

In the case of PMF, and a lot of other things I've dreamed up,

You're not saying that you thought of PFM, right?

the actual needs are highly simple and there is no need for accounts due to the features inherent in Bitcoin.  As I mentioned earlier, if I have a green address of PMF's, I can send both funds, and instructions (by way of a small transaction for a specific amount.)  PMF need only an address to send what they owe me (refund if not fully funded, or installments in more complex campaigns.)  If they keep open books, I can cross-check that I am not being cheated...and if they won't keep open books there is some problem there and I don't want to be involved.

These are good points. I would like to see open books across all/any project that asks for donations. It will happen someday. The sooner the better. Following the money trail will tell you, quickly, a lot about a project or org.

A solution such as I've outlined should be very easy to secure with no external access at all, and the logic involved in the BTC flows and instruction set should be very straightforward to code.  Have you guys (in bit-pay-land) considered offering a service to make such a solution practical to those who don't absolutely need a pay-pal-esque solution?  Needless to say, you could run in entirely in-house and square with the vendor in ways that users don't care about.

If what you're saying is to have bit-pay offer a service, that donors to PFM never see or have to deal with, then yes that would be preferred. bit-pay might take less per transaction but they could still work out something. Of course there will be such a solution written by the community soon so bit-pay will have to look hard at their model and become irrelevant.

I'm not bit-pay-bashing either but the nature of BTC is that of a decentralized, anonymous spend/pay system and it needs to stay that way no matter how many sirens sing their songs of ease-of-use or convenience, etc.

Is all the code for bit-pay free (as-in freedom)?

[tvbcof]

In the case of PMF, and a lot of other things I've dreamed up,

You're not saying that you thought of PFM, right?

No, no.  An earlier adventure that I was thinking about was a way of giving out BTC to the general public to get more people involved.  I envisioned a solution which did not require the recipients to have accounts on the donation system, but the concept was so foriegn as to not be broadly accepted (and a real bitch to try to explain.)

the actual needs are highly simple and there is no need for accounts due to the features inherent in Bitcoin.  As I mentioned earlier, if I have a green address of PMF's, I can send both funds, and instructions (by way of a small transaction for a specific amount.)  PMF need only an address to send what they owe me (refund if not fully funded, or installments in more complex campaigns.)  If they keep open books, I can cross-check that I am not being cheated...and if they won't keep open books there is some problem there and I don't want to be involved.

These are good points. I would like to see open books across all/any project that asks for donations. It will happen someday. The sooner the better. Following the money trail will tell you, quickly, a lot about a project or org.

I could not put it better.  From a system design point of view, I think that the best way to make people feel like they are not being taken advantage of is to have a system so simple that there are few realistic way to do so, and to give the users all the tools they need to verify things to their level of interest.  Simple systems also have other benefits in my experience.

I really like JAV's Instawallet approach.  I have to retain and keep secret one URL, but that's it.  Even if I do my part, he could still take me for all the BTC I have there, but that is clear both through his documentation and from common sense so I just keep some spending money with that service.  JAV never requested more info from me than he needed, and if I want an extra level of privacy from him, I just have to be careful about from whence I access the site.  (I've actually not checked my Instawallet for a while and have more funds there than I should at the moment...though no more than I can afford to lose of course.)

[molecular]

Awesome! Thanks Tony and everyone else involved!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

(I've actually not checked my Instawallet for a while and have more funds there than I should at the moment...though no more than I can afford to lose of course.)

Just like one wouldn't carry their life savings around in their wallet each time they go out in public to go shopping.